Weapons Timelines for the Twilight War

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Targan

I don't have a v1 timeline handy in front of me right now but in the canon v1 timeline were British troops involved in any great numbers in a major conflict during the late 1980s/ early to mid 1990s? If so perhaps that is where British forces were able to do their 'significant combat "test"'.

Like you I don't have a v1 timeline in front of me but I can't recall any such conflict being listed in either the initial box set or the Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom.

[perardua]

Having just dug out my T2K CD and checked the Survivor's Guide to the UK, the earliest mention of any military operations that could provide a testing ground for the L85 was the 1995 deployment of troops to Oman to fight guerillas there, along with the sale of equipment to the Sultan's military. That might at least provide a recognition of a need for an upgrade programme on the very doorstep of the war.

[HorseSoldier]

The version 1.0 timeline doesn't really provide any details about pre-1995 military operations, but does make references to various brushfire wars and such. Hypothetically the UK could have been involved in one. Or they might have seen the light without a war to suggest that something along the lines of the L85A2 was needed (though I suspect HK wouldn't get the nod, as I don't think the UK would let their domestic small arms industry flush completely down the toilet with the cold war still kicking).

Most likely, the L85 sucks and the SLRs get pulled in volume. If the problem is bad enough they might even place emergency orders for M16s from the US or Canada.

No L85A2 upgrade for HK probably means no G36 in the mix. If the G11 program fizzles, Germany may have gone for the HK33 and 53 for a NATO standard caliber -- either way, West German reservists are probably still carrying G3s, while the Osties will be going into action with their MPiK-74s for the active duty guys and probably AKMs for their reserves. (German logistics during the war must have been giving staff officers strokes even before the nukes.)

The US love affair with the M4 probably never really gets going, and the various marks of the M16 predominate for most people outside of SOF units. No post-Cold War demobilization and US support for the Baltic republics, however, does probably mean that last ditch US reservists and militia get issued M14s alongside the M16EZ kits.

The Czechoslovaks most likely field the LADA or some other sort of 5.45mm rifle to keep commonality with the mainstream Warsaw Pact (personally I'd like to see a 5.45mm version of the vz.58, but that doesn't look like the way they were going).

For everybody, the war between China and the USSR makes the world seem a more dangerous place, and programs to upgrade equipment might get pushed harder. The HK416 seems unlikely, but some of the smaller European nations currently using Diemaco/Colt Canada rifles as replacements for G3s could happen. With rush procurement programs, there'd likely be a lot of the old kit left over even before people start scraping the bottom of the barrel later in the war.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

No L85A2 upgrade for HK probably means no G36 in the mix. If the G11 program fizzles, Germany may have gone for the HK33 and 53 for a NATO standard caliber -- either way, West German reservists are probably still carrying G3s, while the Osties will be going into action with their MPiK-74s for the active duty guys and probably AKMs for their reserves. (German logistics during the war must have been giving staff officers strokes even before the nukes.)

The Czechoslovaks most likely field the LADA or some other sort of 5.45mm rifle to keep commonality with the mainstream Warsaw Pact (personally I'd like to see a 5.45mm version of the vz.58, but that doesn't look like the way they were going).

Thanks. I hadn't come across references to he MPiK-74 or the LADA before. Nice. With Romania, Poland, and Bulgaria switching to AK-74 clones, and with around five to seven years of full scale production of these weapons (prior to the TDM in late '97), 5.45mm ammo would be more common, and 7.62mm S less so, on the front lines in Europe.

Based on what I've read, I think Germany would more likely ramp up production of the 5.56mm G41 instead of the G33. There's not much of a difference, as far as I can tell.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

...If the G11 program fizzles, Germany may have gone for the HK33 and 53 for a NATO standard caliber -- either way, West German reservists are probably still carrying G3s...

The G41 would likely have been chosen before the HK33 as it was inline with the G11 for re-equipping rear echelon units that wouldn't need the G11. So you'd probably see front line troops with the G11 (and then whatever they got to replace it when ammo became scarce), rear area troops with the G41, Reservists with the G3 and Uzi then whatever police and ad hoc units they could make equipping with the leftovers including MP5s, the HK33 and HK53


Now that I read the rest of Raellus' post, from what I recall the G41 had a bolt hold-open device, dust cover on the ejection port and a magazine well for STANAG mags but otherwise was an updated HK33 design

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Thanks. I hadn't come across references to he MPiK-74 or the LADA before. Nice. With Romania, Poland, and Bulgaria switching to AK-74 clones, and with around five to seven years of full scale production of these weapons (prior to the TDM in late '97), 5.45mm ammo would be more common, and 7.62mm S less so, on the front lines in Europe.

The East Germans did a pretty nice AK, if the 74s I got to do fam fire and training with are any indication. (The Bulgarian 5.45 ammo was less nice -- after several mags of one lot a bunch of us started feeling like exposed skin was burning -- I've probably got cancer care of Eastern European quality control or something . . .)



I've never seen a LADA outside of pictures, but the SGM at my last unit went through the SGM Academy with a bunch of senior NCOs from former Warsaw Pact nations and the word of mouth among them seemed to be the it set a new standard for AK type weapons. Judging from the pictures, it does seem to fix some of the ergonomics on the AK.

I agree that 5.45x39 would be the primary round used by most of the Warsaw Pact forces when the war in Europe kicks off. By the time the Cat C reserves get mobilized, vintage AKs might be as common. I don't think the AKMR idea GDW had would really pan out -- AKM to AK-74 conversion would require surgery to the receiver, a new barrel, new gas tube, new bolt, etc. By the time you've done all that, it can't be much cheaper than just building a new AK-74.

Based on what I've read, I think Germany would more likely ramp up production of the 5.56mm G41 instead of the G33. There's not much of a difference, as far as I can tell.

I was thinking the G41 was just the German military G# for the HK33, but Wikipedia has corrected my errors. I'd agree that the G41 would be the go to gun, though the idea of the Germans fielding a weapon using a STANAG 5.56mm magazine seems so exotic and weird it will take me a couple days to wrap my head around it .

[waiting4something]

I can't see the Germans or West Germans depending on whatever version of the story you go by, having many G11's if any issued at all. Germany is the front lines along with Poland, so their factories and labs would have got mauled by Warsaw Pact forces right off the bat. With no German Air Force the sky's would have been wide open for Warsaw Pact bombers.
The G11 was teseted more then a lot of other experimental weapons, but it had begun back in the 1970's and still was only being looked at. When the wall came down, they said their was no need for such a weapon and the project was just thrown out like that. Not much later the Germans went ahead and bought new G36's though. I believe they where never that sold on the G11 or really all the serious about bringing it into production. It was just a showboat piece. I have never seen one outside of pictures or a museum and it was made in my lifetime and was supposed to be a standard rifle for a whole army. I guessing no one else has ever seen one either.
Lots of guns are put out there as being the gun that is gonna replace this and that but it never happens. If they are super exotic that seems to be a good give away it won't happen.

[waiting4something]

Another gun that I can't see being in the twilight war was the ever so popular HK CAW. Germany has never been big on shotguns period. So they are gonna jump from having no shotgun standard to this super shotgun that can fire special flechette rounds effectively out to like 150-200 meters. Shotgun magazines are bulky as hell, because the ammo it holds is also. This limits the amount of ammo you can haul around. So the thought of a soldier with maybe 6-7 10 round magazines rapidly blasting away with it seems not very likely outside law enforcement or elite units. This was another gun that was tested, but do to the ending of the cold war the (CAW) program just went away. If it was that great the U.S. military, who is a big user on shotguns would have gone ahead and grabbed this baby up. It was just another show boat piece just like the OICW. All hype with no intention of really taking off.
If I played the game, the only way I would let a PC or NPC have such weapons would be if they where a person directly involved with it like a civilian lab tech/engineer or a military dude that gets to play with/test futureless weapons.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The HK CAWS wasn't designed for the West Germans and they never intended adopting it. It was designed for the US Army under the Close Assault Weapon System program of the 1980s.
As for the G11, it most definitely was wanted by the West Germans. It was seen as a system needed to counter the Warsaw Pact's numerical superiority in manpower and was the result of studies conducted to find a system that offered a higher probability of first round hit than the then current generation of weapons. As mentioned previously, the G11 was to go to first line units while the G41 was to go to second line units.
There are two significant reasons for why it was stopped. The first being the reunification of the two Germanys (and subsequent end of the Cold War) and the fact that some of the people in other nations were survivors of World War 2 and were seen by the Germans as being potentially worried about Germany being whole again and then developing Wunderwaffe

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

The HK CAWS wasn't designed for the West Germans and they never intended adopting it. It was designed for the US Army under the Close Assault Weapon System program of the 1980s.
As for the G11, it most definitely was wanted by the West Germans. It was seen as a system needed to counter the Warsaw Pact's numerical superiority in manpower and was the result of studies conducted to find a system that offered a higher probability of first round hit than the then current generation of weapons. As mentioned previously, the G11 was to go to first line units while the G41 was to go to second line units.
There are two significant reasons for why it was stopped. The first being the reunification of the two Germanys (and subsequent end of the Cold War) and the fact that some of the people in other nations were survivors of World War 2 and were seen by the Germans as being potentially worried about Germany being whole again and then developing Wunderwaffe

Yes, the CAW was being looked at for the U.S.A., in the game it was used by the Germans too. That's why I mentioned the German factor. I'm still not convinced however the Germans where that serious about the G11. They had a long time to get that thing going and they buried it and went with a G36 later. The U.S.A. was dicking around with the G11 a little too, but never shined to it. We also where looking at a gun made by Colt that was similar to the M16 but fired duplex rounds. The thing is if they really wanted it bugs and all, the Germans would have atleast had a few in there miltary like the the Russians have the AN-94. Hey, whatever happen to the AN-94 anyway? It was supposed to replace the AK series, but from best I know very few ever filtered in.
I think your right the Germans on paper ideally planned for what you said, but however behind close doors they had other plans. This is just theory by me of course so take it with a grain a salt.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

It wasn't so much a case of the Germans burying the G11 and then going for the G36 later, the G36 was a direct result of the Germans not taking the G11 & G41 into service and being stuck with a 7.62mmN rifle when everyone else was going to 5.56mm.
The development of the rifle was delayed not so much because the rifle presented problems but the ammunition did. HK didn't develop the ammo, Dynamit Nobel did and the caseless design went through many iterations before they came up with a round that would not cook off, they settled on a watered down rocket propellant from what I recall.
This page from HKPro has more info
http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?optio...types&Itemid=5
While HKPro has a lot of information, they fail to mention that Mauser was also developing their own entry for the G11 rifle and caseless rounds. I think they pulled out early on because they couldn't sort out ammunition problems. Rheinmetall were also developing a non-traditional ammunition in the 9/4mm Kaltmann which saw the plastic case get ejected out of the barrel while the primer and base were consumed during the normal combustion process

Some sources claim 1000 rifles were produced but more conservative estimates place the number at just 100
It should be remembered that HK were financially screwed by the cancellation of the G11/G41 deal, leading the way for Royal Ordnance of the UK to buy the company. HK's survival depended on the G11, I can't imagine that they would put themselves into such a situation if the plans were to never adopt the G11 in the first place. Apparently in an effort to make some money HK tried selling the G41 but it was considered too expensive by most potential buyers. Getting the contract to update the L85A1 to the A2 model basically saved their arse from being broken up and sold off.

As for the AN94, the Russians did get some but budget problems caused a major cutback in purchasing. Instead of all the AK74s being replaced, the AN94 was taken into service only by certain elite units

[waiting4something]

Yes, I remember something about the G11 ammo being a major probelm, which is another reason I find it hard to believe that this weapon would have been fielded. It wouldn't be a good idea at the height of the cold war to try to produce a ammunition that only one or two company's made. It's not a great idea that both those company's are in Germany eithier, which could have red tanks pulling up in the parking lot in a short amount of time.
But, still why do all that research and development to just throw something away? Why not sell your product to law enforcement? HK just does dumb shit sometimes. They tend to snub the civil American market, which doesn't make sense eithier. I think they just have a history of bad marketing. HK may have thought they were going sell their gun, but that doesn't mean the military really thought they where gonna buy it.
As for the G41 if it was that much more then the G36, I could buy that. Again though why not sell it to the civilian market? Their are enough HK fans out there that will pay unreal prices for there stuff, but the company fails to see or really care.
Sometimes people have great hopes of selling their gear and shit falls though. The same thing happened with the Thompson submachine gun. Thompson thought he had a winner.But, it was deemed to expensive and really didn't get any major sales until WW2.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Yes, I remember something about the G11 ammo being a major probelm, which is another reason I find it hard to believe that this weapon would have been fielded. It wouldn't be a good idea at the height of the cold war to try to produce a ammunition that only one or two company's made. It's not a great idea that both those company's are in Germany eithier, which could have red tanks pulling up in the parking lot in a short amount of time.
But, still why do all that research and development to just throw something away? Why not sell your product to law enforcement? HK just does dumb shit sometimes. They tend to snub the civil American market, which doesn't make sense eithier. I think they just have a history of bad marketing. HK may have thought they were going sell their gun, but that doesn't mean the military really thought they where gonna buy it.

Your first point is the same one I was trying to make towards the beginning of this thread, about why I don't think the G-11 would have been fielded even in the T2K timeline. The ammo's the problem, and there's just too much 5.56mm NATO and 7.62mm NATO ammunition already on hand to make adoption of a weapon with totally different ammunition worth it. It's the same strike that the US military had against the G-11 during the ACR competition. It's the primary obstacle against adoption of a cartridge like 6.8mm SPC or 6.5mm Grendel weapons for the US military now.

However, I think HK stuck with the development of the G-11 for as long as they did because...damnit, it is a good idea! It's a revolutionary weapon that promised to greatly reduce the weight of ammunition that a soldier would have to carry, as well as greatly reducing the amount of dirt that got into the mechanism of the weapon. It's a very compact rifle that has accuracy on par with most other designs of its time, and the 4.7mm Caseless round had damage potential almost on par with the 5.56mm NATO round while having better penetration. The damn thing even floats, from some descriptions I've heard! It was tested extensively by US and NATO special operations units (including, it is rumored, under combat conditions by US special ops units and the SAS), and they loved it. The shooters and armorers in the US ACR competition had a lot of praise for it. Getting past the adoption of radically-different ammunition and figuring out what to do with tens of millions of rounds of your old ammo is the problem!

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

The same thing happened with the Thompson submachine gun. Thompson thought he had a winner.But, it was deemed to expensive and really didn't get any major sales until WW2.

Yes, even American gangsters didn't field the Thompson in anywhere the numbers that the movies would have you believe. Neither did the FBI or Treasury Service. The widespread use of the Thompson before World War 2 was largely a Hollywood invention.

[HorseSoldier]

The CAW seems like a really cool solution in search of a problem. Outside of RPGs and video games, the full auto shotgun just hasn't really caught on. It's not surgical and precise enough to appeal to many SOF types, it's not range effective enough to be a general service weapon, and really it's not much more effective (when you consider recoil) even at shotgun ranges than an assault rifle on auto.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

The CAW seems like a really cool solution in search of a problem. Outside of RPGs and video games, the full auto shotgun just hasn't really caught on. It's not surgical and precise enough to appeal to many SOF types, it's not range effective enough to be a general service weapon, and really it's not much more effective (when you consider recoil) even at shotgun ranges than an assault rifle on auto.

CAW-type weapons are very effective in one type of combat -- CQB. And that's assuming that you won't have to worry about possible civilian casualties or people you are trying to rescue that are in the same room. It's a weapon that has a very narrow range of applications, however -- it presents the problem that you will probably have to carry more than one type of longarm, and that CAW-type shotgun is a heavy weapon with heavy, low-capacity magazines and heavy ammunition. In addition, you have the weird ammo problem again -- most such weapons can't reliably feed conventional shotgun ammunition and require metal-cased shotgun rounds. (The Pancor Jackhammer is an example of a way around the ammo problem -- but it's also a rather bulky weapon with very bulky ammunition cassettes.)

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Yes, even American gangsters didn't field the Thompson in anywhere the numbers that the movies would have you believe. Neither did the FBI or Treasury Service. The widespread use of the Thompson before World War 2 was largely a Hollywood invention.

According to the book Public Enemies (on which the film of the same name is based), the Thompson was used in some numbers by many of the bank robbing gangs (Dillinger's, Floyds, Nelsons, Bonnie & Clyde, etc.) and the fledgling FBI. The book was well researched and written and I have no cause to doubt what the author described is not accurate.

I agree with Horse Soldier about the AKMR. You might as well manufacture a new, updgraded AKM than rechamber existing stocks of 7.62mm S AKs. In fact, the Russians have been doing so since the early '90s. It's called the AK-103.

Once again, everything that I've read suggests that W. Germany was ready to go ahead with the G11 program right up until the point where the Berlin Wall came down. The economic burden of absorbing the former E. Germany, coupled with the disappearance of the threat posed by the old USSR/Warsaw Pact, led to the cancellation of the relatively expensive G11. Since the reunified Germany still had a need for a new, standard assault rifle, HK developed the 5.56mm G36.

So, in the T2K v1.0 timeline, the G11 would have entered full production for front-line W. German units, while the G41 would have entered production for reservist units.

[headquarters]

I also read that the thawing of east west relations lead to budget cuts that buried the G-11 project .Technically it was pretty much ready to go .In a T2K world the same budget trouble might also end it though - if the cost of changing the old system with the new one seems to high in war time it would be shelved ?

Originally Posted by Raellus

According to the book Public Enemies (on which the film of the same name is based), the Thompson was used in some numbers by many of the bank robbing gangs (Dillinger's, Floyds, Nelsons, Bonnie & Clyde, etc.) and the fledgling FBI. The book was well researched and written and I have no cause to doubt what the author described is not accurate.

I agree with Horse Soldier about the AKMR. You might as well manufacture a new, updgraded AKM than rechamber existing stocks of 7.62mm S AKs. In fact, the Russians have been doing so since the early '90s. It's called the AK-103.

Once again, everything that I've read suggests that W. Germany was ready to go ahead with the G11 program right up until the point where the Berlin Wall came down. The economic burden of absorbing the former E. Germany, coupled with the disappearance of the threat posed by the old USSR/Warsaw Pact, led to the cancellation of the relatively expensive G11. Since the reunified Germany still had a need for a new, standard assault rifle, HK developed the 5.56mm G36.

So, in the T2K v1.0 timeline, the G11 would have entered full production for front-line W. German units, while the G41 would have entered production for reservist units.

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I also read that the thawing of east west relations lead to budget cuts that buried the G-11 project .Technically it was pretty much ready to go .In a T2K world the same budget trouble might also end it though - if the cost of changing the old system with the new one seems to high in war time it would be shelved ?

Or if it was just entering service when the war kicked off, especially if any teething problems presented themselves as often happens when you hand troops new kit, it might have been set aside in favor of proven designs that work.

[Legbreaker]

With regard to 4.7mm cls production, should the G11 have been fielded as I believe it would have been in V1.0, production of ammunition would have been a high priority and numerous facilities set up to do it. By the late 80's/early 90's all the ammo problems had been solved - the specs could have been distributed to the production facilities and within a short time hundreds of thousands of prepackaged rounds churned out for military consumption.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

With regard to 4.7mm cls production, should the G11 have been fielded as I believe it would have been in V1.0, production of ammunition would have been a high priority and numerous facilities set up to do it. By the late 80's/early 90's all the ammo problems had been solved - the specs could have been distributed to the production facilities and within a short time hundreds of thousands of prepackaged rounds churned out for military consumption.

Yes, but after the TDM, production of the more complex and tricky to manufacture caseless ammo would have all but ceased entirely, and the G11 would rapidly be abandoned in favor of old stockpiles of G3s and more recently produced G41s.

IRL, during the planned production of the G11, the G41 was to be produced as well, to equip territorial and reserve formations, while the G3 was to be phased out of service entirely (although I'm sure a few thousand would be kept on hand for use as designated marksman's rifles or for use by special forces).

In the Twilight War timeline (v1.0, of course), the G11 would probably become an expensive club in early-to-mid '98.

Then there's the matter of former DDR troops. How many would retain their East German-made AKMs/AK-74 clones? How many would be equipped with G41s or G3s? But we've discussed/debated that elsewhere.

[Legbreaker]

I do agree that after 1997 production will be minimal at best (perhaps a tech or two from a bombed factory salvaged enough equipment to produce a case a week), but up until mid to late 1997, hundreds of thousands of rounds would be produced in muliple locations every week. Some small stocks of ammunition would still exist though even in 2000, however these are likely to be in rear areas and closely hoarded - you won't see very much released for use on the front lines!

I see the east german forces retaining the weapons they had prior to reunification in the V1.0 timeline. There just isn't the time or facilities available to completely re-arm them on much more than an individual basis. As the war drags on though a mix of weapons are likely to be picked up as in other units of other nationalities, however the vast majority of troops will still be armed with the same weapons they started out with (or replaced with something similar).

In addition to a lack of available weapons to issue to the DDR, there's the training problem to overcome - a G3, G41, etc is a different animal to an AK and muscle memory takes time to develop. Also, I believe the tactics of the east Germans was somewhat different to the west and the issued weapons were designed with this in mind.

Effectively you'd have to retrain the DDR troops in virtually everything, not just weapon handling - this takes time which wasn't available in V1.0.

V2.x on the other hand with it's much earlier reunification makes retaining an easier task to accomplish.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Yes, but after the TDM, production of the more complex and tricky to manufacture caseless ammo would have all but ceased entirely, and the G11 would rapidly be abandoned in favor of old stockpiles of G3s and more recently produced G41s.

That was always the way I interpreted the G11 as it was described in the original V1 boxed set - by the year 2000 the weapon itself may not actually be that rare (relatively speaking) but the ammunition is.

[Raellus]

I agree that most former DDR troops would retain their Soviet/Pact-made weapons. I wonder how the Germans would handle weapons logistics for mixed/merged units combining West and former East German troops.

As for G11 ammo, I'm sure that the Germans would have manufactured millions of rounds before the nuclear strikes/TDM effectively shut down their advanced munitions factories. However, modern armies go through ammo like it's toilet paper. I can't remember the exact figure but the U.S. army expended like 10,000 rounds of small arms ammo for every confirmed VC/NVA KIA. To some degree, modern western armies have improved this ratio (and you can make wisecracks about American marksmanship) but the fact remains that caseless ammo for the G11 would be used up at a frantic rate and, by 2000, there would be very little, if any, left. Nearly all German troops would be using G3s, G41s, and AKs.

[95th Rifleman]

There was a very good reason why they came up with a NATO standard in the first place.

Take us Brits for instance, a British soldier can pick up an M-16 magazine and use it with an L85 as both weapons use the same amo and are compatible with each other's magazines. The whole principle behind NATO standardisation was so that eveybody could supply everybody else.

In a situation like the twilight war, this standardisation would go a long way to keep units operational. A wild-card weapon like the G-11 would rapisly dissappear due to how damned complicated it is. Especialy when ad-hoc formations comprising different nationalities become more and more common.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Hey, Kalashnikov was a tanker sergeant -- DATs don't even know one end of a rifle from the other!

What's there to compare....I mean, if you had the choice of inflicting massive amounts of damage with a 120mm smoothbore, finishing off your near helpless prey with a Ma Deuce and a pair of M-240s or cranking out 5.56mm from some rinky-dink Mighty Mattel....why would you need a rifle?

[dragoon500ly]

[QUOTE=Raellus;22333]According to the book Public Enemies (on which the film of the same name is based), the Thompson was used in some numbers by many of the bank robbing gangs (Dillinger's, Floyds, Nelsons, Bonnie & Clyde, etc.) and the fledgling FBI. The book was well researched and written and I have no cause to doubt what the author described is not accurate.[QUOTE]

What a lot of people forget is that many of the gangs actually used M1918 Browning Auto Rifles stolen from NG armories, or purchased. There is a photo of Bonny & Clyde for example that shows part of their arsenal on the hood of their car, including no less than four BARs. Dillinger is another one that used the BAR...

[95th Rifleman]

[QUOTE=dragoon500ly;33787][QUOTE=Raellus;22333]According to the book Public Enemies (on which the film of the same name is based), the Thompson was used in some numbers by many of the bank robbing gangs (Dillinger's, Floyds, Nelsons, Bonnie & Clyde, etc.) and the fledgling FBI. The book was well researched and written and I have no cause to doubt what the author described is not accurate.

What a lot of people forget is that many of the gangs actually used M1918 Browning Auto Rifles stolen from NG armories, or purchased. There is a photo of Bonny & Clyde for example that shows part of their arsenal on the hood of their car, including no less than four BARs. Dillinger is another one that used the BAR...

The Tommy gun looked good, it's undeniably one of the most impressive looking weapons of the era. Image goes a long way in crime, we see it today in inner-city gangs who try to promote the image that they are bigger, more bad-ass than the other guys. As a result the Tommy became the "poster boy" for proabition criminals. You point it at the other guy and hope intimidation does the job because no professional criminal wants to actualy kill someone as it adds time to any prison sentence and you run a greater risk that the cops will shoot to kil rather than risk their own lives taking you in.

The BAR was a superior weapon, this thing was a killer and criminals who didn't give a damn about consequences (such as bonnie and clyde) used such weapons because they enjoyed killing.

This is why the more public criminals had tommy guns and also why it's become associated with the era.

[Panther Al]

For what its worth, my mothers father did some work for Al C. in Chicago back in the day. When he died (Committed suicide by shooting himself in the back of the head with 3 different weapons, handcuffing himself to the steering wheel of a car, and driving real fast off of a dock in Miami, according to the local PD - No joke!) he owned 4 BAR's, and no Tommy guns. According to friends of the family that knew him I am told that by and large they felt the BAR was the way to go, the Tommy was nothing but show for people who wasn't man enough to handle a real rifle.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

For what its worth, my mothers father did some work for Al C. in Chicago back in the day. When he died (Committed suicide by shooting himself in the back of the head with 3 different weapons, handcuffing himself to the steering wheel of a car, and driving real fast off of a dock in Miami, according to the local PD - No joke!) he owned 4 BAR's, and no Tommy guns. According to friends of the family that knew him I am told that by and large they felt the BAR was the way to go, the Tommy was nothing but show for people who wasn't man enough to handle a real rifle.

OT
While I certainly am NOT trying to demean or condone his death (really that should be 'his murder'), I find a strangely ironic sense of the poetic in this only for one reason.
In your sig you have the line "Never use finesse when force works."