Sub Machine guns

[Brother in Arms]

I wondered how much you guys have used SMG's in twilight games? I know I have read about character using MP5's especially the silenced version and Uzi's but its seems that most characters op for an assault rifle of some sort.

my character obtained a PPSH-41 in one of the few twilight games I played. In another game a fellow PC captured Scorpion VZ-61 but couldn't get a good supply of ammo(.32 ACP) for it so it was useless.

I think Sten and home made tube receiver guns would be plentiful as long as there was enough ammo around to warrant there manufacture.

However I never really thought that there wouldn't be a plentiful supply of firearms laying around after the war. I think there just be less ammo to shoot out of them.

Brother in Arms

[Rainbow Six]

A campaign I played in in the 1990's had a female Bundeswehr NPC (Hauptmann Steffi von Greiffenberg) whose personal weapon was an Uzi.

On a more recent note, I have a lot of Sterlings in use in the reference work that I'm doing on the UK - no stens though.

[Grimace]

I had several players that always wanted the silenced MP-5. It got somewhat ridiculous, so I started limiting a weapon that already should have been fairly uncommon to get. When they couldn't get the silenced version they would go for a regular MP-5.

Then they realized that with an MP-5 their engagement ranges had to become a whole lot shorter, which they didn't really care for too much. After some rather close calls against Soviets armed with assault rifles, the started to take a fairly even mix of sub machine guns and assault rifles just so they could have a wider spectrum of engagement ranges.

[Haven]

For the first time ever my PC's are going to be using SMG's and Pistols (OMG!) in order to take down a house because with the Twilight 2013 rules it actually rewards using a smaller weapon in small spaces.
(for those that want to know: this is due to the range bands and each weapon has an 'optimum' range. Using a big weapon inside its 'optimum' range costs more ticks aka time to shoot, and a pistol is nearly as deadly as an assault rifle, and largely depending on how good your shot is not the caliber of the weapon)



During my twilight 2000 rules campaigns everyone wanted the big G3 or FN-FAL with the big punch. 'Blk' rating be damned.

Sometimes they might use a shotgun, but generally, due to the weak damage on SMGs and pistols they were relegated to the extreme backup weapon.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Haven

Twilight 2013 rules it actually rewards using a smaller weapon in small spaces.

This is pretty cool and yet one more reason to check out T2013.

With v2.2, there's really no compelling reason, rules-wise, to carry an SMG. SMGs, although lighter, can't compete range or damage-wise. I've had players switch to an AR after the first encounter because of this. The only time I've seen them used IG is when they are equipped with a silencer.

[Brother in Arms]

the new rules sound pretty good in relation to size of a weapon, it is hard to maneuver with a full sized battle rifle inside a building (though they did it all the time in ww2)

Assault rifles, Sub machine guns and, shotguns and pistols are probably all pretty good choices for indoors. I think a submachine gun would be perfect inside, I would feel a little under equipped with one out doors though, where ranges could be greater than I feel they would be effective. But in the past the SMG gunners where usually supported by rifle men so it wouldn't be so bad in a fire team.

I think the closest I would carry to an SMG would be an assault rifle carbine.

if I was doing door kicking in t2k I would take an AK-74SU using the 45 round RPK-74 magazines.

Or perhaps even better would be a Hungarian AMD-65 with a Russian 75 round drum magazine. One thing I would change on the AMD-65 is unscrew its massive "flash suppressor" and replace it with a simple slant break from an AKM which reduces the length of the rifle even more.

Brother in Arms

[Twilight2000v3MM]

I'm going to use a quote made by Clayton O. when we playtested the combat system ....

"A G-3 is NOT a CQB weapon."

My players usually used MP5SD3s and UMP's in .45 ACP.

I'm a fan of the Colt SMG. Stick a can on the end and you're good to go.

[smokewolf]

Originally Posted by Twilight2000v3MM

I'm going to use a quote made by Clayton O. when we playtested the combat system ....

"A G-3 is NOT a CQB weapon."

My players usually used MP5SD3s and UMP's in .45 ACP.

I'm a fan of the Colt SMG. Stick a can on the end and you're good to go.

Just don't let Snake Eyes have a M-4 with a Reflex site. He'll frak some crap up.

Man that just doesn't sound as cool when censored.

[LAW0306]

you cant use a G-3 in close combat?? so the Rhodesian defense forces and the indian army to name a few have never won battles doing this..the FN Fal battle rifle never used....once again 93 studios lack of weapons use or employment...

I just finished foriegn weapons instructor course at Quantico Virginia..I dont know anything......

and this is from me not the DC group My opions are mine alone unless publised in a book from our group...

[Tegyrius]

What the hell? Did I kick your dog when I wasn't looking?

Law, I made that statement in relation to the game engine, not as a sweeping generalization on military history. As others have previously noted in this thread, the Reflex System does factor a weapon's bulk into the speed with which a user can orient on target. I did this explicitly to solve what the design team perceived as a problem in most game systems, in which all firearms have identical speeds from contact distance out to their maximum ranges. When we were first working on this particular mechanic, I didn't want M82A1s being optimal CQB weapons, and I wanted there to be a reason for players to use smaller weapons (with lower Damage values) in that environment.

- C.

[pmulcahy11b]

OK, ok, Law may have a rather brusque temperament (I had a bad first impression), but he knows what he's talking about and I now regard him as a friend (even if he is a Marine).

Law, take it easy on Tegyrius. He's new here and doesn't know our personalities yet. And just because he's new doesn't mean he doesn't know anything.

Let's have a cease fire, guys.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

OK, ok, Law may have a rather brusque temperament (I had a bad first impression), but he knows what he's talking about and I now regard him as a friend (even if he is a Marine).

Law, take it easy on Tegyrius. He's new here and doesn't know our personalities yet. And just because he's new doesn't mean he doesn't know anything.

Let's have a cease fire, guys.

Thanks I was crafting just such a response but you said it perfectly.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

LAW,

OK let me explain how the comment was made.

We were testing the combat system and we had one guy armed with an AK, one with an SMG, one with an M-4 and REFLEX sight, and one guy with a G-3. We chose the weapons at random and, IIRR, Clayton drew a G-3.

The outcome of the exchange was that Snake, armed with the M-4, SMOKED Clayton on initiative and hosed him in CQB range. In actuallity both weapons are about the same performance at that range.

The joke just stood because Snake rolled so well on initiative and the way the position of both combatants were in just made the M-4 look like THE weapon to have while the G-3 didnt "look" like the studly weapon to have.

Yes the G-3 can be used as a CQB weapon but for JUST strickly CQB and as a CQB weapon the SMG still rules - in my theoretical and practical experience that is.

[Tegyrius]

Paul and Kato, I hope you'll allow me to be more than a little irked here. I don't see this as an isolated post. Law seems to have a serious case of the ass where 93GS and the 2013 project are concerned. I don't know what the source of his anger is, but I hope his attitude is not representative of the forum's overall membership. Quite frankly, I expect better from this particular game's fan community.

Max, speaking of cases of the ass, you seem to keep wanting to make me the target in that test fight. I was moderating; 'twas Cap who got himself, uh, disarmed. So to speak.

- C.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

C. - sorry brother... you are right it was Keith that got "light' up" not you and Simon got ... 'eerrr - disARMed but I was the one that got my A$$ capped FIRST in the first few rounds of the gunfight and I had the AKM. LOL

Hey - they'res an old saying in law enforcement - "If they don't make fun of you then they don't like you."

[Matt Wiser]

My SEALs (and the others in the unit) mostly use long guns, but SMGs do make an appearance on occasion: we do have a couple MP-5SDs at hand, (the subsonic ammo for 'em in Krakow was very expensive), along with a MAC-10 (the player was insistent on having one) in 9-mm. There are times when SMGs do come in handy. We used the SDs on a Kelly's Heroes type op (breaking a bank in E. Poland guarded by T-80s and some nasty KGB Border Guards), and when the two female POWs were liberated (the silenced weapons were very useful that night). There's also a couple of standard MP-5s available, and two of the tankers use Uzis they picked up somewhere.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Matt - FYI bud the MP5SD doesn't really need subsonic ammo. The barrel is only like 6" long I think and it is drilled with several small holes close to the chamber. This reduces the pressure and thus reducing the velocity of the 9mm round to below 272m per second at sea level. :-)

[Snake Eyes]

Originally Posted by Twilight2000v3MM

Yes the G-3 can be used as a CQB weapon but for JUST strickly CQB and as a CQB weapon the SMG still rules - in my theoretical and practical experience that is.

I figure if a battle rifle was the correct tool for every job, HK wouldn't bother making submachineguns because there'd be no market for them. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that "The G3 is not an entry weapon" quote was mine. I was not being literal in any sense of the word, it was in regard to me getting the drop on Smoke and Bowman on an insane initiative roll in a specific early playtesting scenario and had nothing at all to do with anybody's real world knowledge of anything.

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by kato13

Thanks I was crafting just such a response but you said it perfectly.

and I thought someone had sand in their v*gaina......

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by LAW0306

you cant use a G-3 in close combat?? so the Rhodesian defense forces and the indian army to name a few have never won battles doing this..the FN Fal battle rifle never used....once again 93 studios lack of weapons use or employment...

I just finished foriegn weapons instructor course at Quantico Virginia..I dont know anything......

and this is from me not the DC group My opions are mine alone unless publised in a book from our group...

That maybe so law ,but ease up man..

G-3 or AG-3 as we call it is not THAT unwieldy imho.

It is the standard weapon for our forces so far ( although we are changing to HK 416 in 5.56) .

It is a fair all round weapon as I see it -obviously better suited for longer ranges than the extreme close ups .But have done plenty entry drills with it-getting quick shots (pun ) is not that hard .

I guess I would prefer a 5.56 carbine but I could make do with a AG-3 .As for pistols-well I guess some people have the nescessary training to effectively employ these in combat but as a general rule they are better for other purposes than outright battle.

all imho -h for humble as usual .

Otherwise - I am all for the ceasefire message someone posted or better yet - peace guys!

We are here to discuss our hobby and for the love of the game -and we have other threads for discussions that cross the border to other topics .I suggest maybe a firearms thread or a rules vs real life thread for discussions that venture into this?

Anyhow -the people at T2013 should have noticed that the boards are generally positive to the new installment.

As for stats and rules etc -they are all there to try and simulate the variations that might occur in combat as far as the game goes -not as far as actual combat goes.I got plenty of issues with the rules (v.2.0 preferred ) and the game etc myself -so out with the pen and paper and voila -amended version w/ house rules ready for beta testing .So far we have amended the melee rules ,the aerial combat rules,the damage rules,the combat rules ,added new skills like systems operator and quickdraw , rules for taking drugs ,having psycological problems and stress disorders,boating and waterborne combat ,ground vehicle use etc etc

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

I wondered how much you guys have used SMG's in twilight games? I know I have read about character using MP5's especially the silenced version and Uzi's but its seems that most characters op for an assault rifle of some sort.

my character obtained a PPSH-41 in one of the few twilight games I played. In another game a fellow PC captured Scorpion VZ-61 but couldn't get a good supply of ammo(.32 ACP) for it so it was useless.

I think Sten and home made tube receiver guns would be plentiful as long as there was enough ammo around to warrant there manufacture.

However I never really thought that there wouldn't be a plentiful supply of firearms laying around after the war. I think there just be less ammo to shoot out of them.


Brother in Arms

An smg is a nasty weapon in RL ,but most players tend to forgo them and take an assault rifle instead because of th ebetter range ,pen and damage this offers -much like in real life imho.

A submachinegun is certainly not to be trifled with but compared to a 5.56 carbine or a 7,62N rifle it is a pea shooter in most cases.The assault rifle was pretty much designed to fill the gap that the smg couldnt cover and the LMG was to bulky for doing .

That said ,it is often a nimble addition to an armoury and look to the simple smg of the 30s sten,owen,Mp-40 (to some degree at least ) and possibly the M3 ,ppsh-43,that German mp-3000 or whats its name and even the Japanese designs from 1945 -could be made in a basement and thus
would be prolific in a world were arms supply is poor but fighting is everywhere.

A British fellow named Luty has even published manuals of homemade smgs made from over the counter plumbing items .

As for actual use in game PCs used them earlier on until they got wise to the fact that for just "1" higer bulk rating they could have something like a short barrelled collapsible stock M16 /M177 etc .

In a more civvie game were concealment is a factor I suppose SMGs would be more frequent with our group .


If it isnt out of order I would like to point out that most of these are on our site
www.thebigbookofwar.50megs.com under "Guns".

[Targan]

1. Guys, guys, guys, we're all on the same side remember? My natural attitude is that if I know someone knows their sh*t I'll listen to them first, others second. All of us have our own areas of specialist knowledge and I'd like to think that people listen to me when I talk about things I have first hand (especially in a professional capacity) knowledge of.

2. In my current campaign SMGs are most used (well maybe used isn't the right word, more like carried) by Major Po's support personnel such as mechanics and armourers. Some of Po's line troops have SMGs (especially silenced SMGs) but they are not at all the most used weapons.

[Brother in Arms]

that reminded me of the twilight game I ran in Colorado...my Pc's had found a ww2 weapons cache in a museum the game actually took place in Ukraine. All the players where civillians. One of the players worked in a musuem and knew that they had a great war display that was in the attic,in which they found 1. 91/30 PU 1. SVT-40 1. DP-28 1. PPSH-41 1.TT-33 Tokarev. Also one of the PC's had a double barreled shotgun that he had used for hunting. All told they had 1 mag for the SVT-40, 2 pan mags for the Dp-28. 1-drum mag for the PPSH-41. 2 mag for the TT-33. They also found a bunch of mosin stripper clips.

Sadly In the display there where only 5 live rounds of 7.62x54R! which they loaded in the 91/30 PU. And they had a couple boxes of bird shot for the shotgun. So they had close and long range covered and a lot of intimidating but not loaded military firearms!

Eventually they found a wrecked BTR. Which they thought was empty. So they sent the sneakiest PC up to inspect it. She was armed only with the unloaded TT-33. Little did they know there was already a couple of Brigands looting it, one was inside and the other was covering him both of them where armed with Russian SKS rifles. She managed to get up to the BTR without the cover man noticing her and got the drop on the guy in the BTR and held him at gunpoint with an unloaded gun! The guy covering him didn't see her but did notice the guy with the Dp-28 and got nervous and started shooting his SKS at that guy. The PC's were all hiding behind a wall at the time and he didn't hit any of them, but he did manadged to give away his position. The PC armed with the 91/30 Pu was able to take aim and shoot him before he could reload his SKS. At that the other brigand who was now ordered out of the BTR. He was told to put down his rifle he began to and but went for the girl with the unloaded Tokarev. She hit deck and he got dusted by the PC with the shotgun. The brigand was actually mortally wounded but not killed by the bird shot, they finished him off with a hunting knife! The group captured the two SKS rifles from the brigands and found a broken 250 round PKM belt in the BTR, so now they had ammo for the DP-28 , SVT-40 and 91/30 PU. But still no ammo for the Tokarev of PPSH.

Later they where occupying a shelled out apartment building when they spotted a URAL truck coming down the road. Several men where riding on it all where armed with "kalashnikovs" and had large beards and were wearing KLMK camouflage. They spotted the DP-28 and 91/30 emplacement up on the roof and drove behind another smaller building with the truck. To the PC's surprise they had a loud speaker and in Russian said to send out an unarmed man to parley or they would destroy the whole building...The PCs where nervous but sent out the Female again figuring you could catch more fly's with honey than vinegar. Of course everyone with working guns where covering her. And they sent out one man to the center of the open ground and the two conversed... They asked the PC's who's side they were on and the PC's said no ones...so the soldiers said they could keep there arms but should come out and talk. Turned out the Soldiers were Czech Special forces and had a ZPU-2 in the back of the truck! Its good that PC complied. Apparently they had been impersonating a Russian unit and killing Russian soldier once they realized it was a ruse. Anyway the driver of the Ural and the ZPU-2 gunner where both armed with CZ-26 Samopal SMG's and they told the PC's if they gave the them the 2 Russian SKS's then they could have the 2 VZ-26's and ammo. The PC's where very pleased now they had ammo for the PPSH, Tokarev and 2 Cz-26's. The rest of there arms where 7.62x54R.

Apparently the Czech soldier wanted the SKS rifles for DMR purposes. As the rest of them where armed with VZ-58 with folding stocks.

Sorry for the long story guess I was bored.

Brother in Arms

[smokewolf]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

Sorry for the long story guess I was bored.

Don't be. I'm bored at work too and this was a good read.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

Sorry for the long story guess I was bored.

Brother in Arms

Yeah psiing contests get that way. I enjoy 'war stories' from T2K campaigns.

Grae

[Haven]

I love reading them too.

As the 'house take down' plays out with SMGs i'll be sure to share with a wall of text.

[Graebarde]

One of the short-falls of a subgun over a battle-rifle or assault-rile for house clearing is the lack of penetration. I'm refering to walls. But that only applies if your concerned for what's behind the wall, such as a civilian scenario with cops and robbers. Nuff said on the subject though. Opinions are like ah, everyone has one.

Grae

[General Pain]

I personally like using smgs in T2K, they are cheap to produce and don't demand much training. So if u r going to arm 100 men in a bombed city I think I would choose smgs ,

When I look at certain posts in this thread I do not understand what even started this feud.....

grow up

or get the sand out of youre crack

[Targan]

Originally Posted by General Pain

When I look at certain posts in this thread I do not understand what even started this feud.....

grow up

or get the sand out of youre crack

But what are you really trying to say GP? Heh heh.

You really like to call it like you see it, don't you man?

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by Targan

But what are you really trying to say GP? Heh heh.

You really like to call it like you see it, don't you man?

someone once told me (or maybe it was me)

"To think before you talk, is the same as wiping your ass before you shit"

and once again this probably not directed at anyone......

reminds me of this one....

"When I die I want to go like my grandfather - silent in his sleep. Not like the screaming passengers in his car."