Recovering spent cartridges

[Mahatatain]

What rules to other GMs use for recovering spent cartridges?

I've always assumed that if you have time to look for your spent cartridges that it should be relatively easy to find them (depending on what kind of terrain your firing from). However I fired an AK-47 for the first time at the weekend and I was very surprised at how far the ejecting bullet casing flew and I've now realised that recovering spent cartridges isn't as easy as I first thought, particularly from an assault rifle.

What guidelines do people use?

[Rainbow Six]

Would it be feasable to attach some sort of canvas bag or similar to a weapon to try and catch the cartridge cases as they are ejected?

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Would it be feasable to attach some sort of canvas bag or similar to a weapon to try and catch the cartridge cases as they are ejected?

Brass catchers like you describe are bound to be common in T2k games but I'm not sure how practical they would be in real life and whether they would interfere with reloading a fresh mag.

My extremely limited experience of firing an AK-47 would suggest to me that the angle they were ejecting at means that a canvas bag wouldn't work, but I'm no expert.

[helbent4]

Andy,

Didn't T2K v1 have something about recovering spent brass counts as an action? It's something snipers would probably do if they have the opportunity.

Regardless, recovering spent brass has never seemed to be a priority in any game of T2K I've played or ran. Granted, that's a kind of meta-game way to look at it but in a way it's probably something that (over time) most units who are on the move won't find it worthwhile to worry about (even though brass should be worth something in trade). Units that are actually re-loading cartridges might be more diligent in policing up spent brass than others.

Tony

[B.T.]

I don't remember where it was, but I have seen a picture of austrian troops on erxercise 2 or 3 years ago. They really fitted some kind of small bag to their Steyr AUGs. Although the idea behind it was not polluting the environment, it seems to work with the AUG. If it works with it, why should it not work with other rifles?

If a party wants to collect the spent brass, I suggest the following:

1. You must have the time to search for the spent cartridges. If there is no time (enemies looking after you, or the party has to move on quickly), let the PCs grab a fistful of cartridges as an action.

2. I would suppose, that you will not find every spent cartridge (Unless you would really spent a lot of time with searching the ground underneath every bush in the area!). Therefore I assume, that 50% are lost, if you just pick up, what you find. If the party wants to spend some time after the firefight (Some minutes, depending on situation), let there still be a loss of 20 - 30%. One should also take in account, how the underground lools like: If the party did not move a lot and were firing from an ambush in a building, the picking up of cartridges would be a lot easier, compared to a firefight in some kind of wood.

If they were fighting in mud or swamp, don't let the spent cartridges be found

[Targan]

I agree with BT's post. I think a Scrounge skill check would be most appropriate (do they have the Scrounge skill in V2 and 2.2?). The level of success combined with the skill level should determine the amount of spent cases found (perhaps with a small randomised element as well). Also modifiers should be assigned for terrain/cover/weather conditions etc. So a character with high Scrounge skill who rolls a really high level of success should find 100% of his spent brass, possibly modified downwards by a dice roll and/or environmental modifiers.

[Legbreaker]

I'd say Observation (aka Recon in 1st ed) would be more applicable than scrounging. Scrounging is more about where to look in a general sense than specific details.

[pmulcahy11b]

I can't see someone stopping for a moment to pick up shells in the middle of a running firefight. When you're fighting from a fixed or semi-fixed position, you can police up the brass; otherwise, unless you want to do a range walk, it's probably just lost excepts for the last shots in the fight.

[HorseSoldier]

Brass would belong to whoever owned the battlefield at the end of the firefight or, barring that, the local populace.

Having spent more time than I care to remember trying to recover brass from various army ranges I can say that it's a serious chore to get 100% recovery with a large body of guys, flat and clear terrain in a limited area, and good illumination. Give people variable firing positions in a larger area and something as minor as mowed grass and it gets about exponentially harder. Add in weapons that sling brass like its going out of style like AKs, HK rifles, and such and it's all downhill from there.

Trying to police up the brass from, say, a squad on squad firefight in wooded terrain would be very time intensive -- PCs could do it, but I'd assume it takes a full four hour time period, and final brass picked up would still end up being something on par with, say, 60%+4d10 or something.

Brass catchers would work on most weapons though they might interfere with speedy reloading drills as someone else noted previously. On M16/M4 type weapons, you can rig a pretty easy brass catcher to clip into the carry handle. With bottom ejecting machineguns it would also be pretty easy, though on guns with disintegrating belts the belt itself would be another issue (and also something you'd want to retrieve). Anyway, I'd think most people would not accept a decrease in speed and handling on a rifle or light machinegun, but MGs on fixed mounts and in the sustained fire role would be fitted with brass catchers.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I'd say Observation (aka Recon in 1st ed) would be more applicable than scrounging. Scrounging is more about where to look in a general sense than specific details.

Leg,

Awww... why not use Scrounging? It seems to be a very under-utilised skill to me. While it seems simple, scrounging is actually pretty complicated and lends itself to more detailed RP than just an abstract roll.

Tony

[Legbreaker]

Scrounging is the ability to reason, to know where a desired item may have been left by somebody, or who to talk to to find out. It's understanding that homes in a certain region often have root cellars, or that the copper wire the mechanic needs might be salvaged from an old television or washing machine.

Observation/recon is more about the here and now, reading the ground, seeing the bushes moving and understanding there may be a person or animal there. Noticing small details and having a general and ongoing awareness of the surroundings.

[ex3313]

the brass you police up may not be usable for reloaded as soviet ammo used steel cases

[Mahatatain]

Thanks for all the comments.

Originally Posted by ex3313

the brass you police up may not be usable for reloaded as soviet ammo used steel cases

This is very interesting. Please can you explain why that is the case? (sorry for my ignorance)

[HorseSoldier]

You have to resize brass to bring it precisely back into spec. Steel is much harder to manipulate, though my understanding is that it can be done on an industrial level even if it is problematic for a small time handloader. I'd guess steel cases are traded to places like Krakow rather than reused locally.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Scrounging is the ability to reason, to know where a desired item may have been left by somebody, or who to talk to to find out. It's understanding that homes in a certain region often have root cellars, or that the copper wire the mechanic needs might be salvaged from an old television or washing machine.

Observation/recon is more about the here and now, reading the ground, seeing the bushes moving and understanding there may be a person or animal there. Noticing small details and having a general and ongoing awareness of the surroundings.

Leg,

Well sure, this is why Scrounging is rarely (if ever) used as a skill, because it's so abstract and therefore hard to put into play.

You may as well just do away with Scrounging and have people simply RP it out with INT or EDU to point them in the right direction, Persuasion to talk to people about where to find or buy stuff, Observation to see what's lying around them, and maybe Mechanics or whatever to actually salvage parts.

Picking up brass is literally Scrounging, it's hard to find a more classic example. More to the point, Scrounging should incorporate Observation and all those other elements, merely specialised towards recovery.

So I'd allow it. You might not, but I will learn to eventually contain my crushing disappointment. Some day.

As for Andy's original question, there are Kalashnikov-style brass catchers available:



Looks like it wouldn't interfere too much with mag changes as that's done with the left hand and the catcher is mounted off the right hand of the receiver. It might be a problem with operating the cocking handle, as that's mounted off the bolt itself which in turn is under the catcher? (AR-15 style weapons don't have this specific problem.)

http://www.thecountryshed.com/brass_catchers.htm


This is a soft nylon one that can fit any side-ejection rifle and is secured via a loop around the barrel or receiver:



http://www.tacticalaccessories.com/p...?id_product=71

I guess the idea is that if you care about recovering your brass, you are probably not going to be dumping mags on rock-and-roll and therefore not going to be bothered by adding a few extra seconds to your mag changes!

Tony

[pmulcahy11b]

You literally couldn't charge that weapon without removing the brass catcher.

[HorseSoldier]

Indeed. And once the catcher starts getting full, it's going to change how the weapons balances and handles. I see it as a real hard sell for anyone trained to run a gun well, or untrained troops who have much latitude on their kit.

[pmulcahy11b]

It should be noted that many armored vehicles are also designed to eject spent casings outside of the vehicle (this is especially true of autocannon-armed vehicles and armored gun systems). This applies more to large-caliber casings than small arms casings (which are often caught in brass catchers inside of armored vehicles), but is worth noting.

[WallShadow]

It's odd that no one's mentioned use of a metal detector (landmine or hobby version) to scan the ground for brass.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

It's odd that no one's mentioned use of a metal detector (landmine or hobby version) to scan the ground for brass.

Do those detect non-magnetic metals? I'll admit I don't know much about those.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Do those detect non-magnetic metals? I'll admit I don't know much about those.

"3. What types of things will a metal detector help me find?

All metallic objects. Example: gold, silver, iron, nickel, copper, brass, aluminum, tin, lead, bronze. Metal detectors will not detect nonmetal items such as gemstones, diamonds, pearls, bone, paper, or stone figures."

http://whiteselectronics.com/info/faqs.html

Paul, looks like they will detect brass, and can discriminate between different kinds of metals.

Tony

[Trooper]

http://www.classicsportcompany.com/p...ails.php?p=390

Price:$ 30 (R/-) (Jenny is not included.)

[Targan]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Paul, looks like they will detect brass, and can discriminate between different kinds of metals.

Its true. I've used metal detectors for gold prospecting and different metals cause a different tone from some detectors. With experience you will have some idea what sort of metal you've found and the quantity/depth from the surface.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Trooper

http://www.classicsportcompany.com/p...ails.php?p=390

Price:$ 30 (R/-) (Jenny is not included.)

That's OK, I prefer brunettes.

[Fusilier]

On range cleanup we would just use brass magnets and sweep the firing mounds.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

On range cleanup we would just use brass magnets and sweep the firing mounds.

Oh, the wonders they're passing out these days...

[HorseSoldier]

I've spent many an afternoon dreaming about a brass magnet (usually while walking back and forth looking for that 10% or so that never gets picked up).

Though in the police academy we had a push-roller deal that picked up brass on the indoor range really well.

[atiff]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

On range cleanup we would just use brass magnets and sweep the firing mounds.

Do you mean those girls who like men in uniform, but only if they are senior officers?

[leonpoi]

nice