Mongoose Publishing and Twilight 2000

[pmulcahy11b]

The problem with T2K as an MMO is that it would inevitably focus on the firefights -- and those are just a small amount of any proper T2K game. The same thing happened with the T2K computer game.

[LBraden]

Dare I say it, but I have to agree to that, too many games now are just "skip, skip, skip, SHOOT, duck, shoot, call in artillery, skip, skip, skip, shoot, artillery strike here, shoot, skip - credits"

I have to say that I lost all hope in games like that years ago, yet I have to admit that COD 4 Modern Warfare storyline, and the whole USMC surviving to see the nuclear fallout just before dieing, was one HELL of a good bit of gaming.

Now, lets look at Star Trek Online, a nice MMO that has been squeezed to "tie up" a lot of idionims to the older Trek series (seriously, the amount of "hang on, that's from TOS", is silly) has gotten to the point of just skipping everything and shooting, only since they got some of the guys who made Fallout 1 and 2 involved, it has gotten more "read the story" and more "diplomatic approach" than the old "go here, blow this up, shoot this guy, come home" that most "gamers" want today.

Hell, I prefer games with good stories and gameplay, but I NEVER like it when they sacrifice the story for just out and out shooting fest.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Eddie

I'd also be willing to wager that most purchasers are like my two teenage sons...skipping the story to get to the shooting or bypassing it altogether with the multiplayer, online combat.

Eddie,

Well sure, like I said there's not necessarily a way to piggy-back off COD:BO's success due to the divergence of that segment of the market from ours. That would be too much to hope for.

Although, even if only 1% or less of the people who bought COD:BO (7 million as of the 10th of November) care about or at least paid attention to the Cold War background then that's hundreds of thousands of gamers right there, along with the 99% for whom it wasn't a turn-off right there. So hey, maybe some of those players are also RPgamers like us, who knows?

Again, that's not my point. (That is, I'm not seriously proposing that there will be any appreciable cross-over; the preceding was more of a thought-experiment than a serious proposition.)

My point is that it's somehow become an article of faith that the Cold War is market poison for gaming. I don't see why that's the case, although I admit I don't have any particular insight into our own slice of the hobby. I can only extrapolate from the world at large, and I just don't believe that most RPgamers are so fundamentally different from other gamers that there's no useful correlations to be drawn!

Personally, getting back to the topic at hand, if Mongoose or someone else gets the T2K licence and changes everything that would be fine, it's an exploration of the game and with tongue-in-cheek I agree that sometimes you have to burn down the ville in order to save it. That said, there's no reason that some kind of sourcebook on the original Cold War background still couldn't be done.

Now that we're on-topic, allow me to get off topic and ask how your interaction with Law went? We generally got along well most of the time in the one game we were in, although we had our differences. PM me if you don't feel like clogging up the thread more.

Tony

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Although, even if only 1% or less of the people who bought COD:BO (7 million as of the 10th of November) care about or at least paid attention to the Cold War background then that's hundreds of thousands of gamers right there,

Actually, that's 70,000 at 1%.

So hey, maybe some of those players are also RPgamers like us, who knows?

Undoubtedly some of them are RPers as well. That is not my point...

Again, that's not my point. (That is, I'm not seriously proposing that there will be any appreciable cross-over; the preceding was more of a thought-experiment than a serious proposition.)

And my point is that it's like comparing oranges to orange juice. They're made out of the same stuff (story) but you choose one because you want to chew the meat, and the other because you want the vitamins and refreshment quickly.

My point is that it's somehow become an article of faith that the Cold War is market poison for gaming.

I never said it was poison, just not financially smart to choose that. There is a smaller and smaller percentage of us that "haven't grown up yet" that remember the Cold War, much less care about it. A game company can appeal to a much larger client base and gain some emotional investment by setting it in a time period that is more contemporary or widespread. You can't blame a company for using that logic to try and make money.

and I don't see why that's the case, although I admit I don't have any particular insight into our own slice of the hobby. I can only extrapolate from the world at large, and I just don't believe that most RPgamers are so fundamentally different from other gamers that there's no useful correlations to be drawn!

Useful correlations. Exactly my point. In lieu of hard statistics, of which I'm almost positive none exist, look at the majority of gamers out there and take admittedly-anecdotal evidence of what they do. Most people skip the story in video games for the instant visual and auditory pleasure and the emotional pleasure of talking smack to your buddies about how you killed them with a knife while they were wielding an M134 minigun in both hands with an invisible-cloaking-antigravity-generator.

YMMV, but mine has been pretty much as written here.

[Chris]

I meant to get back to the thread earlier, but busy, busy weekend.

From what Mongoose wrote, 2300AD and Twilight would be sourcebooks for their new Traveller system. I haven't even seen a copy of the new Trav locally. Has anyone read it and do you think the system is a good take for Twilight?

Thanks,
Chris

[LBraden]

There was a PC game about 10 yrs ago now, that had an interesting comment in the Manual, first line went

"Thank you for being one of the 10% of people who buy our game and read the manual, and not be like the other 90% who clog up our forums asking for advice that we give here"

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Chris

I meant to get back to the thread earlier, but busy, busy weekend.

From what Mongoose wrote, 2300AD and Twilight would be sourcebooks for their new Traveller system. I haven't even seen a copy of the new Trav locally. Has anyone read it and do you think the system is a good take for Twilight?

I have it and I've read it, but I haven't done a lot of playing with it.

It's very similar to Classic Traveller:
- nearly all die rolls are 2d6, beat a 7 with modifiers, of course.
- semi-random lifepath character generation. That is, you pick a career and roll to see how you do, and what skills and goodies you pick up. With very few adjustments, this could be made to fit the T2k background.

I don't feel confident to comment on how the combat works, the few times I tried playing with it, the GM was house-ruling a lot of it. Reading through it, it seemed to cover a lot of similar ground. It's supposed to be somewhat deadly, so that's somewhat a plus in T2k.

I'm intrigued by the concept, and wouldn't mind messing with it, if I had a group. To be honest, the 2300AD setting applied to this ruleset appeals to me more than T2k.

[Legbreaker]

Hmmm, I'm not too keen on the 2D6 mechanics. Not really enough variation for my liking.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Eddie

Actually, that's 70,000 at 1%.

Eddie,

Ha, yep, MATH FAIL!

Still, tens of thousands in one day alone are nothing to sneeze at. That's taking the number at 1%, but it's without a doubt much higher. Reviewers have given their thumb's up to the Cold War campaign, which tends to prove my point that the Cold War scenario turns people off or isn't a significant drag on sales or interest.

Two things which are different can still be enough to draw useful comparisons, which is sometimes all we can do in our imperfect world. (You can also "slice the pie" narrow enough to exclude any comparison you don't agree with, to mangle a business metaphor to suit my purposes.) Gamers are gamers, even if there is no cross-over. The larger game world seems to disagree with you that a background that makes use of the Cold War is not financially smart, and there it is.

On the topic of Mongoose Traveller, I've bought it and had a look, it's basically a cleaned-up version of Classic Traveller without being on steroids (MegaTraveller). I'm in agreement that the rules (especially combat) don't seem crunchy enough to do T2K justice, but I don't have access to Mercenary at this time. There could also be a lot more chrome added in the sourcebook, and at least you're not stuck in one career!

Tony

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Still, tens of thousands in one day alone are nothing to sneeze at. That's taking the number at 1%, but it's without a doubt much higher. Reviewers have given their thumb's up to the Cold War campaign, which tends to prove my point that the Cold War scenario turns people off or isn't a significant drag on sales or interest.

I haven't read any reviews, but I work around 18-42 year old military men every day. The office talk hasn't been that great about COD:BO. I'm running into the "don't waste your money" line quite frequently. It may or may not, but like I said, I haven't seen any hard statistics one way or the other.

I know that personally, I don't listen to formal reviewers or critics nine times out of ten. My tastes are usually pretty diametrically opposed to the mainstream. I'll go for informal reviewers on the web and forums more times than not. I have no interest in COD:BO though, so I haven't put forth the effort for it.

Two things which are different can still be enough to draw useful comparisons, which is sometimes all we can do in our imperfect world.

I didn't say apples to oranges. I said oranges to orange juice. Two versions of the same fruit. I used it as an analogy for pen and paper communal storytelling to individual video gaming storytelling.

Gamers are gamers, and at least there is cross-over.

Not necessarily. The only video games I play are UFO: Extraterrestrials because X-Com was the greatest game I ever played and Command and Conquer.

The larger game world seems to disagree with you that a background that makes use of the Cold War is not financially smart, and there it is.

This is a misleading statement. Of the seven million people you quoted that bought the game, how many of them paid attention to the story vice how many skipped the story parts to get to the shooting? Then we delve into the ones who paid attention to the story, how many cared? How many knew what the Cold War was? I'd wager the kids in the US public education system have no clue that the Iron Curtain wasn't a cover band of Iron Maiden. Because remember, video games aren't given the same social stigma that D&D and other role-playing games are; jocks, band geeks, gamer nerds, alpha male boneheads, O. G. gangsta rap stars, and 45-year-old virgins all talk about and play video games to be cool. You don't get the same response when you talk about Magic Missiles or your latest dungeon crawl in most social circles.

We can agree to disagree, I'm sure.

Tony[/QUOTE]

[Raellus]

I think it might be fun to create T2K characters with the Mongoose Traveller system. On the other hand, if you're shooting for a particular type of character, it might be very frustrating. In particular, it might be a lot harder to roll up SF-type characters. IMHO, that might not be such a bad thing.

I don't think the Traveller combat system is going to work very well for T2K.

I wish there could be a hybrid- The original T2K timeline (v1.0, of course); the T2013 Relfex combat system (with some slight mods), and the Traveller char-gen system.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Eddie

This is a misleading statement.

We can agree to disagree, I'm sure.

Eddie,

As a point of fact, we may be coming from different points of view when it comes to education, as I can only say what I know locally (Vancouver BC). I've run post-apoc RPGs that use a Cold War background (WWIII involving the Soviet Union; in this case, The Morrow Project). The younger players (who are also not hardcore gamers) in their teens and twenties had learned about it school and were interested in the same way presumably we were about historical conflicts and periods we didn't live through, either. I mean, I was never around for WWII nor to any great extent the American-Vietnamese war but that didn't compromise my enjoyment RPGs and wargames based on these themes!

Agreed, if we don't like it, we can always draw the line to exclude any fact or comparison that doesn't fit our preferences. At this point, I think we're certainly agreeing to disagree.


Tony

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I wish there could be a hybrid- The original T2K timeline (v1.0, of course); the T2013 Relfex combat system (with some slight mods), and the Traveller char-gen system.

Rae,

You and me both, obviously.

I'll have a look at M:T Mercenary when I can, see if the character generation allows for more flexibility. Presumably any T2K sourcebooks might add detail as well. A 2d6-based system seems to conform to a gaming industry belief that simplicity and ease of play are paramount, a view that has a lot to recommend it even if I don't personally agree.

Tony

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by helbent4

As a point of fact, we may be coming from different points of view when it comes to education, as I can only say what I know locally (Vancouver BC).

I've had more than my share of spats with people like Leg and others on here for slights or perceived slights to my country, and God knows I'm proud to be an American; but I absolutely despise our public education system. I was lucky and overcame the hurdle, but since my three kids got into school, I've been nothing but disappointed. I know Webstral is a teacher, and I hope he does his best to fight the system, but I firmly believe it's broken in this nation. I give kudos to nations that have broken the code and managed to actually educate their people.

I've run post-apoc RPGs that use a Cold War background (WWIII involving the Soviet Union; in this case, The Morrow Project).

Morrow is kind of a special case though. Just the premise of cryogenic stasis in the boltholes lends a certain fantastical aspect to it that appeals across a broad range. Big fan of Morrow here...

The younger players (who are also not hardcore gamers) in their teens and twenties had learned about it school and were interested in the same way presumably we were about historical conflicts and periods we didn't live through, either. I mean, I was never around for WWII nor to any great extent the American-Vietnamese war but that didn't compromise my enjoyment RPGs and wargames on these themes!

Please bear in mind that this has progressed past "I'm proving my point, I'm countering your point" and has gone into simple conversation that presumably could move to PM and no interest. However, the fact that we're discussing the post-apoc/Cold War/gaming industry, I feel warrants staying open in this thread.

That said, they did turn me off from many of those games. Granted, some GMs really ran great games, but being locked into historical certainties of knowing what really happened or what was going to happen if the game didn't diverge from reality really irked me. That's part of why I like futuristic/post-apoc games so much, I think. It's not written and there isn't a historical fact-check book to bounce my adventures off of. I've never been accused of following the mainstream in any of my hobbies though...

[Snake Eyes]

I didn't even know CoD: Black Ops was set in the Cold War until I actually installed it and started playing through the first single-player scenario. I actually found it kind of confusing and thought it might be some trippy time-travel/flashback hoax, like an old episode of Mission:Impossible.

What that "proves" to me is not so much that there is some huge untapped market for Cold War era pen & paper tabletop roleplaying games as it does that they could have set the latest game in the CoD franchise during the War of 1812 and it still would have sold a million copies. I don't think any other causal linkage has been established.

I really do think that if the part of the RPG industry can be called mainstream as a whole thought there was some unfilled cold-war-gone-hot-whoops-gritty-simulationist-apocalypse niche to be exploited they'd be filling it.

With d20.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Eddie

I've had more than my share of spats with people like Leg and others on here for slights or perceived slights to my country, and God knows I'm proud to be an American.

All water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned. As for you being an American, well we all have our crosses to bear*...

* If anyone reads that as other than tongue in cheek, then they seriously need to grow a sense of humour!

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

I have it and I've read it, but I haven't done a lot of playing with it.

It's very similar to Classic Traveller:
- nearly all die rolls are 2d6, beat a 7 with modifiers, of course.
- semi-random lifepath character generation. That is, you pick a career and roll to see how you do, and what skills and goodies you pick up. With very few adjustments, this could be made to fit the T2k background.

I knew they were trying for the "Classic" feel, but it sounds like I should just dig out my little black books again instead of looking at the core. That is if (I mean when, honest) they actually get it out in 2011 or so.

I'm going to cross my fingers on this.

Did they keep the hard-core survival role in each term? I remember going seven terms in the scouts, getting a mandatory re-enlistment, and dieing in the eighth.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Eddie

I've had more than my share of spats with people like Leg and others on here for slights or perceived slights to my country, and God knows I'm proud to be an American; but I absolutely despise our public education system. I was lucky and overcame the hurdle, but since my three kids got into school, I've been nothing but disappointed. I know Webstral is a teacher, and I hope he does his best to fight the system, but I firmly believe it's broken in this nation. I give kudos to nations that have broken the code and managed to actually educate their people.

Eddie,

I wish to make clear, I can't speak for the Canadian educational system in general, and for all I know the players in my group may be a statistical blip!

As for the comparison between T2K and TMP, if I may quote Reagan, "there you go again!" (I don't mean that as a slam, but more in the sense that it's not often I can quote Ronald Reagan and I feel I must do so when relevant... I MUST!). I somewhat agree with your point about the fantastical elements, but as my campaign was based on Final Watch the Cold War-esque elements were in full force.

Hey, a "classic" T2K background isn't going to attract everyone. V2+ seemed to get around this problem of historicity (that is, how it's placed within the stream of history) by making it counterfactual. This maintains the existential horror of the Cold War by making the setting part of an alternative timeline. To some players, the knowledge that the Cold War is over might impair their suspension of disbelief, but then re-imagining a global conventional/nuclear war (a classic Cold War trope) is also difficult for some people to credit, not to mention introducing a generic nature to the background.

I'm reminded of a friend who could never get into Call of Cthulhu. Having read Lovecraft, his knowledge of the bigger picture (humanity was essentially doomed) meant he couldn't really enjoy any adventure because it was ultimately hopeless. While probably true within the context of the Cthulhu Mythos, the key to enjoyment would seem to be to "forget" the overall historical/global picture and concentrate on what your character can accomplish, within the bounds of the scenario.

I guess the elephant in the room in this discussion is there was an RPG that tried to update T2K to something more modern. While it succeeded on some levels I sincerely hope any additional kicks at that can (by Mongoose or anyone) will do a lot better.

Tony

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

I really do think that if the part of the RPG industry can be called mainstream as a whole thought there was some unfilled cold-war-gone-hot-whoops-gritty-simulationist-apocalypse niche to be exploited they'd be filling it.

With d20.

Snake Eyes,

Hey, the Cold War background didn't make you pitch it across the room, did it? That's presumably the same for anyone that played the single-player campaign.

I fully admit that I'm setting the bar as low as I can get away with. I'll take a "lack of disgust" as proof-positive!

As recent history has conclusively proven, the invisible hand of the market isn't perfect! Tastes can change over time; themes can get played out, what are once considered narrow niches can become widely popular (in fact, this can be cyclical). If professional game designers and the individuals who run the companies that make RPGs sincerely believe something isn't profitable they simply won't waste what little time or resources they have in exploring blind avenues. (I don't mean to imply there's some kind of evil cartel or conspiracy to suppress Cold War games, merely that if no one tries then we'll never know.)

In fact, sometimes the players themselves don't know what they want. SPI almost produced historical wargames because of the feedback from their players indicated what they wanted, and nothing more. Someone faked or massaged player feedback (which was solicited on a regular basis) to get the green light for the "Star Force: Alpha Centauri" wargame and it turned out to be wildly successful and basically ushered in hard science fiction wargaming.

That said, there are recent RPGs that make use of Cold War themed games out there (GURPS: SEALs in Vietnam, the RPGs "Cold City" and "Hot War" to name a few off the top of my head) so it's not been completely neglected. For that matter, Decision Games (the sort-of successor to SPI) has published a line of games using the Cold War Battles system: Wurzburg Pentomic, the NATO intervention scenario in Hungary '56 (both hypothetical WWIII-based scenarios) and Kabul '79/Angola '87. (Cold War Battles seem to be related to the SPI Modern Battle series of the '70s.) They also recently produced GSFG, an update and homage to "NATO: Operational Combat in Europe in the 1970's".

Tony

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Eddie

I've had more than my share of spats with people like Leg and others on here for slights or perceived slights to my country, and God knows I'm proud to be an American; but I absolutely despise our public education system. I was lucky and overcame the hurdle, but since my three kids got into school, I've been nothing but disappointed. I know Webstral is a teacher, and I hope he does his best to fight the system, but I firmly believe it's broken in this nation. I give kudos to nations that have broken the code and managed to actually educate their people.

Wow. As someone who's taken offense at digs against the U.S. military made on this forum, I'm surprised to see you taking pot shots at another honorable and patriotic but often misunderstood and sometimes thankless profession. The system aint all that great, but most of us do the best with what we're given. In my experience, the issue is not so much with the public education system as it is with parents and the media teaching kids that they don't have to take responsibility for their own futures. Hey, who needs to try to get a good education when they can become a rapper or reality TV "personality"? We're all victims, anyway, right? The hardest part of my job is trying to teach kids who don't want to learn. They expect to be entertained more than educated. I do my best but I'm no Youtube. Public education is a convenient scapegoat for the nation's ills. Why blame absentee parents and a souless entertainment industry when we've got public school teachers to kick around? Open fire.

[helbent4]

Regarding Mongoose Traveller's Book 1: Mercenary:

There is a "Survival" roll, but it's more like the "you must leave the service". You can still continue, but in another career.

I agree with Raellus in that SF characters are so common as to make their "special" nature almost commonplace. Still, in Mercenary there are careers loosely based on the classic Mercenary tickets: "Cadre, Commando, Guerrilla, Security, Striker and Warmonger". "Commando" would naturally work for special ops PCs, but pretty much most of the rest would apply with some imagination.

The combat rules seem to add some nice chrome, although the weapons by their nature are generic, of course.

Tony

[natehale1971]

I still think you could do the Cold War feel with the creation of an Alternate Timeline that continues the Cold War into the 21st Century... The biggest way to have done that is have the USSR and it's satellite states doing what the Chinese Communists have done with their 'State Controlled Capitalism' (ie 'national' socialism)...

Having someone replace Gorby (ie Danilov) who has the appearence of a hardliner, but in reality is the reformer.. who turns Eastern Europe into a rapidly growing economic powerhouse. The USSR had more resources than the USA has, and SHOULD HAVE been able to overcome us... but it was the mismanagement of those resources that saw their downfall.

The PRC saw this, and has been doing everything they can to NOT repeat those mistakes. And as we are seeing now, they are becoming a major economic & political powerhouse.

Just think of what the Cold War could have turned into if the USSR did that instead. They honestly believed that SDI was a real project and not just something that the Reagan Administration wanted to use as a GOAL to inspire the US... just like JFK did with his famous "put a man on the moon" speech.

It was this that caused Gorby to blink... But what IF someone like Danilov came to power, and saw it for what it was. Something to aspire too, and used that to do a major overhaul of the Soviet Bloc... and overhaul like what the PRC has done.

Thus allowing the Cold War to continue on... and then we have the cold war slowly going HOT in the year 2000 with the growth of Islamic fundamentalism (ie the west having originally had used it against the Soviets in Afghanistan and the Central Asian Republics) into a threat than anyone could have ever thought possible (but we in our world know to be true).

And these Islamic fundamentalists are the ones who triggered the Cold War going hot... Be it with terrorist attacks like 11 September 2001, or something as benign as triggering a border dispute between the PRC and USSR.

Thus you can keep the "Twilight: 2000" title for the game, and use the thoughts of importing OUR world into their world... having parallel development of technology (or even an acceleration of technology showing up sooner) allowing for a wide deal of things as well.

Having a slow build-up for the HOT War... allows for the war to become more pronounced and a truly GLOBAL war. And has the bonus of having the major powers being played by the Terrorists.

Something that many of the more popular techno-thriller novels of today are using, and might be a way that the game could use to get new blood into it!

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Wow. As someone who's taken offense at digs against the U.S. military made on this forum, I'm surprised to see you taking pot shots at another honorable and patriotic but often misunderstood and sometimes thankless profession. The system aint all that great, but most of us do the best with what we're given. In my experience, the issue is not so much with the public education system as it is with parents and the media teaching kids that they don't have to take responsibility for their own futures. Hey, who needs to try to get a good education when they can become a successful rapper or reality TV "personality"? We're all victims, anyway, right? Public education is a convenient scapegoat for the nation's ills. Why blame absentee parents and a souless entertainment industry when we've got public school teachers to kick around?

Yuck. Phew. Pfft.

Those are some yucky words you're putting in my mouth, Rae.

Before I go any further, I just want to go on record as stating that my wife and I are not absentee parents. My wife drives my oldest son to school every day so he can go to tutoring early morning and then gets tutoring in the evening. She or I sit with our 8-year-old daughter and help her with her homework every day. My middle child is pretty smart and we never have any troubles with him. We maintain close contact with all of their teachers and my wife goes so far as to sit and make them do any assignment that they "forget about" and turn it in for even a marginal grade. I've gone so far as to shadow my son throughout the day to make sure that he wasn't goofing off and not doing his homework. So yeah, I have a right to talk about the system. Nevermind the fact that I pay my taxes which gives me a right.

I didn't say anything about teachers. I said the system is screwed. Funding priorities in the government are all kinds of messed up. Fuel costs are mandating that districts are charging bus fees. How many school systems are going bankrupt? How poorly are teachers paid? How many school districts have furlough Fridays (or the like)? I said that I know that Web is a teacher and that I hope he fights the system. I meant in the respect that he does the best he can. Not that he's lazy and not doing anything. But I don't know the man. Maybe he is. Maybe you are. But I DID NOT SAY THAT.

Contrary to what you and about five other core members of this board think, I'm not always out to say that you guys suck, my shit doesn't stink, and you are all retarded for not liking 2013. You guys don't like me? That's fine. Don't assume that I'm just trying to argue and accuse everyone else of everything.

You guys have a nice night.

[Raellus]

Wait, aren't you the same guy that gets incensed when anyone mentions anything negative about anything regarding or related to U.S. army "officers"? I don't recall anyone ever mentioned you personally, but you seem to take great offense anyway. Now you're using the cop out of saying that you were slagging the education "system" and not me personally so I shouldn't be upset. I didn't call you an absentee parent did I? You seem to be taking my comments to say that. That's putting words in my mouth. Why are you the only one who can take pride in his profession and get upset when people throw stones? Must be because I don't like the T2013 timeline.

That's called hypocricy.

You have a nice night.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Eddie

Yuck. Phew. Pfft.

Those are some yucky words you're putting in my mouth, Rae.

Before I go any further, I just want to go on record as stating that my wife and I are not absentee parents. My wife drives my oldest son to school every day so he can go to tutoring early morning and then gets tutoring in the evening. She or I sit with our 8-year-old daughter and help her with her homework every day. My middle child is pretty smart and we never have any troubles with him. We maintain close contact with all of their teachers and my wife goes so far as to sit and make them do any assignment that they "forget about" and turn it in for even a marginal grade. I've gone so far as to shadow my son throughout the day to make sure that he wasn't goofing off and not doing his homework. So yeah, I have a right to talk about the system. Nevermind the fact that I pay my taxes which gives me a right.

I didn't say anything about teachers. I said the system is screwed. Funding priorities in the government are all kinds of messed up. Fuel costs are mandating that districts are charging bus fees. How many school systems are going bankrupt? How poorly are teachers paid? How many school districts have furlough Fridays (or the like)? I said that I know that Web is a teacher and that I hope he fights the system. I meant in the respect that he does the best he can. Not that he's lazy and not doing anything. But I don't know the man. Maybe he is. Maybe you are. But I DID NOT SAY THAT.

Contrary to what you and about five other core members of this board think, I'm not always out to say that you guys suck, my shit doesn't stink, and you are all retarded for not liking 2013. You guys don't like me? That's fine. Don't assume that I'm just trying to argue and accuse everyone else of everything.

You guys have a nice night.

Eddie you sound like how things are with my nephew when it comes to helping your children. My sister and brother-in-law does the same thing..

The biggest problem with our education system has been the teachers unions. I know that sounds like talking points, but it's not. To many bad teachers are allowed to stay in the classrooms because they are tenured.

Yes, absentee parents are a problem. and that comes from the fact we have become such a materialistic society that it takes two (or more) income households to 'buy all of the crap' that they think they need. This not only has the problem of there not being a parent in the home when kids get home to help them with their homework (or just MAKE them do the homework), many times those two incomes are being brought in by ONE parent... and that's usually a single mother.

WHY?

Because our society has made marriage just as disposable as diapers. Look at how things are in England.. fathers don't have any rights. it's easy to end a marriage, and yes.. i know this from first hand experience. My wife is British, and took my sons to the UK when she abandoned me after the wreck. She's been shacked up with some guy since then and has a child by him, and we are still legally married. She's living on the dole there, getting all kinds of money from the government.

We don't have that here in the states YET... and in all honesty, i hope that the UK will change that. Because they don't have the money for that kind of crap anymore. But we are seeing how that's going over... all over the European Union we are seeing the nanny state countries collapsing because they don't have the money anymore, and to many of the "Dolists" are too self-centred to see that the free-ride they've gotten has to end because the saying of "there is no such thing as a free lunch" is way to true. Because someone has to pay for that lunch, and when you end up "Robbing Peter to Pay Paul"... Peter will one day get so tired of that, he's going to LEAVE.

I'm not saying that we don't need a safety net, but turning it into a hammock is just to screwed up.

While I didn't like the background of T2013, i've never complained about you and find you to be one of my favorite people to talk with and read on here.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I still think you could do the Cold War feel with the creation of an Alternate Timeline that continues the Cold War into the 21st Century... The biggest way to have done that is have the USSR and it's satellite states doing what the Chinese Communists have done with their 'State Controlled Capitalism' (ie 'national' socialism)...

Something that many of the more popular techno-thriller novels of today are using, and might be a way that the game could use to get new blood into it!

Nate,

Hey, this is awesome! I've thought along these lines, that the Soviets might have taken a page from the Chinese and introduced economic reforms without loosening the CPSU's grip on power. (I assume this happened to a degree in T2K anyways to explain the USSR's longevity.) Increased economic engagement with western Europe could lead to the fragmentation of the NATO alliance, as in T2K.

Some further changes might include a still-separate East Germany, whereupon West Germany has the resources to field the G11 and LMG11. If a non-nuclear or less-nuclear scenario is desired, then Gorbachev may well have accepted Reagan's offer of complete nuclear disarmament at Reykjavik, thus leading to smaller arsenals when war does break out (less time to rearm).

Tony

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Wait, aren't you the same guy that gets incensed when anyone mentions anything negative about anything regarding or related to U.S. army "officers"? I don't recall anyone ever mentioned you personally, but you seem to take great offense anyway. Now you're using the cop out of saying that you were slagging the education "system" and not me personally so I shouldn't be upset. I didn't call you an absentee parent did I? Must be because I don't like the T2013 timeline.

What's the average reading grade level of an American, Rae? How do we rank internationally? How do we rank on standardized tests?

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/...0221227104776/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...120400730.html

Those are just two quick searches.

I'm not trying to make cheap shots. I'm not trying to make this personal between you and me. If you want to, we can go to PM and waste our time.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Nate,

Hey, this is awesome! I've thought along these lines, that the Soviets might have taken a page from the Chinese and introduced economic reforms without loosening the CPSU's grip on power. (I assume this happened to a degree in T2K anyways to explain the USSR's longevity.) Increased economic engagement with western Europe could lead to the fragmentation of the NATO alliance, as in T2K.

Some further changes might include a still-separate East Germany, whereupon West Germany has the resources to field the G11 and LMG11. If a non-nuclear or less-nuclear scenario is desired, then Gorbachev may well have accepted Reagan's offer of complete nuclear disarmament at Reykjavik, thus leading to smaller arsenals when war does break out (less time to rearm).

Tony

An outstanding idea, and best yet if you did want to use current RL history you could easily say that the party returned to power. I recall reading that to this day there is still amazingly enough a sort of fondness for the "good old days" amongst russians.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Nate,

Hey, this is awesome! I've thought along these lines, that the Soviets might have taken a page from the Chinese and introduced economic reforms without loosening the CPSU's grip on power. (I assume this happened to a degree in T2K anyways to explain the USSR's longevity.) Increased economic engagement with western Europe could lead to the fragmentation of the NATO alliance, as in T2K.

Some further changes might include a still-separate East Germany, whereupon West Germany has the resources to field the G11 and LMG11. If a non-nuclear or less-nuclear scenario is desired, then Gorbachev may well have accepted Reagan's offer of complete nuclear disarmament at Reykjavik, thus leading to smaller arsenals when war does break out (less time to rearm).

Tony

Actually Tony... it was Gorby who volunteered total nuclear disarmament, but ONLY if the US abandoned SDI. And as much as Reagan hated Nuclear weapons... he didn't want to abandon the idea of SDI because to many OTHERS in the world had gotten the nuclear bomb genie to visit them.

I've always thought of a separate DDR & Poland having been a very important part of the growing economic powerhouse behind the Iron Curtain. While DDR might be slow at implementing the economic reforms (and their leadership would have helped depose Gorby so someone like Danilov to take over)...

Having a much more limited Nuclear exchange would be perfect for a good gaming universe.... a cross between Twilight 2000 and Merc 2000 setting would be alot of fun, and have civilian as well as military role-playing opportunities to shake a stick at. I've been reading Brad Thor novels, and they've got some really interesting plot ideas (i had read The Athena project in 24 hours and the technology stuff in there was very... interesting).

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Eddie

What's the average reading grade level of an American, Rae? How do we rank internationally? How do we rank on standardized tests?

The system is broken. I can't deny that. Let's slash some more of its funding and see if that helps. All I can do is keep busting my ass to try to help my students learn something while they're in my classroom. If I work hard enough, maybe our nation's standardized test score will go up a little and my pay won't be cut again this year. I should be thankful I haven't been permanently RIF'ed yet. Thanks for the morale boost, Ed.