OT: Women on subs

[drashal]

As a former fast attack submariner I can tell to that fitting women on board is going to present some serious logistic issues.

1. the sleeping arrangements are going to make life hell for some women, hot bunking sucks as is for guys, for those who do not uunderstand a Los Angeles fast attack has only 85 bunks on it we have a crew of 110 to 120 depnding on varius things . so about 45 of us are double up on rack space and have to share with the guy on the opisate duty shift that you are on (pray you never get a guy who likes old spice aftershave that stuff smell sticks to every thing in a rack space.

2. then their is the absolute lack of privacy that you have on board (though for women they will hopefully give them one of the outer rack halls and curten it off,

3. the minimal head (bathroom) space, for enlisted we had 5 heads and 5 urnals for our usage which unless they rip the heads apart and design them it will real intresting for them.


4. add the fact that for a 4 month deployment alone each women is going to take up 4 to 5 extra cubic feet of space than a man does (sanitary supplies) now you may not think that is a lot but for 10 women that's a 2 to 3 days worth of rations for the whole crew that cuts back on deployment times.

please don't get me wrong i believe that any women who wants to join the sub community should be able to it just that they should be well aware of the draw backs of it. but also I believe that manitory long term contraceptives should be used (ie the 4+ month shot). getting out of deployment tours by pregnancy should be a disciplinary action. for a man any thing short of full medical will result in a court marshal. so why should some one volunteered for sub duty not be willing to make sure they are deployment ready. as for those who say the military cant force them to take it remember that while you are in the military the military really does own your ass . ask the guys who got court marshaled over tattoos for defacing government property.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by drashal

4. add the fact that for a 4 month deployment alone each women is going to take up 4 to 5 extra cubic feet of space than a man does (sanitary supplies) now you may not think that is a lot but for 10 women that's a 2 to 3 days worth of rations for the whole crew that cuts back on deployment times.

please don't get me wrong i believe that any women who wants to join the sub community should be able to it just that they should be well aware of the draw backs of it. but also I believe that manitory long term contraceptives should be used (ie the 4+ month shot).

If contraceptives were mandatory (particularly the injection) then you don't have to worry about sanitary supplies as women using the injected contraceptive (and some oral contraceptives) don't menstruate.

Edit: In response to a very reasonable observation about my above comment I feel I need to make it clear that in no way do I condone mandatory contraception. I wrote this post in response to the section of Drashal's post that I quoted, not because I in any way support forced interference in anybody's reproductive systems.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by drashal

1. the sleeping arrangements are going to make life hell for some women, hot bunking sucks as is for guys, for those who do not uunderstand a Los Angeles fast attack has only 85 bunks on it we have a crew of 110 to 120 depnding on varius things . so about 45 of us are double up on rack space and have to share with the guy on the opisate duty shift that you are on (pray you never get a guy who likes old spice aftershave that stuff smell sticks to every thing in a rack space.

Why should this be a problem? A woman being a full member of the crew, she must be treated as everyone else.

Originally Posted by drashal

2. then their is the absolute lack of privacy that you have on board (though for women they will hopefully give them one of the outer rack halls and curten it off,

That would be perfectly inacceptable. If things go that way, I would advise every sailors in the US submarine force to refuse orders.

Originally Posted by drashal

3. the minimal head (bathroom) space, for enlisted we had 5 heads and 5 urnals for our usage which unless they rip the heads apart and design them it will real intresting for them.

For my part I spend 45 min in my bath every morning while my wife is ready in less than 5 minutes.

Originally Posted by drashal

4. add the fact that for a 4 month deployment alone each women is going to take up 4 to 5 extra cubic feet of space than a man does (sanitary supplies) now you may not think that is a lot but for 10 women that's a 2 to 3 days worth of rations for the whole crew that cuts back on deployment times.

That will take 1 cubic foot (at most). We are talking of submarine sailor, not of the local bimbo.

Originally Posted by drashal

please don't get me wrong i believe that any women who wants to join the sub community should be able to it just that they should be well aware of the draw backs of it.

So does the men, I never wanted to get on subs exactly for the reasons you give. I managed to avoid tanks not to become the most obvious target on the battlefield.

[Mohoender]

Out of this entire exchange, the only point I can see against women in subs (or elsewhere) is men and men alone.

Just a point, military personnels are wearing uniforms. Just think of the meaning of this word: everyone the same. Things are as simple as that.

The first problem is that men lack the guts (as always I would say).

The second problem is that it has become a political issue: women must be accepted when they can do the job and accept the living conditions. No special arrangement have to be made for them. If they can't bear the smell they get on land and raise babies.

About the sex issue, it won't be an issue. I don't know much on life in sub but I don't expect that after your turn of duty you think about anything but rest. Moreover, If you have no privacy you have no way to get laid.

The German sub sailors (the woman) was saying something simple and I found it very true: to get into this kind of engagement, you must be somewhat crazy. I agreed with her.

[waiting4something]

Yes us men are the probelm. If you like TNA(women's that is) you are no different. Sure if you are not attracted to a woman that is one thing, but when we are, we always act different weither it is being nicer or being more antisocial to hide our desire for them. That's just real life. Think of school the military is just like a extension of school in a lot of ways.
I like the idea of women being in there own units, but that is unrealistic too.
Maybe I'm just a sexual pervert, but hey that's just me.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

If contraceptives were mandatory (particularly the injection) then you don't have to worry about sanitary supplies as women using the injected contraceptive (and some oral contraceptives) don't menstruate.

Reminds me of the soldiers (male and female in each unit) in The Forever War -- one of the first things they did at the reception station was to take a sperm sample and then gives the males a vasectomy, and take eggs from the females and then tie their tubes.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

If contraceptives were mandatory (particularly the injection) then you don't have to worry about sanitary supplies as women using the injected contraceptive (and some oral contraceptives) don't menstruate.

That, I think, would be perfect, even in normal life, if both the man and woman were taking contraceptives. And come to think of it, just the other day on the news, I did see a story about a male contraceptive pill being developed...

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Yes us men are the probelm. If you like TNA(women's that is) you are no different. Sure if you are not attracted to a woman that is one thing, but when we are, we always act different weither it is being nicer or being more antisocial to hide our desire for them. That's just real life. Think of school the military is just like a extension of school in a lot of ways.
I like the idea of women being in there own units, but that is unrealistic too.
Maybe I'm just a sexual pervert, but hey that's just me.

You are not a pervert at all . Many men will act like you. However, as much as I love women, I've never found any problem to act as if they were not women. When a job has to be done, it has to be done that's it. In that case they are just another human being. If you really want to protect them/her, there is only one way to act: do your job and let them do theirs. Watch their back and let them watch yours .

I try to have both of my brains working together (the bottom and the top one, I mean). Do the job! When it's done, do as you please.

[Eddie]

You're also in your '40s, right?

Can you honestly say that you weren't distracted at 18/19/20. That's the average age of these kids. The leaders are more mature, yes, but some of these guys are just out of high school. And if you can honestly say that, I commend you, but you're the exception, not the norm. At least in our culture.

And you're right, Germany has integrated all of their professions, not just subs or military work. Unfortunately, that wasn't a choice they wanted, it was forced on them by their membership in the EU according to a German Army Captain in my class. The majority of German military personnel aren't too pleased with it either.

[headquarters]

Got it up here too - we are not Union , but we have always had strong women up here that do as they please .All branches are integrated.

I think you get used to whatever your situation is . Working alongside women will be ok as soon as you get some experience with it .

have had women both over and under me in the service - cant say that either caused a problem based on their sex alone.( rank people - think rank ).

Now- we werent exactly manouvering a nuclear submarine with warheads and the whole kablammo onboard - more like a SISU xa 185 APC ( has propellers, can ford rivers etc ) but not navy per se

Anyways .We have had women on subs for many years .First female Submarine captain in 1995 .Enlisted and other ranks ,have been many over the years .Typical Norge crew is diesel electric ,app 25 person crew and probably no months on end long cruises .Works in our navy .maybe not in others. Just saying -the examples are there .

Was very bashful at 19 - might have been distracting yeah .

Originally Posted by Eddie

You're also in your '40s, right?

Can you honestly say that you weren't distracted at 18/19/20. That's the average age of these kids. The leaders are more mature, yes, but some of these guys are just out of high school. And if you can honestly say that, I commend you, but you're the exception, not the norm. At least in our culture.

And you're right, Germany has integrated all of their professions, not just subs or military work. Unfortunately, that wasn't a choice they wanted, it was forced on them by their membership in the EU according to a German Army Captain in my class. The majority of German military personnel aren't too pleased with it either.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Eddie

The majority of German military personnel aren't too pleased with it either.

Military personnel have never been pleased with changes any way. Not so long ago, they were not even willing to accept submarines in our various navies. Took, multiple defeats to accept tanks, not to talk of aircrafts. Military personnel always had more in common with old widows than with anything else.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Military personnel have never been pleased with changes any way.

That's a very broad statement and largely unfounded. We're always looking for ways to better our organizations and make our jobs safer.

What we dislike and resist is an outside source, the majority of which hasn't been in our organization or a similar one, dictating our policies and procedures to us.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Military personnel have never been pleased with changes any way. Not so long ago, they were not even willing to accept submarines in our various navies. Took, multiple defeats to accept tanks, not to talk of aircrafts. Military personnel always had more in common with old widows than with anything else.

What, you're kidding, right? What's the first thing that happens in any unit of any size when a new officer or senior NCO takes over? He changes as much as possible, trying to leave his mark on the unit -- for good or bad. When I was in the Army, we used to say we would always know when a new TRADOC commanding general was appointed -- all the manuals would change. The changes that officers and senior NCOs are so resistant to are the ones that aren't their ideas.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

What, you're kidding, right?

Of course I am!!! Damn it, there are still people to take me seriously on these kind of statements. You are getting too serious people sometimes.