The (fictional) 27 (Polish) SAS

[James Langham]

27 (Polish) Regiment Special Air Service

The brainchild of Major (then Captain) Alexander Poponick of 23 SAS, this unit was first established as P Troop 23 SAS in January 1996. It composed of the children (and often the grand sons) of Polish immigrants (many of whom had remained in the UK after the second World War). Recruiting primarily from the Polish communities in the East and West Midlands provided a core group of fluent Polish speakers to which were added a number of Regular and TA NCOs who were also fluent in Polish.

Advertisements were placed in local and national papers for fluent Polish speakers and the forces records checked for possible candidates. After selection through the Intelligence Corps depot at Ashford, successful candidates were trained as part of the standard SAS selection training (although expanded to allow for the initial lack of military skills). Out of the initial 200 candidates the numbers were whittled down to 38 (although a number of the unsuccessful ones were redeployed to Intelligence Corps).

The first operation undertaken was Operation Furnace in December 1996, where the troops were inserted onto the Baltic coast. Here they undertook a number of sabotage operations but more usefully acted as fake military police directing Pact traffic down the wrong roads in a manner similar to the German Operation Grief during the Battle of the Bulge. Credited with slowing down two divisions by over two days when their rear echelons were both sent through the same small town. Of the 38 troops, 24 made it back to NATO lines in January (and a further 4 after an epic march via Warsaw in April).

Permission was given in February 1997 to expand the troop to squadron size as P Squadron. Further recruiting expanded numbers to two troops and the unit was renamed as 27 (Polish) SAS in April 1997 as a deception about its strength. Major Poponick was appointed commanding officer. He was instrumental in the peculiarities of dress and regimental march listed below. Despite extensive attempts to recruit, strength has never risen past two troops.

Since then the unit has continued its role of behind the lines operations and has worked with 21SAS on recovery of shot down pilots on a number of occasions. It has also operated in the role of co-ordinating anti-Pact groups in Poland (including joint operations with the American Green Berets 10SFG). As the front has stabilised it has moved back to Germany and is intended to give BAOR a special forces capability as the elements making up the Special Services Brigade are withdrawn to the UK.

Stable belt: Red over white with a buckle showing the regimental badge
Cap badge: The traditional SAS winged dagger
TRF: Diamond, front red, rear white (rarely worn)
Wings: SAS pattern
Beret: Sand
Lanyard: Mixed red and white
Collar dogs: Polish Imperial Eagle
Regimental March: The Eagle Has Landed March (apparently this was an unofficial march from the beginning but was formally adopted in January 1999)
Strength: 59
Current subordination: Theatre level for BAOR

[helbent4]

James,

Outstanding!

Any specific and significant interactions with Polish Solidarność guerrillas or the Free Polish government's (fictional) Home Army? That is, aside from being second banana to the 10th SFG.

Tony

[Canadian Army]

Nice to see some material from Twilight 2000 Wiki (http://twilight2000.wikia.com/wiki/Twilight_2000_Wiki) making it's way into this forum.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Canadian Army

Nice to see some material from Twilight 2000 Wiki (http://twilight2000.wikia.com/wiki/Twilight_2000_Wiki) making it's way into this forum.

It should do - I posted it there too. This is a slightly updated version.

[Adm.Lee]

Excellent!

[rcaf_777]

Excellent (rubbing my hands like C Montgomery Burns)

[Abbott Shaull]

Now the question is would the SAS and the UK being as well as NATO would be willing to raise and sponsor such other units. Much like the British did during WWII. There were several French, Greek, and Polish to name just a handful of nations that had been fallen to Germany and Italy in Europe that were listed with UK and Commonwealth OOB during the duration of the war.

Their was French and Belgian SAS units, Polish Armour Brigade and a Airborne Brigade as well many other troops.

Would NATO Allies in 1997-1998 attempt to raise Brigades of troops from former allies and even some Polish and Czech Brigades to fight alongside it forces?

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Would NATO Allies in 1997-1998 attempt to raise Brigades of troops from former allies and even some Polish and Czech Brigades to fight alongside it forces?

Abbott,

NATO made some impressive gains on their drive into the Soviet Union. Doubtless many Soviet units and individuals were cut off and unlike Warszawa, surrendered. In WWII the Germans raised different "White Russian" and Cossack units. During the Twilight War, it might make sense to recruit Russians and other "Soviet" ethnic groups to form their own units.

Continuing from WWII, Canada was a primary source for non-English SOE personnel as the younger society was more ethnically diverse than the "mother country". If Canada doesn't form it's own Polish unit, it would make sense that a fair degree of the 27th SAS would be Poles from Canada or possibly even the USA.

Tony

[Adm.Lee]

I've been told, and it might even have been true, that the Polish(-descended) population of Chicago makes it the 2nd largest Polish city in the world. Ditto the Hungarian population of Cleveland, a long time ago. I think I've heard the same for western Canada and Ukrainians (descended from Whites who fought the Bolsheviks in the '20s).

That would make for some recruiting grounds.

[Sanjuro]

How about a PPA shoulder flash?

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

I've been told, and it might even have been true, that the Polish(-descended) population of Chicago makes it the 2nd largest Polish city in the world. Ditto the Hungarian population of Cleveland, a long time ago. I think I've heard the same for western Canada and Ukrainians (descended from Whites who fought the Bolsheviks in the '20s).

That would make for some recruiting grounds.

Adm.,

I can't speak for other ethnic groups, but the Ukrainian side of my family migrated from Czarist Gallicia to Saskatchewan around the turn of the century (well before the revolution). I've never heard of a specific White Russian motivation (too early) although that could be possible. It was more that the government and CN Rail advertised heavily in central and Eastern Europe at that time (pre-Revolution Russia) and many were lured by offers of free land in Saskatchewan. Members of my family didn't even speak English until sometime just after WWII.

I recall hearing about Ukrainian groups in Canada dedicated to maintaining links with the "old country". It's possible that they would work with western intelligence (receiving aid via Turkey and the Black Sea) or be recruited into various special operations groups.

Tony

[Abbott Shaull]

I for one don't see that NATO would find many benefits of recruiting such units in the long run. I can see them start the training process and what not, but would they be able to keep them together as a unit long enough to get them to the front before the unit would become to diluted?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

I've been told, and it might even have been true, that the Polish(-descended) population of Chicago makes it the 2nd largest Polish city in the world. Ditto the Hungarian population of Cleveland, a long time ago. I think I've heard the same for western Canada and Ukrainians (descended from Whites who fought the Bolsheviks in the '20s).

According to Wikitravel "Melbourne has the biggest Greek city population (over 800,000) outside Greece and the biggest Italian city population (over 230,000) outside Italy." OT but interesting.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

I for one don't see that NATO would find many benefits of recruiting such units in the long run. I can see them start the training process and what not, but would they be able to keep them together as a unit long enough to get them to the front before the unit would become to diluted?

Abbott,

In the main, most Canadians would probably be recruited into their local regiments, and so on, regardless of ethnic background.

At least for special-purpose units or for operating behind the lines, people who actually know the language and culture as natives would be invaluable. I could see a Commando (special operations company) of the Airborne regiment made up of Poles recruited to operate behind the lines, or Ukrainians to operate in the Ukraine.

Tony

[Rainbow Six]

I've probably mentioned this before, but I'd recommend the novel "The Devil's Alternative" by Frederick Forsyth for anyone interested in the topic of Ukrainian separatists taking on the Soviet Union.

It's set in the 1980's. Long story short, British and Canadian citizens of Ukrainian descent ally with Ukrainian separatists inside the Ukraine in an attempt to assasinate the Chairman of the KGB when he's visiting (I think) Kiev.

The leader of the group outside the Ukraine is the son of a Cossack who surrendered to the British after World War 2 and managed to avoid being deported to the Soviet Union (I think by getting a British woman pregnant - it's been a while since I read it, although I do recall that the author goes into a fair bit of detail on the character's background).

Here's a link to the wiki entry (which does have a number of plot spoilers)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil's_Alternative

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

I can see them start the training process and what not, but would they be able to keep them together as a unit long enough to get them to the front before the unit would become to diluted?

If they were recruited for a special-language commando unit, why would they then break it up?

As for the Ukrainians pre-WW1, I sit corrected.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

If they were recruited for a special-language commando unit, why would they then break it up?

As for the Ukrainians pre-WW1, I sit corrected.

If they were recruited for Commando type unit then they wouldn't break them up. Yet a lot of local raised units once they inducted would lose their local flavor real fast in military systems where they need to feed replacement to front line units.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

If they were recruited for Commando type unit then they wouldn't break them up. Yet a lot of local raised units once they inducted would lose their local flavor real fast in military systems where they need to feed replacement to front line units.

Abbott,

I understand this is not how they do things in the good ol' USA, but different countries adopt different practices. What you assume is universal may not always apply. Local regiments have all been effectively abolished in the US Army but have been retained in Canada and the UK to some degree. This didn't change in WWII, and at least might not happen in WWIII.

Canadian regular regiments ("Reg Force") recruit personnel from a wide(ish) general area, even the replacements will come from those areas. If you are from Quebec you are unlikely to be sent to an "Anglo" unit. In Canada: 2000 in Challenge magazine at least the Militia (reserve) regiments at least in Canada seem to have largely kept their regional and even local nature.

In this hypothetical case, a company or battalion of Ukrainian-Canadian volunteers could be sent to the Ukraine via Turkey sometime during the Twilight War. Or, assigned to the Canadian 5th MIB in western Europe.

Tony

[Abbott Shaull]

See that is one of the advantages that UK and Canada has over the US in my opinion. Then again it would really only work for National Guard units since those units were more or less local raised. Where a small depot detachment much like in the UK system would keep recruiting.

Again in practice with the US Army, once the National Guard were federalized, their local flavor would be lost quickly.

I don't know how much it would work in WWIII. Especially since so many replacement would be needed to send to the front to replace loses.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

See that is one of the advantages that UK and Canada has over the US in my opinion. Then again it would really only work for National Guard units since those units were more or less local raised. Where a small depot detachment much like in the UK system would keep recruiting.

Abbott,



You probably wouldn't see this in Europe in the US Army because there's a complete lack of institutionalised support and tradition. In the CF you'd still see replacements in Europe going to either the "Anglophone" (English) regiments or "Francophone" (French) units because that's built into the very structure of the 'Forces, but probably not much beyond that.

Such units in the CONUS might be possible and even inevitable, especially late-formed ones and ones formed for local defense and security. Basically, "ethnic" or "local" regular units are at best relics of the 19th century (like, the regiments of the US Civil War). Or at worst a product of non-PC and outright racist beliefs that were dismantled in the fifties. It's highly unlikely we'll see the same circumstances that produced the Tuskeegee Airmen or the famed 442nd "Nissei" Regiment. Except in New America, of course! (See "Urban Guerrilla".)

One such modern unit of interest was the 65th Regiment. An all-volunteer unit from Puerto Rico, where the enlisted all spoke Spanish but their officers were white and spoke English. This, however, was a side-effect of the origin of the troops and unit tradition, and not necessarily the segregationist policies of the day.

To go a little dark on this, I could see a kind of "Nissei effect" where, after the Mexican-Soviet invasion of the US, illegal aliens, dissidents and even legal Mexican-American immigrants of dubious patriotism are rounded up as a safeguard against subversive activity. Then, due to a shortage of manpower, all-volunteer units of "loyal" Hispanics are formed, to be used primarily as shock troops (or penal battalions, if you will) against Division Cuba.

I don't necessarily think this is likely, but it's not out of the question and there is historical precedence.

Tony

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Abbott,



You probably wouldn't see this in Europe in the US Army because there's a complete lack of institutionalised support and tradition. In the CF you'd still see replacements in Europe going to either the "Anglophone" (English) regiments or "Francophone" (French) units because that's built into the very structure of the 'Forces, but probably not much beyond that.

Such units in the CONUS might be possible and even inevitable, especially late-formed ones and ones formed for local defense and security. Basically, "ethnic" or "local" regular units are at best relics of the 19th century (like, the regiments of the US Civil War). Or at worst a product of non-PC and outright racist beliefs that were dismantled in the fifties. It's highly unlikely we'll see the same circumstances that produced the Tuskeegee Airmen or the famed 442nd "Nissei" Regiment. Except in New America, of course! (See "Urban Guerrilla".)

One such modern unit of interest was the 65th Regiment. An all-volunteer unit from Puerto Rico, where the enlisted all spoke Spanish but their officers were white and spoke English. This, however, was a side-effect of the origin of the troops and unit tradition, and not necessarily the segregationist policies of the day.

To go a little dark on this, I could see a kind of "Nissei effect" where, after the Mexican-Soviet invasion of the US, illegal aliens, dissidents and even legal Mexican-American immigrants of dubious patriotism are rounded up as a safeguard against subversive activity. Then, due to a shortage of manpower, all-volunteer units of "loyal" Hispanics are formed, to be used primarily as shock troops (or penal battalions, if you will) against Division Cuba.

I don't necessarily think this is likely, but it's not out of the question and there is historical precedence.

Tony

In my background I actually have this happen earlier with rioting against a number of ethnic backgrounds. There ends up being an Italian-American battalion of recently arrived imegrants that serves well, not fixed a location yet but probably Korea.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Basically, "ethnic" or "local" regular units are at best relics of the 19th century (like, the regiments of the US Civil War).

I think you'll find argument (even offence) from those ex and currently serving soldiers from nations that still have such units. Take the British army for example with the centuries of tradition....

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I think you'll find argument (even offence) from those ex and currently serving soldiers from nations that still have such units.

Leg,

I doubt anyone would argue in defence of racial and segregationist policies and beliefs that largely no longer exist (except in New America).

Such units in Canada and the UK are another story and have different origins and traditions.

Tony