Where are the US airforce and Navy ground Units

[Webstral]

Leg,

I toyed with the numbers a bit before deciding on 500. This isn't a final number, really; however, I thought that too many fewer would render the organization entirely incapable of doing its job.

There are a couple of factors that I (very imprecisely) tried to work into my consideration. The first is how many people are available in the San Francisco Bay Area as of April 1, 2001. The pre-war Bay Area population is 10 million. I have somehat arbitrarily killed off 60% of these folks, leaving 4 million. The number of survivors I chose reflects, albeit in a very distant way, the number of survivors in the US according to Howling Wilderness. As of April 1, 2001, 48% of the pre-war US population is still alive. The number of casualties as a percentage of the pre-war population varies tremendously from place to place. In Utah, something like 80% of the pre-war population is still alive. Although numbers weren't given for Nevada, I feel confident that the Howling Wilderness blurb about Nevada supports an 85% reduction of the pre-war population. (GDW may have intended more. Before one of you guys pointed out that there is agriculture in several locations in Nevada, I assumed the whole place was tumbleweeds. GDW may have assumed the same.)

I chose to reduce the overall population of the Bay Area by 60% because the place is heavily urbanized, and urban centers generally will suffer greater depopulation than rural areas. Nevertheless, the climate and soil are highly favorable in many parts of the Bay Area. Agriculture continues to be practiced in the South Bay and in other pockets throughout the area. Also, the Central Valley is close-at-hand. Growing food locally and obtaining it from the Central Valley gives the Bay Area folks a leg up compared to a number of other urban areas throughout the western US. Therefore, a 40% survival rate, which places overall casualties at a somewhat higher level than the national average, seemed a reasonable starting point to me.

Four million is still a fair number of people. If a mere one percent of the population joins the local militias, we're still talking about a total mobilization of 40,000. Obviously, though, not every part of every community is playing ball with the rest of the Bay. There are some communities, or sections of communities, that are under the control of gangs and petty dictators. However, the presence of a large MilGov force relatively nearby should achieve much the effect that federal forces were supposed to play prior to the start of the Second Mexican-American War. Large groups of thugs, bandits, and would-be marauders will tend to attract attention. Control of the Central Valley and the Bay Area seems to have been a priority for MilGov. Therefore, I see the dynamic here being more favorable to law and order in the Bay Area and in Sacramento than in Southern California or even in nearby Humboldt County. Order can established at a higher equilibrium than in Boston, Phoenix, Las Vegas, or Reno. A higher equilibrium suggests that a larger pool of recruits is available for the Navy, and by extension for Blue Two.

The question of a civilian v Navy organization is a good one. I think the game itself supports the existence of a lot of relative newcomers. I'm not familiar with the v2 character generation system, but the v1 rules tend to generate soldiers who have been in the Army for less than three years. I've rolled up a lot of characters with less than two years of combat experience. Honestly, I was envisioning a number of post-Exchange troops in Blue Two in the realm of 50%. The true FNGs are going to be a handicap, but the guys with six months of operational experience generally should be able to pull their own weight. I'd agree, though, that they will be different than the pre-war Navy guys (and gals).

The cops are another issue. I think you're right that they won't necessarily be champing at the bit to join the Navy. On the other hand, some will have lost their families. Others just won't be able to cope with the changes they have endured. There are literally thousands of law enforcement folks in the Bay Area. A handful will have a lot to offer Blue Two. I agree that the overwhelming majority will stay with their departments, and this is where most of the cops belong. A few will want or need a change of scene. And surely the Navy will be actively recruiting in the Bay Area.

On the other hand, there is the issue of manpower in Sixth US Army. As of mid-2000, the various divisions and brigades of the army are operating at very low strength. It makes no sense for Blue Two to be a big, healthy organization while Sixth US Army is wasting away. So while I could see bringing the operational strength of Blue Two to 400 to be more in line with what Howling Wilderness gives the local Army units, 200-300 is just too small for me--especially given the manpower resources at hand.

Yes, I think 400 might be a better number. It's far too few for the mission at hand, but that's Twilight: 2000.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

400 or so seems quite reasonable to me also. Just enough to make an impact without being strong enough to do anything really significant.

I'd be inclined to reduce the city population a bit further though - many would have fled to rural areas when the threat of nukes became a reality, more would have been conscripted (but perhaps only a hundred thousand at most I'm guessing, probably less), while even more might have taken advantage of the chaos of post nuke US to take over abandoned and weakly defended farmlands. There's almost certainly more factors I haven't thought about also.

So, perhaps decreasing from 4 million to say 3 million might be worth considering? The extra million are likely still alive, just no longer residents...
This would still make it a very populous centre, especially when compared to say New York.

[Webstral]

99th Security Group, USAF (previously Nellis Group)

A pre-war USAF Security Forces (SF) formation, the 99th Security Group belonged to the 99th Air Base Wing at Nellis AFB in Nevada at the start of the conflict in Europe in October, 1996. Although some elements of the 99th SG were sent overseas, the basis of the group remained in Nevada throughout 1997. The group’s combat readiness was affected by the transfer of virtually all of the available AFV to make good on the heavy fighting vehicle losses being suffered by Army formations fighting overseas. By November, however, 99th SG largely had been backfilled by new light AFV coming off American assembly lines and refitted Warsaw Pact vehicles—most notably the BTR-80A2.

Although the surgical strategic nuclear exchange at the end of November, 1997 did not directly touch Nevada, the results were disastrous nonetheless. A 20Mt airburst over central North America knocked out the electricity grid nation-wide. Las Vegas was full to overflowing with revelers trying to escape the anxieties of a war that already had turned nuclear overseas. Hundreds of thousands of Americans attempted to flee Las Vegas when the lights went out. Rioting, looting, and violent crime of every description exploded across the city within twelve hours of the nuclear attacks on Los Angeles.

Into the chaos stepped government forces. Since the Alarm(1) in July, the City of Las Vegas, Clark County, and Nellis AFB all had been feverishly preparing for the worst while attempting to pretend that the worst was highly unlikely. The military, the police, and civil defense forces made valiant efforts to control both the flood of civilians out of Las Vegas and the situation inside Las Vegas. The results were mixed at best. Violence erupted among the long columns of vehicles jammed along the few roads leading out of southern Nevada. Loss of life was second only to the number of injuries sustained. Desperate and/or enterprising civilians found ways around the government checkpoints and roadblocks. Broken-down and out-of-gas vehicles soon littered the Nevada desert. Few of the stranded motorists survived.

Inside the city, rioting and looting spread out of control despite the best efforts of law enforcement. 99th Security Group, which was greatly reinforced by non-SF airmen, struggled to aid municipal police in securing vital facilities throughout the city. The heavy firepower of the SF fighting vehicles proved a major deterrent to even the most dedicated rioters; however, there were not enough fighting vehicles to control more than small sections of the city. Fires erupted and spread through whole neighborhoods, checked only by existing and hastily-created firebreaks.

Recognizing that municipal government was handicapped by the threat to the families of civil servants, the commander of 99th Wing invited police and other government agents to move their families to emergency facilities on the base. Space would be at a premium, but food, water, and shelter would be available.


Within a week, more than half of the pre-war population of Las Vegas was dead or dying or had fled the city. The survivors were faced with a badly damaged city with virtually no electricity and very little water. Municipal water was being pumped by emergency generators for brief periods every day. Markets had been emptied, and stores of food and fuel had been appropriated by the government. In some areas, gangs ran rampant. Government forces attempted to maintain law and order and establish a working rationing system with modest success.

The 99th Air Base Wing quickly became compelled by events to reorient itself. Air operations were virtually forgotten in the scramble to mitigate the human disaster unfolding at the base perimeter. Over the course of the next few weeks, the uniformed personnel of the base consolidated into two groups: the security forces, and the people keeping the security forces in action. Civilian contractors and even dependents were pressed into either of the two groups. Little else could be done until some sort of order could be imposed on Las Vegas.

Within two weeks, the security situation had improved significantly because government forces controlled most of the remaining food and fuel. It was possible to restore some of the flow of electricity from Hoover Dam, which eased the water crisis for the remaining Las Vegans.

A new crisis emerged almost immediately, however: disease. Poor sanitation combined with unburied bodies that froze at night but thawed during the day led to outbreaks of cholera and other diseases that would affect so much of the rest of the country later in the year. Health officials were nearly helpless. City Hall moved to Nellis AFB, which also became the base of operations for most of the remaining civil services of Las Vegas. Civilians died by the hundreds each day.

During this time, 99th Security Group continued to patrol the surviving neighborhoods of Las Vegas and to supervise food distribution. Increasingly, LVPD and USAF personnel became intermingled until there was little practical distinction. Throughout December and into January, the security forces attempted to break up gangs and enforce law and order. Heated firefights caused massive loss of life among the gangs but also whittled away the manpower of government forces.

The federal government instituted its triage measure for the purpose of prioritizing food and fuel distribution nationwide. Las Vegas was virtually at the bottom of the list. Rations grew tighter, leading to more and more desperation and violence among the dwindling survivors of Las Vegas.

Elsewhere in the state, things were hard but more manageable. Ranching products were available, along with some food grown in the northern and western parts of the state. As the food deliveries from elsewhere in the country dried up, Nellis AFB drew up a requisitioning plan to distribute excess from elsewhere in Nevada to the survivors of Las Vegas. A miniature relocation plan was put into effect, the intent being to move as many of the hungry Las Vegan survivors as possible to the agricultural areas of the state in time to aid in planting.

Unfortunately, the plan was not very successful. Cut-throat competition among the remaining gangs in Las Vegas had produced a clear front-runner under a man calling himself the Shogun. His gang extorted food from the Las Vegas survivors and defied the best efforts of 99th Security Group to destroy them. Morale among the airmen and police was very low by spring—a fact the Shogun was able to exploit. He took in deserters and found ways of rewarding corruption. A large portion was what food came into Las Vegas was diverted to the de facto warlord of much of Las Vegas. Some survivors were transported to other locations in the state, however.

By May, it was clear that the gangs controlled most of the survivors of Las Vegas by night and whenever security forces were not present. The commander of 99th Wing launched one last effort to break the hold of the bandits over Las Vegas. After three days of fighting and dozens of casualties, the Air Force called off its offensive.

On June 2, Mexico invaded the United States. Soon thereafter, 99th Wing was ordered to move all remaining personnel and assets to Sacramento in support of Sixth US Army. The withdrawal from Nellis AFB was contested by the Shogun, resulting in further losses in lives and materiel.

The Las Vegas Police Department had 2100 officers on the day before the nuclear attacks. Upon arrival in Sacramento, 450 remained, including all auxiliary and reserve police, absorbed sheriff’s deputies, and inductees. 99th Security Group reached a maximum strength of 2600 immediately after the nuclear strikes. Six months later, the group fielded 600.

99th Security Group continued to operate for the rest of 1998, providing security throughout the northern half of the Central Valley. On January 4, 1999, the group was disbanded; its personnel and equipment were distributed throughout Sixth US Army to make good on losses suffered during the previous year. As of 2001, airmen and police from southern Nevada still can be found serving throughout central California.

Webstral

(1) The first use of nuclear weapons in Europe and in China. Civil disorder in the US was worse than at any other time in history. After the worst was over, authorities effectively had a dress rehearsal for a real nuclear attack to analyze. Many claim that without the lessons of the Alarm and the preparations taken in response to the Alarm, the recovery of the United States from the Twilight War might have been delayed by a generation or more.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

400 or so seems quite reasonable to me also. Just enough to make an impact without being strong enough to do anything really significant.

I'm not sure I see not doing anything really significant as a priority. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm not supportive of the direction Howling Wilderness goes in. Though not a major combatant, Blue Two can make a substantial contribution to the recovery of the Bay Area by securing the water routes along which much of the post-Exchange commerce will move. If you mean, though, that I'm not introducing a major new combatant into the Sixth US Army AO, then I believe we're on the same page.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I'd be inclined to reduce the city population a bit further though - many would have fled to rural areas when the threat of nukes became a reality, more would have been conscripted (but perhaps only a hundred thousand at most I'm guessing, probably less), while even more might have taken advantage of the chaos of post nuke US to take over abandoned and weakly defended farmlands. There's almost certainly more factors I haven't thought about also.

So, perhaps decreasing from 4 million to say 3 million might be worth considering? The extra million are likely still alive, just no longer residents...
This would still make it a very populous centre, especially when compared to say New York.

I'll give it some thought.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Webstral

If you mean, though, that I'm not introducing a major new combatant into the Sixth US Army AO, then I believe we're on the same page.

That's exactly where I'm coming from. Such a weak force would also have little left spare for rebuilding tasks in the first couple of years and therefore would impact only slightly (if at all) on previously written materials.

Re the 99th, although obviously written for your own game world, I think it would transplant quite well with only minimal changes into a canon scenario. Well thought out and written, I can see events following a very similar course.

[Ironside]

Good stuff Webstral! Very believeable and reads very well. More like a novel than a bald unit description.

[Webstral]

Thank you kindly. In this case, it helps that I'm not starting from scratch. I had to do some background work on how the Shogun and the Gunryo [Silver Shogunate] came into being. Figuring out what happens with the Air Force units at Nellis and the Army units passing through Nevada was part and parcel with creating a workable history of the Gunryo. In effect, my piece on 99th Security Group is a third draft.

Webstral

[kota1342000]

This thread has some really outstanding points and ideas, and it got me to thinking about some adventures I had run in the past because I had thought there was a "hole" in the history where the USAF and USN should have been. "Shoestring Wing" is a game block I ran for a convention where the 47th TFW has decided they were sick of not having fuel or parts for their aircraft, so took a different tack and built ultralights patterned after the t-bird. "Saving Davis Monthan" is another one that came from two thoughts; more USAF ideas and lack of any real "WOW" special operations missions from the twilight war.

but the thread here has given me another thought, do as you want with it, but imagine if the Joint Chiefs in Colorado Springs put a group together to figure out the feasibility of restoring air capability to the force. The Chiefs called the group the Air Operations Joint Staff (AOJS), and what follows is a decrypt from a teletype message sent to them after a week of their deliberation.

99052616280
DTG; 0110151800Z
TOP SECRET
ROMEO ECHO
AUTHENTICATION AS;
TD6168
FROM C3BAFB
TO C3CMAFB

MESSAGE FOLLOWS AS

15 October 2001

From; Air Operations Joint Staff, Planning and Operations Sections (S-2/S-3), Buckley Air Force Base
To; Chief of Staff, United States Air Force, Cheyenne Mountain Air Force Base

CC; Chairman, United States Joint Chiefs of Staff
Chief of Staff United States Army
Chief of Naval Operations, United States Navy
Commandant United States Marine Corps
CG USAF Air Logistics Command, Buckley AFB
CG USAF Air Development Command, Nellis AFB
CG USAF Western Air Defense Command, Mountain Home AFB

Reconstitution of Air Power for United States Forces

The past five years of conflict have seen the widespread taxing of all conventional and nuclear forces beyond the breaking point in many cases. Current situations for many subordinate units are widely varied, with some areas of operation being well in hand, and others being nearly hopeless with little chance of extricating the forces in theatre. Some kind of change must be necessary to bring favorable decision to certain areas while allowing areas that are under control to be able to project the ability to bring order to adjacent areas, by force if necessary.
Since 1946 the United States Air Force has served its country honorably through several conflicts, and this conflict is no different. What has changed is the nature of the conflict, with thermonuclear weapons being used to deny access to vital supplies of energy and to destroy the means with which transportation of strategic resources are moved. In short, the US Air Force has been bled white by both conventional conflict and civil disorder, and additionally has taken severe damage from nuclear attack by the Soviet Strategic Rocket Forces.
The result is that the USAF has fed personnel to the US Army in roles as replacements, sometimes as individuals and sometimes as small units. Air Force facilities around the world have come to function as farmland, safe areas for civilians, bases of technology, and rest areas for US Army units. The air operations of the USAF have dropped to near nothing as the lack of replacement parts, and most critically fuel have grounded nearly all remaining aircraft as effectively as if they had been lost to enemy action (exceptions being AFCENT Air Forces US Central Command, and AFSOUTH; Air Forces Southern Command, respectively in Iran and Nicaragua where small but significant reserves of aviation fuel can be processed from local petroleum).

It is the judgment of the Air Operations Joint Staff that the USAF must take the lead in reconstituting the air power of the United States as quickly as possible. While supporting the other services is a vital task, deciding to leave aircraft in the list of “things to do for later�, or doing nothing at all is in effect an abandonment of the primary mission of the USAF. This would be without need, reason, or excuse. There is no force at all at this time which holds air superiority over much of the areas of operation in question, the sky has become an untaken objective.

The following are the primary recommendations from the conference of the Air Operations Joint Staff, held at Buckley AFB under orders from the Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff on October 5 thru 9, 2001.

1. Revision of Technology
The primary method of aircraft power, the jet engine, is one of the most complicated machines in common use known to civilization, even before the current conflict removed many of the logistical pieces necessary to keep military jet engines in running form. It is therefore suggested that a step backward be taken to propeller driven aircraft of several sorts and kinds for all types of air operations. While we are not suggesting the scrapping of jet aircraft that lack only for fuel, we are suggesting that the simplification of aircraft is necessary to revive the force.
Propellers have to be driven however, and it is suggested that conventional piston engines be used for this purpose. Not only are there a wide variety of these types of engines still available for salvage and rebuilding, they could be operated using the same types of alternative energy methods in use by the US Army to keep their armored fighting vehicles moving.
The above point also implies the scratch building of aircraft that will be able to mount such combinations of engine and propeller, and though there are many solutions, the AOJS has been unable to come to a consensus on a small number of specific aircraft types and forms with which to begin the reconstitution of the force. After deliberation, it has been decided to recommend that type specific airframes may be counter-productive to the effort, and encourage local Wing Commanders to decide on aircraft forms with higher headquarters giving guidance and advice as needed.

2. Revision of Fuel Supplies and Mission Endurance
US Army Logistics figures for fuel consumption for vehicles of several kinds has been invaluable for our recommendations, and is as follows;
-Operations by piston driven aircraft operating with ethanol or methanol can expect to have their combat range cut by 65% to 75%.
-Operations by piston driven aircraft operating with compressed methane can also expect to have their combat ranges cut in half.
The AOJS has also studied the use of electrical power for aircraft, but has been deemed impractical for piston driven aircraft, though may be useful for other types of aircraft (covered later).

3. Revision of Missions and Mission Profile
The resulting change of aircraft types and capability will force a change in the types of operation that the reconstituted air units will be able to carry out. Missions such as strategic bombing, suppression of enemy air defense, and deep penetration raids will not be possible, while air to air combat would be superfluous in most theatres as any air unit building and using aircraft by these recommendations will likely be the first aircraft in use in the respective areas of operation to be flying in almost two years.
It is therefore recommended that aircraft be tailored for the following missions;
-Air to ground attack/support
-Reconaissance and intelligence gathering
-Light cargo and airlift
-Aeromedical evacuation
We also recommend that aircraft be tailored to perform at least two of the above missions to provide for greater flexibility of the force.
It is also obvious by the limitations now placed on future air units operating under these recommendations that air units will have to operate much closer to battle areas than was practical before. The reasons for moving airfields further back from the battle areas (reduction of threat from theatre chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons and greater security), have been rendered moot by the use of tactical and strategic weapons during the previous years of the conflict. Furthermore, the inability to maintain such sensitive weapons systems that could be used against airfields in the past helps to provide greater security for forward operating airstrips and improvised air bases in the future. It is also hoped that the re-emergence of the technology to operate such weapon systems will come about only after the resumption of peace time operations.

4. Use of Alternative Aircraft
From field reports made available to the AOJS by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, it is obvious that alternative aircraft are already in operation in several theatres of war, including Colorado and Arkansas (MILGOV USAF experiments at Buckley AFB with airships, and the same types of operations by a New America Cell based in Arkansas) and Germany (the 47th TFW’s use of Ultralight aircraft for light battlefield tasks). It is the recommendation of the AOJS that further resources be placed in the development and use of lighter than air craft for military tasks, basically the same tasks listed in the missions section listed above.
Electrical power could also be used as alternative energy in this case, as airships may be able to use manufactured photovoltaic cells (given that these resources will take time to develop). Range and mission endurance could be at least doubled using this option if developed correctly.




Discussion Points

The vulnerability of all types of aircraft listed in this recommendation has been a source of great debate for the AOJS. It has been pointed out that though aircraft have faded from the skies over the battlefield, many types of anit-aircraft weapon systems have not. While an aircrew could not expect to have to deal with the threat of guided anti-aircraft missiles very often, ground and vehicle based gun systems such as the Soviet ZSU-23-4 would pose a very serious threat to aircraft even without the vehicle’s acquisition radar. It is the final judgment of the AOJS that the worth of battlefield aircraft returning to support the ground forces would be worth running this risk, and that pilots, planning staff and intelligence personnel will be able to overcome the disadvantage inherent in this balance.

In addition, the reports of the US Navy 9th Fleet (formerly US Coast Guard Pacific) having received several tankers of petroleum from CENTCOM at the Portland and Seattle basing areas has provided an opportunity for the use of aircraft from all four services. Use of small refinery locations that have not been the targets of thermonuclear attack would be able to produce amount of aviation grade fuel for conventional aircraft that have thus far been grounded. While obvious that this fuel should be husbanded for use in essential operations, it is a light at the end of the tunnel for several west coast air units.

Conclusion
Since the invention of the airplane by the Wright Brothers in 1903, the air forces of the world have had to adapt to changing conditions and requirements of the battlefield by upgrading the aircraft of their forces and their capabilities. In light of the technological “dark age� that has befallen the world, it is imperative that someone take a step forward by re-introducing a piece of technology before it is lost to us for good. In this case, it is the aircraft for operations of war, if for no other reason to assist in re-establishing order and providing a way forward for the resumption of peace between the nations of the world.
The way forward in this case, is a “step backward� to previous types and forms of airframes and powerplants in which to make this possible. Early air forces (such as those used in the First World War) operated mostly by supporting the ground forces, and though air power did not have the strength to bring decision by itself, we are now in a completely different situation. Re-constituted air power can be used not only for combat, but for recovery purposes as well, and should be pursued as fast as resources permit.

LtCol Jason Content, USAF, Chairman AOJS
Maj Jennifer Doyle, USAF
Maj Tom Stilton, USAF
Lt Cmdr Andrew Kearney, USN
LTC David McCauley, USA
Capt Arthur Payton, USMC

END MESSAGE END MESSAGE
__________________________________________________ _________
DISENGAGE



Just some thoughts heehee

[Dog 6]

now that I like.
here is an idea to think about, prop planes like the A-1's have flown in flak so think you could walk on it and more times then not brought its pilot home. so the lighter flak guns one would be likely to find would not make the threat of flying to great imo.

[kota1342000]

Thanks Dog, and good point about the Skyraiders. The Sandys sure took some punishment. I think it would depend on type of airframe with respect for resistance to the lighter calibers these days, an A-1D style aircraft would work great, but the ultralights like we used in Shoestring Wing would REALLY be iffy.

[Webstral]

Kota,

I like the creative format. I also think it likely that surviving USAF leaders would be pushing for the recreation of a working air force--none more so than the Chief of Staff of the Air Force. How well these schemes measure up against the situation in CONUS is another matter. You've got a good point about the feasibility of propeller-driven aircraft vis-a-vis jets.

I like your emphasis on strike missions, recce, and light cargo. Ironically, a reborn USAF might look much like the Red Air Force of WW2. I think your emphasis on multi-role capability is also appropriate.

One could invest a great deal of electronic ink on figuring out what resources are available and who gets priority on them. As everyone here knows, I'm a firm supporter of airships as the primary contribution the USAF can make to solving the nation's problems. This basically would turn the USAF into a MAC organization. This is not sexy. A Skyraider-type aircraft would arouse much greater excitement. Some ground commanders may believe that CAS will do them more good than an improved logistical system that would result from prioritizing airships over attack aircraft, whatever resources were available.

Anyway, very interesting.

Webstral

[kota1342000]

Yes, In retrospect, maybe more emphasis on airships would be in order for the study, weak spot for the idea we can correct with a little typing.
And I wholeheartedly agree with the situation for CONUS...deployment or even implementation could be spotty at best.

I think what we really need is a map based order of battle for...well, everywhere. Im building one with microsoft streets and trips; outside of the US its not the best maps but works just fine for a strategic locations board. Ill let everyoone know how it goes.

[kota1342000]

YEEK
Glad I found where we put this thread; I was building a message for a player group getting ready to start The Last Submarine...and saved over the original air force message I posted here.

[firewalker]

Originally Posted by Webstral

99th Security Group, USAF


On June 2, Mexico invaded the United States. Soon thereafter, 99th Wing was ordered to move all remaining personnel and assets to Sacramento in support of Sixth US Army. The withdrawal from Nellis AFB was contested by the Shogun, resulting in further losses in lives and materiel.

I’m pretty sure I didn’t notice this on the first read through (the nice side of thread necromancy wot). How much was the shoguns attack on the base evacuation about trying to grab a little extra gear/loot and how much was it about him relishing that he’s a parasite. On one hand the air force is moving out no more patrols (bad guy celebrations woohooo) but on the other hand…..no more food deliveries?

[Webstral]

The Shogun realizes from the get-go that Vegas is doomed. In a sense, he’s in Vegas during Thanksgiving 1997 because he’s exploiting the folks who are denying reality with a will. I’ve been fleshing out his character a bit in response to my wife’s challenge to turn Silver Shogunate into a graphic novel. I won’t go into much detail, but suffice to say that the Shogun is a bit of a dichotomous character in that he combines fatalism with irrepressible opportunism.

Anyway, the Shogun sees the writing on the wall for southern Nevada from the moment EMP knocks out the lights. He knows what’s coming. However, his scheme is to keep himself body-surfing the crest of the tsunami of collapse until the shape of things becomes more apparent. To that end, he begins gathering intelligence about the state of affairs in the rest of Nevada months before 99th Security Group gets redeployed to California. The end of food deliveries to Nellis AFB is a problem, but not an unforeseen one. The opportunity to acquire equipment and turncoats so that the productive areas of Nevada can be brought under the Shogun’s control all the quicker is something he builds towards even before Milgov issues the warning order.

[Legbreaker]

While working on my pre 2000 offensive 2nd Marines OOB I noticed the huge number of pre-war machines and men allocated to the 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing, many of which would not likely have survived the preceding years of war to take part in the 2000 offensive.

The Free City of Krakow (page 38) states:

Aircraft of various types, especially helicopters, have been stored in barns and hangars across Europe, but they are useless without fuel, and many have been stripped for parts useful to other endeavours.

This got me thinking about those weapons, in particular the guns, and specifically the 20mm autocannons. Until 1994, the US fielded the M167 Vulcan which fires the same round as almost all the 20mm aircraft cannons (20x102mm). The M167 was replaced with the Avenger in the Marines. With the scarcity of Stinger missiles by 2000, I'm thinking many of those Avenger systems would have been stripped from their Humvee carriers and replaced with ex-aircraft guns as makeshift AAA and ground support systems.

With approximately 1000 M167 ground mounts produced along with innumerable vehicle mounts, not to mention all the aircraft ammo which may have survived, it seems like a good idea.

The 2nd Low Altitude Air Defence Battalion TOE was 300 men and 60 M1097 Avengers, of which only a quarter are judged to have survived (based on factors too numerous to list here). My thoughts are that of the 15 or so vehicles still operating, only 5 are still equipped with the Avenger system and the rest either having been disarmed and re-purposed (into basic cargo/troop carriers) or rearmed with the aircraft weaponry.

Thoughts? Problems? Technical difficulties?

Note that it's also my intention to virtually disband the 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing leaving only a cadre behind in Germany and the 2nd Low Altitude Air Defence Battalion which lands with 2nd MARDIV.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind guys that there will still be jets flying - there are just too many around in the world to not have enough spare parts to keep some of them going. But they will be more of a silver bullet force as time goes on - i.e. sort of like the B2 is now. You may have a single squadron of F-15's in Colorado and thats it for real air to air superiority aircraft still operational in the US, that is only operational by cannibalizing literally dozens of others for the spare parts needed and using remaining machine shops and the like to make spare parts using existing ones as the pattern.

However some jets are a perfect candidate for a post 2000 US Air Force - for instance the A-10 Thunderbolt. One of the reasons they picked it as the resistance jet aircraft for Terminator Salvation was that its so easy to maintain, relatively simple and very hardy and thus the one plane that would survive years of combat in an environment very similar to a T2000 world.

And it fits perfectly what is needed for the post 2000 Twilight War world - i.e. a ground attack aircraft that can do air to air if it has to and can do its job mainly just with its cannon and doesnt need a bunch of missiles to be effective.

[Legbreaker]

Fuel.
There just isn't any to be had in Europe.
There's not even enough to go around in the middle east.
And it's all in black and white in the books.

Of course as usual everyone's free to do what they want in their own world, but I personally aim to stick with the published materials as much as possible so that all may (or may not) use what I produce without problems.

[Olefin]

there is enough fuel to go around in the Middle East to supply three large groups of aircraft that are still very active per Kings Ransom and the RDF - between all three of them

the US has 86 helos, 45 high performance jet fighters and attack planes and 22 transport/patrol/refueling aircraft

the Russians and their allies have 48 helos, 58 high performance jet fighters and bombers and 17 transport aircraft

the French have 20 helos, 48 high performance aircraft, 12 transport/refueling

the Saudis have 12 Tornados

add that up and there is enough fuel to operate 154 helicopters, 163 jet fighters and bombers and attack aircraft and 51 transports

thats a lot of aircraft that are fully operational and have fuel - not for unlimited ops but they are operational (remember in Kings Ransom there is fuel to call in helos for both insertions and retrievals)

and that doesnt count all the tanks, APC's, trucks and Hummers that are still around

and keep in mind what just one fully operational refinery and well could do in Texas - where that one well in six months could make 250,000 gallons of aviation fuel

and we know that there is fuel enough in Europe in at least one place to operate aircraft - Ploesti - with two units having at least ten operational helos there on the Russian side

[Legbreaker]

But no fuel to spare for other areas.
Such as Europe, the place I'm working on now. What's going on elsewhere in the world is completely, utterly and totally irrelevant to the topic at hand which is cannibalism of aircraft in Europe, specifically USMC aircraft (although not limited to them alone), many of which have suffered irreparable damage given the parts and personnel available.

From the BYB:

Aircraft designed to fly on aviation gas cannot get off the ground on alcohol. Thus, air power is mostly a thing of the past (to the secret relief of many infantrymen).

From all versions:

...the grounding of the last cargo aircraft...

From The Free City of Krakow:

Since they require aviation fuel, aircraft have become increasingly rare and are seldom flown. Aircraft of various types, especially helicopters, have been stored in barns and hangars across Europe, but they are useless without fuel, and many have been stripped for parts useful to other endeavours.

Now, if you've got something to add on the current topic of cannibalism, I'm all ears.

[Raellus]

Take it easy, fellas.

Some people prefer T2K without most (or any) of the hi-tech and others like to include some more of it. I fall into the former category but that's neither here nor there. Most of the published materials lay out a vision of the T2KU where aircraft are extremely rare and fly infrequently, if at all. That said, if Olefin prefers a T2KU where aircraft are a little more common, he's entitled to it. Please, let's not get into another one of these arguments because we've all seen where they usually end up going.

Cool?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

That said, if Olefin prefers a T2KU where aircraft are a little more common, he's entitled to it.

Exactly what I said in #48 above.

[Olefin]

I am totally cool Raellus - only pointing out that aircraft arent as rare elsewhere in the world as they are in Europe. One of those places being the RDF. And there are aircraft ops even in the US - but on a small scale obviosuly (A Rock in Troubled Waters mentions US aircraft operations but with very limited fuel to critical ops only and an airbase where fuel is scarce but is still used as a relay station to New England)

And keep in mind that the French have enough fuel to be operating helicopters in Going Home - and the last I heard France is part of Europe. (althougth sometimes you wonder if the French think so.. lol)

from Going Home - "Units in the dead zone are in constant radio communication
with their base. If they get into more trouble than they can handle
alone, they can call for and receive support in the form of
airstrikes or airmobile reinforcements (unlike their opponents,
the French Army still has a small quantity of functional aircraft
and the fuel to run them). Avgas does not grow on trees,
however, and the platoon who calls for aviation help had better
have a good reason for doing so.

Reaction Force: This consists of a helicopter-borne patrol
(generally Elite, but often Good) carried in three Puma transport
helicopters, and two Gazelle helicopters (one ground attack and
one anti-tank version). It is dispatched against threats which
the foot patrols have encountered, but feel are too large for them
to handle"

And Med Cruise details Soviet helo ops in the late spring of 2001 with oil from Ploesti still being around

So clearly it is still possible to operate aircraft and they do exist - but in most places there is almost no fuel left for ops (i.e. Krakow's helo only has about 1000 liters or so, the US evac fleet may only have the one operational helicopter and only enough fuel for a short flight for evacuating the rear guard, etc..)

And Raellus - I am only going strictly by whats in the modules as to air ops and the availability of planes and helos and fuel, not my own opinions - I do like having more tech available because frankly it would take decades for all of it to break down.

I am an engineer by trade and by experience - i work with military equipment that was built in the 1950's to 80's and we recondition it to keep it working. And as was seen during WWII its amazing what you can do to keep planes flying - I didnt say they would work as well as before, I said flying.

And keep in mind the effect of even a handful of planes and what they can do when you are the only one having air power. Even if all they can do is be observation planes because their weaponry doesnt work anymore.

Oh and dont worry Raellus - I am not going to pick a fight in any way. One ban is more than enough thank you. Plus everyone is entitled to their opinion here.

[Legbreaker]

So now that mess is done with, what's the thoughts on post #46?
All viewpoints welcome, but please keep it constructive.

[Raellus]

Cool. I'm glad we're all on the same page.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

So now that mess is done with, what's the thoughts on post #46?
All viewpoints welcome, but please keep it constructive.

The first problem I see with ground support mounts for Vulcans is the ammo consumption. You'd need non-trivial transport just to carry a basic load for one engagement. I'm wondering if they'd be better in fixed positions than as maneuver support guns.

- C.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

The first problem I see with ground support mounts for Vulcans is the ammo consumption. You'd need non-trivial transport just to carry a basic load for one engagement. I'm wondering if they'd be better in fixed positions than as maneuver support guns.

That's a good point. A Vulcan on a HEMTT might work. Talk about a wicked gun truck.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Raellus

That's a good point. A Vulcan on a HEMTT might work. Talk about a wicked gun truck.

Q-wagon. Mount it on a heavy ox-drawn Conestoga-type wagon, put a lightweight collapsible frame and canvas cover over it, and use it for trade caravan defense. Sheer shock value would give you the initiative long enough for your riflemen to pick off the attackers.

- C.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Q-wagon. Mount it on a heavy ox-drawn Conestoga-type wagon, put a lightweight collapsible frame and canvas cover over it, and use it for trade caravan defense. Sheer shock value would give you the initiative long enough for your riflemen to pick off the attackers.

- C.

The wagon MIGHT survive the first burst before disintegrating from the vibration. Even the Avengers would be challenged by it.

I put several gun trucks in my OpFred game when the 5th reorganized the winter before the push. The aviation and ADA battalions were the units which, due to nonavailability of fuel for flying except a horded amount and five flyable utility light helos that didn't need a battalion of troops... and lack of missiles for the Avengers.. hence they had about 15 vehicles in different configurations from HUMMV with a fifty and two GPMG with D-grips and crew of 4.. to a HEMTT with everything from miniguns to mortar on board.. the 'battlewagon' of the provisional battalion. The vehicles were farmed out through out the division to provide everything from convoy escort to infantry firesupport.

BUT fuel and ammo is still a problem for them, like everyone else.

[Olefin]

By the way for ultralights keep in mind that they dont need avgas per se - most engines are rated for 93 Octane auto fuel which would be easier to find in the US than avgas for instance.

As to putting aircraft weaponry on gun trucks - interesting paragraph from a wikipedia article on Technicals - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_(vehicle)

"Some medium flatbed trucks carried the Soviet-made ZPU and ZU-23-2 towed anti-aircraft twin or quad barreled guns, as well as recoilless rifles and S-5 rocket helicopter rocket launcher pods. Some rebels have improvised with captured heavy weaponry, like BMP-1 turrets and helicopter rocket pods, as well as lower-tech methods such as using doorbells to ignite rocket-launched ammunition."