Sawed off M79

[General Pain]

I must admit I liked it...

[Ramjam]

I have to say that would be a nice close range last ditch weapon if loaded with a M576 buckshot round.

The recoil might be a bitch but what the hell.

[headquarters]

would such a weapon work effeciently -or would the shorter barrel mean insufficient combustion to get good effect from the buckshot shell ?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well from what I understand of the ammunition, they use a two stage ignition. There's a small high-pressure chamber that ignites first and the gases from that expand into a larger low-pressure chamber and from there propel the warhead.
I think length of barrel makes no difference to combustion but only affects the range and accuracy.

[Legbreaker]

Well firstly I'm VERY concerned about the recoil. There's a reason there's a butt on grenade launchers....

Secondly, I'm worried the barrel being so short might not be able to impart sufficient spin on explosive rounds to arm them. I could be wrong, but if not, you're simply throwing very expensive stones.

I'd rather use a sawn off 8 gauge....

[Targan]

Sawn off M79s were mentioned in a book I read about the SOG in Vietnam so they definitely work. I know that they had a shorter barrel but I can't remember if the butt was sawn off as well.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I'm basically trying to remember what I read in one of those Osprey Men-At-Arms books dealing with Vietnam, I think it stated that the cut down M79s were used specifically as a break contact weapon and were loaded with the buckshot round and not with any of the explosive types. What's the minimum arming distance, something like 14-20 metres or some such? I would think that a radically short barrel would be a serious problem for what Legbreaker mentioned regards getting enough spin to arm the round.
And if I remember right, the colour plates in the Men-At-Arms book showed a US recce guy with a sawn off M79 with the butt cut down to resemble a sawn off shotgun grip just like the pictures posted here by General Pain.

While it hasn't happened to me, I've know guys who have been 'bitten' by the safety catch on the M79 due to the recoil, I think the recoil on the sawn off version would be much, much worse if for no other reasons than there's less weight to absorb recoil and you just cannot brace it in any way.

[pmulcahy11b]

They were also tried wired onto M-16s, something that proved unsatisfactory -- no mounting technique was devised that could bear up to the strain for long.

[headquarters]

Well , in the situation were you would have to use such a beastly weapon cosnidring recoil and all , slight injury from recoil might be the least of your problems.

GP - do I smell a new fav sidearm ?

(Not for use against NPCs folks , such hyper cal guns are used top end PC vs PC arguments in our campaign ..)

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I'm basically trying to remember what I read in one of those Osprey Men-At-Arms books dealing with Vietnam, I think it stated that the cut down M79s were used specifically as a break contact weapon and were loaded with the buckshot round and not with any of the explosive types. What's the minimum arming distance, something like 14-20 metres or some such? I would think that a radically short barrel would be a serious problem for what Legbreaker mentioned regards getting enough spin to arm the round.
And if I remember right, the colour plates in the Men-At-Arms book showed a US recce guy with a sawn off M79 with the butt cut down to resemble a sawn off shotgun grip just like the pictures posted here by General Pain.

While it hasn't happened to me, I've know guys who have been 'bitten' by the safety catch on the M79 due to the recoil, I think the recoil on the sawn off version would be much, much worse if for no other reasons than there's less weight to absorb recoil and you just cannot brace it in any way.

[micromachine]

I seem to remember somewhere that Special Forces (read SEALs and MACVSOG) used these little beauties as a break contact weapon. Operators are always tweaking weapons to get that little extra punch or save the few extra ounces. Sort of like a holdout pistol, it would be used in a situation of last resort.

[jester]

I have seen the same book, and the colour plates ie cartoons showed similiar.

Here is an issue, one due to recoil when using shotguns in the 12 gauge catagory sawn off to that level tend to blow the users head clean off, thus I call BS!

And yes its a single barrel, but the recoil and "whip" action will mess up the shooter.

And a generous GM giving the players such a weapon should be mindful that using buckshot or flachette well, there would be no arming distance so pooff the hostiles get all the negative effects.

[headquarters]

I dont follow..?

Do you mean to say that usingthis or a 12 gage sawn of with the same 5 inch barrel would take your head off as you pull the trigger ?

I dont know about arming distance for buckshot round for the 40mm - but I remember the 40 we used had a 10-14 meter arming distance for HE and other shells . ( German HK mountd on G3 rifle ).

We didnt have the break contact shells though, arent they like a shotgun shell were only the shrapnel leave the barrel ?

Originally Posted by jester

I have seen the same book, and the colour plates ie cartoons showed similiar.

Here is an issue, one due to recoil when using shotguns in the 12 gauge catagory sawn off to that level tend to blow the users head clean off, thus I call BS!

And yes its a single barrel, but the recoil and "whip" action will mess up the shooter.

And a generous GM giving the players such a weapon should be mindful that using buckshot or flachette well, there would be no arming distance so pooff the hostiles get all the negative effects.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

From what I remember the buckshot round for the M79 during the Vietnam era consisted of about 20-24 pellets in a sabot and because the round is not explosive in any sense, it doesn't require arming.
That combined with the high-low pressure ignition system of the 40mm round means the length of the barrel of a cut down M79 is not the same problem that it is for a shotgun

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by General Pain

I must admit I liked it...

So what kind of rounds are possible for this beauty (pc-killer) ?

Flechette,HE,HEAT(low yield),CS,nervegass,shotgun,slug,incendiary,illum ?
(did I forget any)

and how about the stats for said rounds ?

[Legbreaker]

Basically any 40mm round could be fired from it but as has been mentioned there's question over the probabilty of the grenades arming.
Accuracy would also stink (don't count on hitting anything beyond a stones throw or so) and recoil could well break the firers wrist.

All in all you'd have to be mad, or desperate, or both!

[Hybris]

The arming distance for the grenade is 14-17 meters.

There is also a time delay (if this works correctly) that will detonate the grenade after 2,5 seconds after it hit the ground.

While using the pink filled powder training practice round the self-destruct often failed, mostly ( I presume) due to the snowy and soft ground.

The Russians 30mm grenade (I heard) arming distance is 21 meters +- 6.

It was fun using this feature while playing GURPS.
You would never now in advance if the grenade armed itself or not when fighting at close courtier.

[Legbreaker]

With roughly a dozen types of round, HE, HEDP, APERS, etc, there's likely as many arming distances. Of course barrel twist and legth from model to model will probably have an impact too.
So, the moral to the story? If they're close enough to use a hand greade, use that instead.

As for self distruction, that feature is limited to only certain rounds in my experience (none which were on issue in my day).

[BigEd]

Another pic of a M79 with just the stock chopped.



Tied onto Tropical Rucksack in vietnam, WP grenade above the handle.

///ed///

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by BigEd

Another pic of a M79 with just the stock chopped.



Tied onto Tropical Rucksack in vietnam, WP grenade above the handle.

///ed///

Damn there is almost no pistol grip at all! I think it would tear up the users hand a little. But, hell I try it once, twice if I liked it.

[Brother in Arms]

Special forces units in Vietnam partuclary the LRRPS,SEALS and SOG team fairly routinely cut down the M-79 even after they were able to aquire the XM-148 grenade launcher. I have been told a good 79 gunner could have 3 grenades in the air at one time before the first one hit the ground.

I have seen photos of even shorter barrels than the examples shown in the thread so far. From what I have read the recoil isnt that bad and in thich jungle area the reduced range wasn't an issue. Accuracy isn't that much of an issue either given that firing a grenade is like tossing a football it just takes practice to make it go.

I have always like the fullsized M-79 for t2k because it can fire more rounds than the M203 like ILUM rounds. Though a cut down M79 could'nt because the barrel is to short to accomodate them.

I like that its a dedicated grenade launcher its a good item to have in your guntruck.

[pmulcahy11b]

Of course, the next step is to wire two or more of them together and load them with tactical buckshot...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by General Pain

I must admit I liked it...

I'm afraid I've found a small problem with this weapon. It's not real - it's an airsoft. Great for firing paint pellets, but forget about real rounds.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

That image being an airsoft weapon isn't so important, cut down M79s were real and were definitely used in Vietnam, the airsoft companies just copied them.
This site http://www.lcompanyranger.com/usweapons/m79page.htm has two images of cut down M79s, one has already been shown here but the other shows Bob Suchke standing in front of a hut while he is holding a cut down M79 that's about as short as the airsoft image.
This site http://www.mitierragrafix.com/vietnam/vietnam.html has an image about a quarter of the way down the page of Charles Mason holding another cut down launcher.
Also http://s285.photobucket.com/albums/l...t=AB_0_020.jpg has pilot Tom O'Hara holding one that's just as small as the original picture in this thread

[Legbreaker]

Well that makes me think a little. With the airsoft weapons looking so like the real ones (not just the M79 but all the hundred of others out there), they could prove useful for bluffing.
Hmm, paintball ammo loaded with chemical irritants and other nastiness could be fun too.

[Kemper Boyd]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Hmm, paintball ammo loaded with chemical irritants and other nastiness could be fun too.

These are already used for crowd control purposes and manufactured commercially.

[Brother in Arms]

Excellent links stainless steel cynic
it reminded me about something I forgot to write...one of the sawed off m79s has tape on the forend and barrel. If you cut them down to far they forend and barrel was likely to fall off when opened so often times that was done to prevent that from occuring. Sounds pretty ghetto but it worked. I have also read that the wood stocked ones were sought after specifically for cutting down...most m79s were equipped with brownish colored fibre glass stocks same material as the later M14 stocks and they were more difficult for the GIs to cut down and reshape.

[Legbreaker]

An old solider in my first unit was a scout in Vietnam. Got in all sorts of trouble for cutting the barrel off his L1A1 SLR at the gas plug.
Made for a much more handy weapon in close terrain but had a HUGE muzzle flash.
Even though the shorter length was more suitable to the terrain, he still spent time with the MPs and had to pay for the damaged weapon. Next time he went out, he did it again, which according to witnesses saved his life when his patrol ran into trouble...

[Ramjam]

I read about them in a old Osprey book many years ago Leg.

I check Wiki and here's what it says :

'Another interesting product of Australian participation in the conflict in South-East Asia was the field modification of L1A1 and L2A1 rifles by the Australian Special Air Service Regiment SASR for better handling. Nicknamed "The Bitch", these rifles were field modified, often from heavy barrel L2A1 automatic rifles, with their barrels cut off immediately in front of the gas block, and often with the L2A1 bipods removed and a XM148 40 mm grenade launcher mounted below the barrel. The XM148 40 mm grenade launchers were obtained from U.S. forces. For the L1A1, the lack of fully-automatic fire resulted in the unofficial conversion of the L1A1 to full-auto capability by simply filing down the selector as it works by restricting trigger movement.If pulled only slightly, which semi-auto position allows, the disconnector is caught by the notch on the hammer, and upon releasing the trigger, it pushes the disconnector over the edge of the top of the trigger, giving it the necessary clearance to disengage the hammer and release upon pulling it again'

[Legbreaker]

Yes, he was doing basically the same thing but was in a "standard" infantry battalion. "Modifying" weapons was very much frowned upon outside the SAS.
I don't know if he modified to fire auto, but I wouldn't be suprised. 20+ years later when I served with him, he was still a private.....
His son was in the same company and actually outranked him!

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Targan

Sawn off M79s were mentioned in a book I read about the SOG in Vietnam so they definitely work. I know that they had a shorter barrel but I can't remember if the butt was sawn off as well.

Yup. They often carried them in a "holster" fashioned out of a canvas canteen carrier. They were most often used to break contact, firing the buckshot round, but they could also be used to lob HE.

John Plaster devotes a paragraph or two to the sawed-off M79 in his SOG A Photo History of the Secret Wars. There's also a photo of one. The SOG man in the photo has it tied to his grenadier's vest with a lanyard. Another cut-down M79 is featured in a color plate by Ron Volstad in Osprey's U.S. Army Special Forces, 1952-1984.