British Army Equipment in the Later Twilight War

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by LBraden

Also, I noticed 'Thanksgiving day massacre' mentioned, due to my bad memory, is that when the nuclear exchange happened in T2K?

Lee,

I think that's from The Morrow Project, although it could be a term from Twilight 2000, now I think of it. It's hard not to see TMP references in many other post-apoc RPGs!

Tony

[dude_uk]

Originally Posted by LBraden

Also, I noticed 'Thanksgiving day massacre' mentioned, due to my bad memory, is that when the nuclear exchange happened in T2K?

Yeah, its not actually called as that in canon. But it was referenced in a document by someone on these forums. The name just seemed to fit and it stuck.

From the Twilight 200 timeline-

27 November: Soviets send a surgical strike of nuclear weapons to knock the Americans out of the war; in Florida, they target Mayport Naval Station, Jacksonville; MacDill AFB in Tampa; Eglin AFB near Pensecola; and the Satellite Recon Launch Facility at Cape Kennedy. A fifth attack on Homestead AFB south of Miami fails due to EMP interference. EMP blasts knock out all operating radio and television channels, and the power grid and power stations. Washington DC is hit by nukes from a Russian sub in the Atlantic. President John Tanner is killed by an accident during takeoff of the NEACP aircraft. VP Pemberton, at the White House, declares a state of war shortly before Washington DC is hit. NORAD HQ at Cheyenne Mountain takes a direct hit; the Pentagon and SAC HQ at Offut AFB, Nebraska, are destroyed.

[Legbreaker]

The Thanksgiving Day Massacre (TDM) is a term from T2K, however it's rather misleading in my opinion.
The first actual strategic strikes against continental USA occured the day after Thanksgiving, which is a purely American holiday and means next to nothing to anyone anywhere else in the world.
Note however that the first use of nukes was nearly six months earlier in June or July 1997 (can't remember exactly which but I think it was the 7th day of the month).
Note also that the TDM event was just the beginning of continental US strikes which continued for some time (how long isn't specified) and there was a second, weaker (and presumably shorter) exchange a few months later in 1998.

It is actually refered to as this in canon, where exactly I can't recall but I think it's in Howling Wilderness.

[Rainbow Six]

Dude_UK, thanks for the feedback...much appreciated...

[dude_uk]

BTW I can just see the DMS Boots ending up with Trotters International Trading Co.

"But dell what we going to do with 150,000 sets of boots?!"


Got some numbers for you to crunch on Tanks and APC numbers. Other vehicles I leave to you for the time being, good luck on counting those bedfords! what was the Book on British vehicles you were waiting for?

Main battle tanks
Challenger 2 Estimate numbers 297 (4 regiments of 50 tanks + 1 Training regiment)
In our timeline Challenger 2 was ordered in 1991. Just after the end of the cold war with an initial order of 127 Tanks and a total order of 386. Reflecting the fact the British army maintained only one division in a unified Germany. In the twilight 2000 timeline it is possible that the order would have been larger or that the challenger 2 would have been run alongside challenger 1.
This would been the tank that Vickers defence systems would have been making when war breaks out, how many that Vickers can crank out in Newcastle and Leeds after an emergency order is placed is entirely up to up you. There would be about a divisions worth in Germany in 1995.

Challenger 1 Numbers 372 (7 regiments+ 2 training regiments)

The challenger 1 was in 1979 poised to replace the Chieftain on a one for one basis. Initial orders were completed in 1985, however in 1987 the Regular NATO tank competition “Canadian Army Trophy� was held. The British team fared badly owing to the team, who were unable to practice and unused to the tank, the tanks somewhat rudimentary fire and control system also was to blame. The British team was humiliated by their West German and US rivals. The Ministry of defence decided on that the selection of a new tank was needed. The challenger 1 however proved itself in the gulf war, losing not a single tank to enemy action and dominating their Iraqi Opponents.
The challenger would have been the initial workhorse of the British army in 1997, comprising two of the three armoured divisions. However as time goes on, the challenger 1 would have been seen less and less due to being replaced by either challenger 2 or Chieftain. Initially as tanks are destroyed or require maintenance.

Chieftain Numbers between 850 and 1200 (24 regiments)

In our timeline Chieftain was sold off in massive quantities come 1995. But In the twilight 2000 the chieftain would almost certainly have been needed to equip the newly formed British 2nd Corps and its comprising divisions. This is the tank that would be most common in the United Kingdom Land forces (The command that was responsible for British internal defence) should any armour truly survive the nuclear exchange. One thing you are looking at is the formation of perhaps new regiments for this job.


APC’s/ AFV’s

Warrior MCV-80 1,048 (18 regiments)

The warrior was much like the challenger, designed to replace the Fv-432 APC on a one for one basis in British Army of the Rhine’s armoured Infantry Battalions. Britain’s 1st Corps would have had this as the main transport for armoured infantry at the start of hostilities. The AFV was still being manufactured for export for the army of Kuwait at the start of the war, so replacements would have been possible to manufacture. Once again the amount produced for war replacements will be up to you.

Fv-432 APC (2,228)

Produced in vast amounts for a variety of roles from personal protection to ambulances in the 1960’s, the FV-432 would have been a very common sight amongst British forces during the war. Whilst only used in BR 1 corps in non-APC role, it would have been needed to equip British 2nd corps. As casualties mounted it would have been seen more action. It would have been fairly common site in the United Kingdom.

Saxon APC (320-500)

Ordered in the 1980’s for the 2nd Infantry division, the Saxon was designed as very much a ‘battle taxi' designed to get 2nd Infantry Division into North West Germany very quickly. With ample amounts of FV432 and Warrior, The Newly renamed 2nd Armoured Division would have left the UK equipped with FV432 and its Saxons would have found its new home with internal security duties. It would have been unsuitable for it to be used in the armoured infantry role in the rolling plains of eastern Europe to the minimal amount of protection..

[pmulcahy11b]

I used Corcoran jump boots with treads on them in the field -- better ankle support.

[Ironside]

Sorry I haven't done any more with this, but am snowed under with RL stuff, and now snowed under by real snow lol.

@dude uk I like the vehicle stuff you have posted, I agree that the Chieftain would be the most likely British armour to survive.

The book was 'British Army Transport & Logistics', interesting, but not as helpful as I had hoped.

[Rainbow Six]

On the subject of books, can anyone recommend any on the Territorial Army pre Options for Change, in particular anything that details TA units' wartime assignments (which ones went to BAOR, which were planned to stay in the UK, etc)? I've had a quick look on amazon and waterstones websites and there seem to be a few titles available, but they're all a bit pricey and I don't want to spend thirty quid on something that's not going to cover what I'm after.

Cheers

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Ironside

@dude uk I like the vehicle stuff you have posted, I agree that the Chieftain would be the most likely British armour to survive.

Perhaps with some of them modified with the Stillbrew modifications?

[waiting4something]

I got a question. Why does Ireland use a different rifle then the rest of the UK? I mean Ireland is still part of the UK, so why don't they all use the same stuff? If Twilight 2000 would have happened would they still be using L1A1's instead of the the AUG? Would they go with the British flow and use a L85? Or would they get the AUG anyway? What's the deal?

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I got a question. Why does Ireland use a different rifle then the rest of the UK? I mean Ireland is still part of the UK...

It's not a part of the UK. The Republic of Ireland is a sovereign nation.

[waiting4something]

Whoah! Yeah, I guess they have been since 1922 or something like that. But are they really seperate or is that like one of those feel good titles to make people happy. Like if the UK says jump, does Ireland ask how high? Most the maps of the UK I saw always had Ireland in them and not until I looked it up did they have Ireland in a seperate color scheme.

I mean Ireland has to still have a super close relationship still. And even if Ireland isn't down with the crown, I can't see them saying they are gonna sit back and not fight along with their union jack brothers when the UK wants them to.

Sure, this was embarassing to admit I never knew this, but when I looked this up I found out I was not alone. It's no reason to get insulted, Ireland is just a low key country. When I think of Ireland I think of happy people drinking and fighting with each other. The important lesson here is Ireland is not part of the Uk.

[Legbreaker]

Ireland is most definitely NOT part of the UK although they are a part of the Commonwealth (as are such independant nations as New Zealand, Australia, India and South Africa).
Northern Ireland on the other hand IS part of the UK, although they have been seeking independance for, well, forever....

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Ireland is most definitely NOT part of the UK although they are a part of the Commonwealth (as are such independant nations as New Zealand, Australia, India and South Africa).

No that isn't correct either...

The Republic of Ireland hasn't been a member of the Commonwealth for over half a decade.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Sure, this was embarassing to admit I never knew this, but when I looked this up I found out I was not alone. It's no reason to get insulted, Ireland is just a low key country. When I think of Ireland I think of happy people drinking and fighting with each other. The important lesson here is Ireland is not part of the Uk.

Waiting4Something,

As Fusilier is Canadian I'm confident he's probably not personally insulted or upset in the least when it comes to Ireland. In fact, no one seems out of sorts, so don't sweat it.

The Republic of Ireland was created by an act of armed rebellion, not some kind of slow devolution from the UK or other political process. A useful analogue might be that of the USA and the UK after the American Revolution. They share many ties but are no longer the same country.

They are not a client state of the UK nor are they politically or socially dominated by them in the same way that, say, Moldova is dominated by Russia. Ireland does have strong economic ties with the UK,as well as social ones. In the 90's, Ireland enjoyed an incredible economic boom where there the Irish became some of the most wealthy per capita in the world. It was called the "Celtic Tiger", although that bubble did burst in the recent banking cataclysm. At the time of the war Ireland was still part of the Commonwealth so that is relevant to the T2K timeline.

Northern Ireland, on the other hand, is still very much part of the UK in the same way that Scotland, Wales and England are, although it has more extensive home rule due to decades of political turmoil. If you are thinking of a part of Ireland that is dominated by the UK (part of the same national structure) you are probably thinking of Northern Ireland.

Tony

[Fusilier]

I wasn't at all.

[Legbreaker]

I'm not Irish so what I'm saying might not be completely accurate, however from what I can see, Ireland was a member of the Commonwealth up until April 1949.
There appears to be a few exceptions and so forth regarding this status though with Ireland still being able to participate in the Commonwealth Games and it's citizens born prior to 1949 able to claim British citizenship. There's a few other things as well that differentiate Ireland from every other non-commonwealth country and there appears to be a move towards Ireland rejoining the Commonwealth.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker;28012from

what I can see, Ireland was a member of the Commonwealth up until April 1949.

Which is why I said over half a decade.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker;28012from

There appears to be a few exceptions and so forth regarding this status though with Ireland still being able to participate in the Commonwealth Games and it's citizens born prior to 1949 able to claim British citizenship. There's a few other things as well that differentiate Ireland from every other non-commonwealth country and there appears to be a move towards Ireland rejoining the Commonwealth.

Those exceptions aren't explicit to only Ireland. A few other states have had the same inclusions but it doesn't make them members or half members or anything like that.

[Legbreaker]

From what I read, only Mozambique has similar status with the Commonwealth as Ireland. Of course that's taken from wiki, so who knows how accurate it is.

[Tegyrius]

While I was poking at 1st Armoured for the Czech book, I noticed that the Royal Engineers have received or are about to take delivery on rather a lot of new heavy equipment (Trojan, Titan, Terrier). How much of that stuff was in development back in the '90s and plausibly could have been rushed to production?

- C.

[Legbreaker]

You'd have to say it was at least in development in the mid 90's for it to make the late 1997 cut off for new technology. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible to introduce anything new after the nukes except on a prototype and handmade basis.

[pmulcahy11b]

1st Armored? Is this a site I should know about?

[Tegyrius]

No specific site, Paul. I was just making a general reference to the research I did on 1st Armoured Division.

Leg - yeah, I just don't know which of those vehicles, if any, started development that early. I know the REME had CARRVs during Operation Telic, so I suspect it's possible at least a few prototypes would have been around in time for the T2k timeline.
- C.

[Legbreaker]

Hmm, with the first production hull of the Terrier only entering production on the 27th of January 2010, I'd say there's absolutely no chance of it, or the other two vehicles even being conceived in the T2K timeline. I tend to estimate that even in wartime you're looking at a minimum of 18 months from design to the first production models. Therefore these particular vehicle would almost need to be on the drawing board even before hostilities commenced and the requirement for them became known.
Of course that's just three vehicle types - you'd have to look at each one individually to work out if it's a possibility (and I think Paul's probably done 95% of that legwork already).

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Hmm, with the first production hull of the Terrier only entering production on the 27th of January 2010, I'd say there's absolutely no chance of it, or the other two vehicles even being conceived in the T2K timeline. I tend to estimate that even in wartime you're looking at a minimum of 18 months from design to the first production models. Therefore these particular vehicle would almost need to be on the drawing board even before hostilities commenced and the requirement for them became known.

Terrier was admittedly the fringe case. It looks like Titan and Trojan weren't contracted until after the turn of the millennium, so all three are out. Pity; I have a soft spot for CEVs and ARVs.

- C.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Pity; I have a soft spot for CEVs and ARVs.

You and me both. Probably comes from having to do those jobs by hand back when I was an assault pioneer....

[James Langham]

Going back to the small arms, the M16 was also issued to troops undergoing jungle training in the 1980s in Belize.

One reason I was always told that the cadet units were issued the L98A1 was that a semi-auto version was developed but someone then pointed out the ease to convert to full auto (only). This seems to have been forgotten on the A2 version (where the idea still works). The L86A1 (LSW) was however issued. As an interesting aside the cadet iron sight was actually better than the army's! It was adjustable from 100-500m in 100m increments whilst the army's was set to 300 only (both also had an alternative larger aperture).

The Sea Cadet Corps and Air Training Corps STILL have No4 rifles (.303) in drill purpose versions as seen on Remembrance Day parade every year. I'm not sure if they hold any live fire versions.

[Tackleberry]

First post on here so hi all. I last played TW2000 years ago, but have always wanted to get back into it.

Having carried the L1A1 around various Airbases in Germany in the 80's and then had to use the L85 in both the A1 and A2 guises i have a little info on them. The L1A1 was a beast and was difficult for an average shot to accurately hit at 300m. The L85 is much more accurate, but the kinetic energy of the SS109 5.56x45 round is so much less than the 7.62x51, so do you want to hit him and wound him repeatedly, or risk the misses but put him down with 1 shot?

The Air and Sea cadets both still use the No8 .22 single shot bolt action rifle, and will for a while yet.
All 3 cadet services use the L98A2 and the L81A1 7.62x51 target rifle.

The UK got rid of all of its L1A1's in the early to mid 90's to Africa, with only a couple of hundred still lying around.

The UK would have benefitted from the Small arms factory at Radway Green, Alsager surviving the strikes, so they would have enough ammo in the UK anyway.

[Legbreaker]

I can't speak for the L85, but I never had a problem consistantly posting high scores with the L1A1 at 300+ metres.
And I was quite small at the time (about 65kgs).

Provided the training is there, anyone should be able to consistantly hit at 2-300 metres with most weapons. If a soldier can't manage that, then they have no business being on the battlefield.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I can't speak for the L85, but I never had a problem consistantly posting high scores with the L1A1 at 300+ metres.
And I was quite small at the time (about 65kgs).

Me too. I was hitting man-sized targets consistently on the range at 600m with the SLR. Not 100% accuracy or head shots every time, sure, but regular centre-of-seen-mass hits at 600m weren't all that difficult. Rain or shine, still air or gusts, 7.62 maintained good accuracy in all conditions. I'd shoot 7.62 over 5.56 any day.