Twilight 2013

[Gabe The Gun]

Had our first session of 2013 and all I gotta' say is I love this system, the game is great! I don't see ANY reason sombody wouldn't like it. Its got my vote for sure!!!!!!!!!!

[leonpoi]

Originally Posted by Gabe The Gun

Had our first session of 2013 and all I gotta' say is I love this system, the game is great! I don't see ANY reason sombody wouldn't like it. Its got my vote for sure!!!!!!!!!!

How's the initiative system? Does it play out too slow?

I was put off because of the amount of modifiers: your stance, enemy stance, movements, range, weapon type, etc, etc. I liked the idea of all of these things being included but it just seemed too much. What's your view?

[Mahatatain]

Gebe - I'd be interested to know if you've encountered the same problem with the damage system in T2013 that I've observed. Doing a little bit of maths it's possible to get a situation where you keep shooting someone and he doesn't get "wounded" any further, i.e. his wound state doesn't get any worse, particularly with Veteran or Elite NPCs.

I started a discussion about it on the official forums (http://www.93gamesstudio.com/forum/v...hp?f=32&t=2428) and seemed to get inconclusive answers from the game designers where they kept stressing the other effects of combat, which, while important wasn't really addressing the issue I've observed.

I'm therefore interested whether you've had a situation like this occur as it may be that I'm worrying about nothing!

[Gabe The Gun]

I have not yet came across that problem for we do not hit a combat until this Sat, but I will let you know.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Gabe The Gun

Had our first session of 2013 and all I gotta' say is I love this system, the game is great! I don't see ANY reason sombody wouldn't like it. Its got my vote for sure!!!!!!!!!!

Hang on. Such a strong recommendation and you haven't tried it out in combat yet?

[Snake Eyes]

Well, character generation is a rather compelling undertaking.

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by Gabe The Gun

I have not yet came across that problem for we do not hit a combat until this Sat, but I will let you know.

I hope I'm wrong but try shooting a Veteran or Elite NPC with a pistol a lot. They'll get to a point where they're dying but won't die until they expire of their wounds after a couple of rounds of bleeding. It's quite hard to kill a Veteran or Elite NPC outright unless you're using some heavy firepower!

Anyway, if you encounter the issue (and it turns out that I'm right that it is an issue in the first place) then the link I posted had some suggestions on house rules to get round the issue.

[Gabe The Gun]

Well first of all, I really appreciate everyones concerns, but, in my opinion, if you didnt shoot somebody in the head and cause major head trauma to cause instant death, you can shoot all you want in real life with a handgun and have to wait for the bleed out for someone to die. Thats just how the human body works,its called "shock". So........on the other hand, if your going up against these type of NPC's in the game ill-equiped that is YOUR bad, not the systems. The reality aspects are there for me!

So here is a little bit of advice.........next time pack more heat instead whinning about getting your a## whipped by an NPC dude! Next time try a called shot to the head. Also I am using a .454 Casull

[Gabe The Gun]

Also, that seems more harsh than meant to be so please dont take offense, im not trying to bash anyone, just trying to get my point across gentlemen.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Gabe The Gun

Also I am using a .454 Casull

Your character is using a .454 Casull handgun? Doesn't that strike you as a little... munchkin-esque? I have no idea what the tone of your game is so maybe thats normal in your group. Seems highly unlikely in your standard post-apoc Twilight setting though.

[Gabe The Gun]

Originally Posted by Targan

Your character is using a .454 Casull handgun? Doesn't that strike you as a little... munchkin-esque? I have no idea what the tone of your game is so maybe thats normal in your group. Seems highly unlikely in your standard post-apoc Twilight setting though.

No brother, that is just my sidearm . Since everyone is talking about handgun problems. It would be my last resort for sure. I am using a FN MAG as my primary, an M320 w/HEDP rounds as my secondary. I am not falling short as far as KILLING POWER!

[Snake Eyes]

Two summers ago, my girlfriend said she wanted a revolver for her birthday. I told her to do some research and we'd look into taking the handgun safety class together .

She came up with:

... a Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan in .454 Casull with a 2.5" barrel. When I was done laughing ... well actually I still haven't stopped.

[Gabe The Gun]

Well it is the most POWERFULL handgun in the game. Its a beast!!!!!!

[Gabe The Gun]

And tell your girl happy B-Day

[Gabe The Gun]

I think it is a great choice, though I would like to see the .44 Automag in the game..............So limited

[Snake Eyes]

Originally Posted by Gabe The Gun

I think it is a great choice, though I would like to see the .44 Automag in the game..............So limited

I'm sure Max can fudge stats for an Automag.

[leonpoi]

I've played 2013 a bit and I think it needs 2 house rules but is otherwise fine:

1. MoS are split evenly between bullets in a burst attack. This replaces the default rules whereby every bullet gets the same overall MoS. This tones burst down a tad. Any bullets that can't be allocated a MoS are grazing shots.

2. when wounded body parts are hit again but the wound is ignored because it is lower than the current wound level make a shock roll based on the current wound level. This removes the problem of firing rounds in wounded body parts for no outcome.

Let me know how the combat goes for you, plus if you're using stage 3 combat initiative timing let me know if you went insane

[Targan]

Perhaps I didn't explain my point very clearly in my previous post. My bad.

I'm not arguing that .454 Casull isn't a great round, it is a great round, a real man stopper. Same with .44 Magnum, .44 Automag, hell .50 AE. All great. What I was saying is that in a Twilight-type environment as a GM I'd want a pretty solid explanation from a player as to how their character was managing to pack that kind of weapon and where they are getting their ammo from. I don't know the details of your campaign Gabe so for all I know it is in a setting where those sorts of weapons and ammo are common.

Another reason I find it unusual is that you've just started the campaign. I ran a campaign of T2K for nealy 10 years (9 months game time) and the characters did end up ammassing a cache of interesting goodies. Just sounds like you have a very lenient GM. Once again, it comes down to campaign style and taste. If you and your fellow players prefer playing in a campaign where you have immediate access to hard core (and rare) firepower then good for you. Its all about enjoying the game right?

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by Targan

Perhaps I didn't explain my point very clearly in my previous post. My bad.

I'm not arguing that .454 Casull isn't a great round, it is a great round, a real man stopper. Same with .44 Magnum, .44 Automag, hell .50 AE. All great. What I was saying is that in a Twilight-type environment as a GM I'd want a pretty solid explanation from a player as to how their character was managing to pack that kind of weapon and where they are getting their ammo from. I don't know the details of your campaign Gabe so for all I know it is in a setting where those sorts of weapons and ammo are common.

Another reason I find it unusual is that you've just started the campaign. I ran a campaign of T2K for nealy 10 years (9 months game time) and the characters did end up ammassing a cache of interesting goodies. Just sounds like you have a very lenient GM. Once again, it comes down to campaign style and taste. If you and your fellow players prefer playing in a campaign where you have immediate access to hard core (and rare) firepower then good for you. Its all about enjoying the game right?

I'd think allmost any kind of ammo would be plausibel......for a limited amount of time offcourse

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by General Pain

I'd think allmost any kind of ammo would be plausibel......for a limited amount of time offcourse

That's true -- you can kill someone bare-handed if you get the right opening.

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by Gabe The Gun

Also, that seems more harsh than meant to be so please dont take offense, im not trying to bash anyone, just trying to get my point across gentlemen.

None taken! <G>

Originally Posted by Gabe The Gun

Well first of all, I really appreciate everyones concerns, but, in my opinion, if you didnt shoot somebody in the head and cause major head trauma to cause instant death, you can shoot all you want in real life with a handgun and have to wait for the bleed out for someone to die. Thats just how the human body works,its called "shock". So........on the other hand, if your going up against these type of NPC's in the game ill-equiped that is YOUR bad, not the systems. The reality aspects are there for me!

The thing is (from memory) that stock NPCs (including Veterans and Elites) have one damage track that is equivalent to the chest hit location for a PC. A more experienced NPC just has more points and so you can get a situation where you're putting additional bullets into an NPC for no additional impact in game terms.

Leonpoi's second comment below appears to address the same issue but for PCs or Star NPCs who have different wound tracks for different locations. The issue is the "Recurring Injuries rule" on page 152 of the main rulebook by the way.

Originally Posted by leonpoi

I've played 2013 a bit and I think it needs 2 house rules but is otherwise fine:

1. MoS are split evenly between bullets in a burst attack. This replaces the default rules whereby every bullet gets the same overall MoS. This tones burst down a tad. Any bullets that can't be allocated a MoS are grazing shots.

2. when wounded body parts are hit again but the wound is ignored because it is lower than the current wound level make a shock roll based on the current wound level. This removes the problem of firing rounds in wounded body parts for no outcome.

Let me know how the combat goes for you, plus if you're using stage 3 combat initiative timing let me know if you went insane

With regards to other firearms besides those in the main rulebook there are several weapons guide pdfs that you can buy quite cheaply that have a load of extra weapons in them as well as a load of officially detailed (as in by the game designers) weapons on the official forums. Well worth checking out.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Gabe The Gun

Well first of all, I really appreciate everyones concerns, but, in my opinion, if you didnt shoot somebody in the head and cause major head trauma to cause instant death, you can shoot all you want in real life with a handgun and have to wait for the bleed out for someone to die.

First off, let me thank you for introducing me to a cartridge that I'd never heard of before.

Now, to address your main point- You don't have to shoot someone in the head with a pistol to kill them instantly. If a pistol bullet hits the aorta or the heart, death is nearly instant. If both lungs collapse, death will follow pretty soon after. If the TW2013 rules don't address these very plausible possibilities, then they need a bit of a rewrite (i.e. erratta).

That said, I'd really like to take a good close look at the 2013 rules. I've heard lots of good things about them. I'm just not sure if I want to pay full price for a system I may not end up using.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Originally Posted by Raellus

First off, let me thank you for introducing me to a cartridge that I'd never heard of before.

Now, to address your main point- You don't have to shoot someone in the head with a pistol to kill them instantly. If a pistol bullet hits the aorta or the heart, death is nearly instant. If both lungs collapse, death will follow pretty soon after. If the TW2013 rules don't address these very plausible possibilities, then they need a bit of a rewrite (i.e. erratta).

That said, I'd really like to take a good close look at the 2013 rules. I've heard lots of good things about them. I'm just not sure if I want to pay full price for a system I may not end up using.

Don't forget shock, its a real killer.
Also of note the .454 will also fire 45 long colt rounds. Actully a better Big Revolver would be the S&W .460 magnum, it will fire .460 magnum, .454 casul, and .45 long colt ammo. That being said, they are revolvers and even it one starts with a limited supply of ammo, they could easily be reloaded, as is in the later parts of the war allot of ammo. You could possible in a pinch, load .45 bullets in them, though those are light bullets. It would not be hard to have a bullet mold made to cast your own bullets for the pistol, you would use rifle primers anyway and powder well you could even use black powder, but that might degrade performance a bit. Revolvers are also easier to keep tract of ones brass, when you unload you just stick the empty brass in a pouch. A semi-auto or automatic throws the brass all over the place and one does not always have time to pick up your brass in some area of hostile occupation.

I would never waist the weight carry capacity for such a big honking piece of metal myself, I would rather carry extra ammo for my main weapon (usually my only weapon).

[Dog 6]

you guys think its worth buying TW2013 for the background, toe, obo's from it ?

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

you guys think its worth buying TW2013 for the background, toe, obo's from it ?

I think that it is worth buying TW2013 for the rules (even if you decide to make a few tweaks). With the background you'll have to read it and then decide if you find it believable/credible or not as that is really a personal decision.

I personally think that the detail in the rules justify the cost though.

[drashal]

i have a comment on the ammo situation , if this is the players backup weapon he does not use it a lot so he will go through ammo a lot slower than his main weapon so even if you are running at war + 2 years its not unbelievable for the player to have 35 to 60 rounds left for the weapon and thats if he started the war with only two boxes of ammo. at 50 rounds a box which is not unrealistic for a weapon owner to have on hand at balloon day more if the players background is a survivalist type . plus while .454 ammo is not common so are the guns that use it so in a barter situation their is more of a chance that some ammo dealer would have it. i would expect the .22 long to be one of the first ammo types to vanish of the markets long before some of the more exotics

[Gabe The Gun]

The rules are very good in my opinion, I espacially like the character generation process. It is very in depth and detailed, takes longer but you feel alot more control over who and what your character is and can do.

[kato13]

I really like the character creation process. I mapped it out a while back when I was considering making it into a web application. I think it could be useful as it lists the page numbers you need to go to as you move through the process. A note this includes all the optional rules and it is not as complicated as it looks.

[Mohoender]

Doesn't that remind of a thread on powerpoint being the ennemy??

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Doesn't that remind of a thread on powerpoint being the ennemy??

Dang! Beat me to the zinger!