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#1
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Does anyone have a better suggestion than the "never was" M691 Diana for US AAA units so designated by the folks at GDW?
While I can understand the need to have a AAA gun vehicle that can keep up with the Abrams, using an Abrams hull to make a AAA vehicle seems to be more than a bit of a waste. If I had to pick one, I'd go with the M113 or LAV based PIVAD. Even the M757 Blazer based on the M-2 Bradley seems a better option. You have more mobility, more options with the Stingers, and more range with a 25mm over the 20mm Vulcan. Improve the sensors over the PIVAD and it seems like you've made all of the necessary improvements. Any thoughts? Dave |
#2
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I agree that the "Diana" seems like a very weak weapons suite for an expensive Abrams chasis. The v1.0 U.S.A.V.G. was a stopgap vehicle so I doubt too many were produced. I'm sure combat testing proved that it lacked sufficient punch for the price. My vote is for something mounted on a Bradley chasis. I like to try to stick to the v1.0 U.S.A.V.G. as much as possible so the M757 Blazer or the M990 (plate G2) would be my picks.
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 02-12-2011 at 05:08 PM. |
#3
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I always liked the Diana, true it had its downsides, but I thought it made some sense to base it on the M1, after all, with the replacement of the M1 with the M1A1, its not unreasonable that the old M1's was diverted to produce it with a simple turret replacement, cheaper than buying a whole new vehicle.
However, I agree, its not the best option despite the fondness I have for it. Honestly, I think a gun/missile system based on the Brad would make a lot more sense for various reasons - hence the M6 Linebacker. One of the things that the procurement process got right for once. ![]()
__________________
Member of the Bofors fan club! The M1911 of automatic cannon. Proud fan(atic) of the CV90 Series. |
#4
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Well for starters the LAV based system didn't have the cross country ability of the M2 or M1 chassis based system, and the M113 chassis based system couldn't keep up.
It was one of the many problems that the US Army faced in the 1980s. It was a time when the military was expanding, but at the same time they were trying to keep the number of items in the inventory down to bare bones as much as possible. It is part of the reason why the Army never adopted the LAV-25 with the M2/M3 and M1 family were just being fielded. Looking at the Isreali Defense Forces using their Main Battle Tank as a base for their new APC, is one of few countries to go this way. So having Diana based on the M1 chassis isn't too far fetch. |
#5
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Yep, the IDF has done a lot of things that makes a lot sense, and should be watched closely because of that. Before they developed the M109 mods that resulted in the Paladin, they seriously worked on making a SPG based on the Merk Hull as well called Slammer. Couple that with the ARV they developed (I don't know if they produced it number) they had a real good chance to have a whole stable of AFV's with immense parts commonality.
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Member of the Bofors fan club! The M1911 of automatic cannon. Proud fan(atic) of the CV90 Series. |
#6
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Yes they did, it one of the things that I think the US military in all branches has limited itself in lot of ways.
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#7
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Heavy Assault Carriers are an idea the IDF has embraced that only make sense in you're a nation with profoundly internal lines, doing low-intensity conflict, with a surplus of tank hulls laying around, and incredibly casualty adverse (in their case due to small population base). For conventional operations they bring less to the table than Infantry Fighting Vehicles -- and (western) IFVs have proven pretty survivable on the battlefield, making even the HAC's main claim to fame dubious. For LIC, they don't do anything an MRAP doesn't do, except eat up massively larger amounts of logistics with higher maintenance demands, lower fuel mileage, and such. So, not a bad idea for the IDF, but not a great idea. Various theories about Abrams based assault carriers have been pushed (engineer vehicle was one that made the pages of Armor back in the 90s) but no one has gone for it. Last edited by HorseSoldier; 02-15-2011 at 12:27 PM. |
#8
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Don't remember if it was on the old board or not, but there was a proposal for an air-defense M-1 variant. Radar guidance, twin 35-mm guns, and a dozen ADATS missiles. Variant was provisionally called the M1AGDS, IIRC.
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Treat everyone you meet with kindness and respect, but always have a plan to kill them. Old USMC Adage |
#9
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I like the idea of MATT but I would go more simply with an M1 mounting a German Gepard turret with twin 35mm. More punch than the 25mm and a turret that is readily available and need no development. An other interesting vehicle would be to have the trial ADATS-Bradley going to production.
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#10
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Sounds badass.
__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#11
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About the only problem with that is the NIH syndrome, which infects the Pentagon. If GDLS (General Dynamics Land Systems) had their own turret design, with radar and twin 35-mm, and offered that to the Army, in a competition with Gepard, guess which would likely be the winner? Unless Congress dictated an off-the-shelf purchase, in which case Gepard turrets on the M-1 chassis would be the likely solution.
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Treat everyone you meet with kindness and respect, but always have a plan to kill them. Old USMC Adage |
#12
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Another problem with the Gepard turret is that it may not be as available as you think. How many have Germany got? How many are they producing? Has any other nation got them?
How many "spares" may there be in wartime? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, I'm just not so sure it would be feasible due to supply issues.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#13
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In regards to the Gepard turret, the numbers in service in the 1980s-1990s were roughly the following: -
West Germany 377 Belgium 55 the Netherlands 95 There are also other off-the-shelf turrets that could have been purchased (like the Gepard turret, these systems were designed to be fitted to tank hulls). Marconi Marksman link 1 link 2 link 3 OTO-Melara Otomatic link 1 (no pics but has links to images) link 2 Last edited by StainlessSteelCynic; 02-13-2011 at 04:20 AM. Reason: Correcting my crap spelling of Beglium (as I spelt it originally) |
#14
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Acording to the Jane's 1984-1985, the Gepard's turret is rated under "international" (NATO). It is also stated that it can be installed on most MBTs including M48 and M60. Nothing was said at the time about the M1 but the tank was just going in production.
Leg, I was not thinking of German produced turret (except may be for the first batch) but of licenced built turrets. In addition to the turret systems already sited you have the Thompson-CSF Sabre twin 30mm. |
#15
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Fair enough. The concept is certainly doable, the only real issue is which system would be used and would the purse strings be opened wide enough, early enough for it to be useful (bugs to work out, limited numbers on the battlefield, etc).
Once the war had been raging for a while and a few spare M1 bodies were laying about, I can see field mods springing up. Throw a towed 20mm PIVAD, captured ZU-23-2 or even a 40mm Bofors on where the turret used to be, strap it all down with chewing gum and fencing wire and you've got yourself an effective infantry destroyer. ![]() Might even see some armour plating bolted on here and there to try and protect the gun crews a little.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#16
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Thats the problem back then there wasn't much off the shelf buying. LAV-25 was one of the few exceptions...
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#17
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Anybody remember the fun and games that Smith & Wesson pulled when the M-9 contract was let out? For a while there I thought Beretta and S&W would hold gunfights out in the parking lot! When Beretta won the trails, S&W had no problems with calling in their lobbyists and their in-house congressmen and throwing a monkey wrench into the approval process, they managed to delay the M-9 for almost two years...for a major contract like a new ADA system...you would think that the Cyberpunk game universe had come to life!
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The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis. |
#18
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Back on point, does anyone know what the US is using for AD now that they benched the linebacker?
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Member of the Bofors fan club! The M1911 of automatic cannon. Proud fan(atic) of the CV90 Series. |
#19
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- C.
__________________
Clayton A. Oliver • Occasional RPG Freelancer Since 1996 Author of The Pacific Northwest, coauthor of Tara Romaneasca, creator of several other free Twilight: 2000 and Twilight: 2013 resources, and curator of an intermittent gaming blog. It rarely takes more than a page to recognize that you're in the presence of someone who can write, but it only takes a sentence to know you're dealing with someone who can't. - Josh Olson |
#20
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I agree with everything which is said but we are talking of a war situation and that changes a lot of things. Of course, no chance that the element would be built outside US but taking over a foreign design (especially when it is only a part of it) has never been a problem.
I just remind you that without UK and their Merlin engine, the P-51 Mustang would have remained an unremarkable aircraft despite having a fantastic airframe. Concerning a US army ADA system in T2K, the situation would have been exactly that. The DIVAD had just failed lamentably and they were pressed by time. As a result, I could very well see foreign sytems being adopted with let say "Ford Aerospace" being tasked with building the turrets and "General Dynamics Land System" assembling the vehicle (plus a fiar number of sub-contractors). Then, it will possibly be operating in teams with Bradley-ADATS. Just an opinion. |
#21
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And have "unforeseen" cost overruns once manufacture started...
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I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com |
#22
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Indeed. It seems that the U.S. military has forgotten the lessons that the Brits learned the hard way in the Falklands, '82.
__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#23
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![]() Quote:
- C.
__________________
Clayton A. Oliver • Occasional RPG Freelancer Since 1996 Author of The Pacific Northwest, coauthor of Tara Romaneasca, creator of several other free Twilight: 2000 and Twilight: 2013 resources, and curator of an intermittent gaming blog. It rarely takes more than a page to recognize that you're in the presence of someone who can write, but it only takes a sentence to know you're dealing with someone who can't. - Josh Olson |
#24
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Have the Brits remembered? I don't even know what AAA we're fielding these days.
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Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird. |
#25
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Although it's a vehicle that never was, I always liked the M990. It's fast, light, but reasonably armored, and carries a decent ammo load and decent-caliber guns. I put my own writeup of it on my Best SP Antiaircraft Vehicles that Never Were page, and gave it the name of "Chamberlain," after one of my heroes, Joshua Chamberlain of the Civil War.
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I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com |
#26
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__________________
Member of the Bofors fan club! The M1911 of automatic cannon. Proud fan(atic) of the CV90 Series. |
#27
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__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#28
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The Linebacker was withdrawn from service. I believe that the current solution is the HMMWV based Avenger.
Some times I believe it would be useful to have the idiots at the Pentagon who make decisions like the total clusterXXXX that has been the post cold war US forward AAA situation listen to Iraqi and German verterans of Gulf War 1 and Normandy who can tell them how paralyzing it is to be under relentless air attack. If you can find a surviving German vet of the Eurpoean campaign, ask him what it's like. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/TWQ-1_Avenger -Dave |
#29
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I'm personally mystified by the decision to withdraw the Linebacker. I'd love to hear the thinking at the top on that decision. It seems like the perfect vehicle for its mission, since it's almost entirely a Bradley except for its mission fit and fits in perfectly with a mechanized or armored division.
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I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com |
#30
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That may be part of the problem -- except for a little bit during the Korean War, the Western militaries of the world know little of what it's like to be on the receiving end of air power. Perhaps we need to talk to the Israelis, but they haven't seen much on the receiving end of air strikes since the 1973 War, either.
__________________
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com |
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