Pirates Of the Vistula thoughts

[weswood]

There's some things about this adventure that have always bothered me. I can't find my copy this instant so I might have some details wrong but....

The Tugboat- yes, I've seen pictures of pointy bowed tugs. But I live near the Houston Ship Channel, I think it's the 3rd largest inland port in the U.S.A. Every tug I've ever seen has a squared off bow. I'm not an expert, but I see tugs at least once a week, pushing everything from barges to cargo & tanker ships.

Another thing about the Vistula Queen is it being a diesel tug converted to steam. Okay, I realize it's a game. But this came up previously on this forum and someone talked to a marine engineer (or something) and was told it would be easier to scrap the diesel and start over for a steam engine. Plus what's always bugged me is the funnel aft of the wheelhouse. Why does a diesel powered craft have that nice ready built funnel????

Then there's the mission. Head down the river to rescue Adam's family & any other survivors they can find. So they're taking a tugboat that doesn't have enough cabin space for the characters, plus a half decked barge? Ooookay.

My idea is dump the tug/barge and have Adam captain a restored paddleboat steamer, similar to what cruised the Mississipi in Mark Twain's time. Already steam powered, plenty of cabin space, easier to repair a wooden hulled vessel than a steel hulled vessel.

I don't know if Poland ever had such boats but I can't see why not.

What's ya'lls thoughts on my idea?

[Sith]

Here is a starting point for European steam riverboats.

http://steamboat.eu/english/La%20Mare%20-%20History.htm

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by weswood

There's some things about this adventure that have always bothered me. I can't find my copy this instant so I might have some details wrong but....

The Tugboat- yes, I've seen pictures of pointy bowed tugs. But I live near the Houston Ship Channel, I think it's the 3rd largest inland port in the U.S.A. Every tug I've ever seen has a squared off bow. I'm not an expert, but I see tugs at least once a week, pushing everything from barges to cargo & tanker ships.

Another thing about the Vistula Queen is it being a diesel tug converted to steam. Okay, I realize it's a game. But this came up previously on this forum and someone talked to a marine engineer (or something) and was told it would be easier to scrap the diesel and start over for a steam engine. Plus what's always bugged me is the funnel aft of the wheelhouse. Why does a diesel powered craft have that nice ready built funnel????

Then there's the mission. Head down the river to rescue Adam's family & any other survivors they can find. So they're taking a tugboat that doesn't have enough cabin space for the characters, plus a half decked barge? Ooookay.

My idea is dump the tug/barge and have Adam captain a restored paddleboat steamer, similar to what cruised the Mississipi in Mark Twain's time. Already steam powered, plenty of cabin space, easier to repair a wooden hulled vessel than a steel hulled vessel.

I don't know if Poland ever had such boats but I can't see why not.

What's ya'lls thoughts on my idea?

The tugs you see in Houston are barge tugs, intended for inland waterways and harbors...

Adam's tug may be a coastal tug, it would explain the bow difference. Still...why is it so far up the river? As for the funnel...a lot of tugs have the "traditional" funnel, its fitted with air intakes, the diesel exhaust is a pipe that runs up the backside of the funnel....

[simonmark6]

Lots of tugs have pointed prows. The ones that work the river by me do but they are littoral rather than pure riverine craft. The Vistula Queen could have doubled as an ice breaker which would give it a reason to be that far upriver when blunt nosed tugs would be better.

As for the engines, you are correct, the conversion suggested in the book is fantasy. The tug is quite old though and probably had a steam engine originally, if I was running the game I'd have the diesels replaced by a salvaged steam engine.

There is a paddle wheel boat in Krakow, it's called the legenda but from what I can tell it isn't a steamer, merely a modern engine powered replica. this might need a lot of work too and doesn't have the cabin or cargo space that Adam needs. Add to that the fact that it is top heavy and would be made more so by any defences or armaments and that makes it nearly as unfeasible as the funny tug.

When you look at the whole scenario realistically, it gets thinner and thinner: the tug and barge can't really deal with the refugees and in the long run, why the hell are people still living in Warsaw anyway? I would have to assume that Adam is actually mad and that the whole mission is doomed to failure.

Or, you can suspend some disbelief and have fun, the problem is that if you have to suspend too much disbelief, it may no longer be fun for you.

[kcdusk]

I better get my thoughts out here before Reallus turns up!

1. Pointed or wide-nosed bow, meh, doesnt matter. Ones in Australia are pointy. Maybe wide nose is a European thing.

2. Diesel or steam? I cannot remember but i reckon either in "Pirates" or "Going Home" they talk about either the Tug or Train as having something different about it, suspend belieft etc as to how its powered. Either way, as a GM i'd be happy to make the tug diesel or steam powered because either way maintaining fuel is going to be a challange and thats what the game is about.

3. Position of funnels? Too detailed for me. Dont care. Maybe its a Eurpean thing.

4. Tugboat + half decked out barge? Well, its T2K. I think its the only option they have. You could poke "mate, theres got to be a better way" holes in almost any of the scenarios. I think the idea was to give you a mode of transport (tug) and a trailer type platform (barge) that isnt quite fit for purpose and have the PCs work with it. Heavy equipment verse room for people? A way to have PCs have to dump some gear. Also, a fun part, a chance to deck out the tug and barge with armaments and defensive positions. Non-combat role play and skills required but you can still get a taste of preparing for combat. After fitting out both tug and barge the PCs have to live with their dreamboat or nightmare for the rest of the adventure. Personally i really liked this aspect of the game.

5. You could decide to get a big paddleboat Weswood. As a GM i'd love it if a group of players wanted to play that out. Just like in the great race though, it has its own pros and cons. You'd have to persued the old coot to ditch his tug, find a paddleboat, make it river & battle worthy and hope she got under bridges or around fallen ones. I'd be thinking a paddleboat is too big a target with no "hardness" about it that the tug has. Not as manouverable. No speed. Great dining room though!

No problems with your thoughts Weswood. Personally i dont worry about minor (to me) details like shape of tug nose or funnels. I think steam or diesel question doesnt matter because in either case i think you'd be scrounging wood/coal/diesel the while trip. And i like players who think a bit outside the square like considering something other than the tug, even though in this case i'd still go the tug (but i enjoyed thinking about other ideas).

If you dont like the idea of going to warsay, rescuing people etc then move on to another town/scenario. Or if its morw the means of the rescue, run with your paddlesteamer idea.

Its T2K. Lots of stuff is happening that doesnt make sense in the Pre-T2K world.

[dvyws]

I apologise for the way this is going to sound, but the whole tone of this post comes across as "that's not how its done here in America, so it must be wrong".

The flat fronted tugboat is primarily (but not exclusively) an American stryle - most others I have encountered have a more conventional pointed bow. Most of my experience is coastal/port (including the Houston Ship Channel, oddly enough, both al the way up to the City Docks, and aso to Barbour's Cut, about half way up), but a lot of river tows end up in these areas, so I've seen more thgan a few.

Not sure what the problem is with the funnel being aft of the wheelhouse? Most diesel vessels actually do have funnels, admittedly often for aesthetics, but they are useful for providing a way of shifting the exhaust outlet up and away from the crew.

The only vesses I am aware of (steam or diesel) that have funnels in front of the wheelhouse are Clyde Puffers, and I'm not sure if any of these still exist.

and finally, accommodation. This is not a luxury yacht or a pleasure cruise - witg individual cabins and a seperate bunk for everyone. Why would anyone (particularly in the austere T2K world) expect or want more than a section of deck to sit or lie on?

Oh, and post finally - what on earth makes you think that a restored Mississippi paddle steamer is going to available in Central Europe? I've been around most of the worlds waterways, and I've seen precisely one, and tat was in, err, New Orleans, on the Missippi!

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by weswood

The Tugboat- yes, I've seen pictures of pointy bowed tugs.

I have nothing on this. The nearest tugs to me are on the Ohio, and most of those have flat bows, and are called towboats, even though they push their barges. I suppose some research could turn up what Vistula boats look like. I figure this is a case of "everyone knows what a tugboat looks like, it has a pointy bow and a big stack aft."

Another thing about the Vistula Queen is it being a diesel tug converted to steam. Okay, I realize it's a game....

Me, too. I know a tiny bit about steam locomotives, and their boilers look nothing like marine diesels. Now, if the VQ had a electric drive, I suppose you could remove the diesel power plant and swap in a wood-fired boiler to power the generators. It would be a s***-ton of work, and would wreck the boat's balance and deck strength, but you could do it. Or, you could just hand-wave it and say she had a steam powerplant all along.
EDIT: Or add a 2nd barge, holding the boiler and generator, wired to the drive motors still in the VQ, with the diesels disabled.

Then there's the mission. ... So they're taking a tugboat that doesn't have enough cabin space for the characters, plus a half decked barge?

I never had a problem with this-- my PCs moved their vehicles onto the barge and set up tents or shanties on the half-deck. The refugees could set up on the deck, too. What's the problem? OK, maybe they would need to pick up another barge for the trip home.

My idea is dump the tug/barge and have Adam captain a restored paddle-boat steamer, similar to what cruised the Mississippi in Mark Twain's time. Already steam powered, plenty of cabin space, easier to repair a wooden hulled vessel than a steel hulled vessel.

That could work, too, provided there was a tourist-style steamer on the Vistula. Not something I could see the communist Polish government spending money on, but stranger things have happened.

Now I'm kinda jonesing to take this adventure and run it again. Especially the return trip, I never did that. I think my first group took off overland to start Going Home from near Warsaw, and my second just ended after the Warsaw battle.

[Adm.Lee]

I suppose there is http://www.flickr.com/photos/fernhou...n/photostream/ this one, taken in Wroclaw.

[Grimace]

Tugboats can be pushers, pullers, or both. Some have squared off bows, some have blunted bows, some have pointed bows. Just do a Google image search for tugboats and you'll see a lot of differe varieties.

The funnel...I don't see a problem with it at all. I'm not sure what problem you have with it, really? You exhaust the diesel fumes up and away because tugs are just as likely to go backwards in their work as they are forwards. So exhausting out the back would end up with a deck full of diesel exhaust and generally unhappy crew. Again, on a Google image search you'll see a LOT of tugboats have funnels to exhaust up instead of out the back.

The tug in the Vistula books is probably a puller, even though it could just as likely push with the stern as well as the bow with proper placement of tires/bumpers.

Room/bunks....tugs aren't meant for a lot of people. Small crew. Slap more people than the usual crew of the tug and you have people sleeping on deck or wherever they can find a spot. They don't make tugs for comfort, they make them for utility and power.

I did a little reading up on tugs, and some of them have the equivalent of a railroad train engine in them. That means power! Pushing a barge (or pulling) isn't going to be all that when those things are used to pushing whole ships like freighters and warships.

Here's a link to a tug similar that in the Vistula module. It's not made of metal. tugboat picture

If you really want to use a paddleboat steamer, yes, you could say one was salvaged and restored. Though I think it would just be easier to go with the tearing out of the diesel engine and installing a steam engine in its place.

Anyway, I hope this helps some.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by dvyws

I apologise for the way this is going to sound, but the whole tone of this post comes across as "that's not how its done here in America, so it must be wrong".

The flat fronted tugboat is primarily (but not exclusively) an American stryle - most others I have encountered have a more conventional pointed bow. Most of my experience is coastal/port (including the Houston Ship Channel, oddly enough, both al the way up to the City Docks, and aso to Barbour's Cut, about half way up), but a lot of river tows end up in these areas, so I've seen more thgan a few.

Not sure what the problem is with the funnel being aft of the wheelhouse? Most diesel vessels actually do have funnels, admittedly often for aesthetics, but they are useful for providing a way of shifting the exhaust outlet up and away from the crew.

The only vesses I am aware of (steam or diesel) that have funnels in front of the wheelhouse are Clyde Puffers, and I'm not sure if any of these still exist.

and finally, accommodation. This is not a luxury yacht or a pleasure cruise - witg individual cabins and a seperate bunk for everyone. Why would anyone (particularly in the austere T2K world) expect or want more than a section of deck to sit or lie on?

Oh, and post finally - what on earth makes you think that a restored Mississippi paddle steamer is going to available in Central Europe? I've been around most of the worlds waterways, and I've seen precisely one, and tat was in, err, New Orleans, on the Missippi!

Don't know where the comments about the location of the funnel comes from; my only comment was that tugs often have air intakes in the funnel with the exhaust trunked up a pipe at the rear of the funnel.

Have to agree about the powerplant, converting diesels into wood burners...seems that it would be about in par with converting my John Deere to run on nuclear power!

The bad points of the module would have to be the deck layout, anybody notice that on the 1st Edition version, the VQ has another deck above the bridge level? And the maps for the river......let's just say that if you pull up detailed charts of the river, it just doesn't match the module.

Concur on the cabins....a dry spot of deck would be 1st Class in T2K!

There are a couple of paddle wheelers in Vicksburg...on-the-river casinos.

[weswood]

Originally Posted by dvyws

I apologise for the way this is going to sound, but the whole tone of this post comes across as "that's not how its done here in America, so it must be wrong".
Oh, and post finally - what on earth makes you think that a restored Mississippi paddle steamer is going to available in Central Europe? I've been around most of the worlds waterways, and I've seen precisely one, and tat was in, err, New Orleans, on the Missippi!

Not at all. All my great fund of "experience" with tugs/tows/barges is what I see on the Ship Channel once a week or so. That's the point of starting the thread, to find out what more traveled members of the board think. Besides America, I've been to Okinawa Japan. and up and down the Korean peninusla, and the Philipines. And at the time I was more interested in old whiskey, fast cars, and young women.

I'm not trying to say some one transported a Mississippi River paddleboat to Europe. I just find it hard to believe that the Mississippi is the only place oin the world that has them.

[weswood]

The only problem I have with the funnel is that's a damn big exhaust pipe even for a diesel. Come to think of it, I've never seen a tug as big as the Vistula Queen, not doubting they exist, just never seen one.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by weswood

The only problem I have with the funnel is that's a damn big exhaust pipe even for a diesel. Come to think of it, I've never seen a tug as big as the Vistula Queen, not doubting they exist, just never seen one.

That's why I think the ole VQ is a coastal tug. Large enough to handle rough seas if needed. And way too small to take on a transatlantic voyage, just to keep the players honest!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

One thing to think about is that the Vistula is significantly long.
It stretches from the Baltic near Gdansk through to Grudziadz, down to Bydgoszcz, through Torun on to Włocławek and then to Płock, Warszawa, Sandomierz, Tarnobrzeg, Krakow and finally to Oświęcim (AKA Auschwitz).

The river is quite wide and reasonably deep for much of its length so it's not too unlikely for a coastal boat from the Gdansk area to ply its trade even as far as Krakow and barges are still very much in use in Poland even today where they are often used for the transport of construction materials (e.g. sand, gravel, girders, timber) and plant machinery & generators.

A friend of mine has some photos of some barges in use on the Vistula that might be useful. I'll see if he can find them so I can post them here.
While I don't know about paddlesteamer type vessels, the Polish did (and still have) a large number of leisure boats from before, during and after the Communist era, ranging from the typical tourist around the harbour types to the faster cruise types you see on Russian rivers. However, one thing I seem to recall (although I can't be certain) was that the tug was used for the adventure because it could cope with possible obstructions on the river and so on as well as being able to tow a barge.

While I was trying to find some info about the Vistula, I came across this website, lots of images of the river and the settlements on its banks.

[atiff]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

While I was trying to find some info about the Vistula, I came across this website, lots of images of the river and the settlements on its banks.

Nice one!

For the engines, rather than replacing with steam, it would seem to make more sense that they installed a gazogene and ran the engines with that.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

The bad points of the module would have to be the deck layout, anybody notice that on the 1st Edition version, the VQ has another deck above the bridge level?

Umm, that would be the roof. Note the spotlight, horn etc?
Also note the "upper deck" is actually located below the bridge.

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

And the maps for the river......let's just say that if you pull up detailed charts of the river, it just doesn't match the module.

Correct, however it is stated that the river has moved since the beginning of the war. There's reference to an entire bridge a kilometre or more away from the river, left stranded and crossing only the remnants of the main channel.
Without regular maintenance the river is returning to it's natural state as also evidenced in the random encounter possibilities - snags and sandbanks being two.

Note that the Adam's intention was to rescue his family, nothing more. That means maybe a dozen people. As it turns out there's a LOT more than a dozen people who may require rescue.
It's also worth pointing out that the VQ is Adam's boat - The paddle boat is not. The mission is Adam's. He knows the VQ like the back of his hand, he does not know any other boat anywhere near as well. The VQ is adequate for shifting the necessary supplies and people to get his limited mission accomplished.

[Grimace]

Originally Posted by atiff

Nice one!

For the engines, rather than replacing with steam, it would seem to make more sense that they installed a gazogene and ran the engines with that.

Honestly, swapping the diesel engines for steam engines isn't so outlandish. Converting it IS outlandish, but swapping not so much. I read somewhere that a lot of the older diesel tugs in Europe were once ran on steam engines and they were swapped out for diesel engines. So swapping them back, which is a distinct possibility for the VQ, isn't so hard to believe.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Umm, that would be the roof. Note the spotlight, horn etc?
Also note the "upper deck" is actually located below the bridge.

Nope....my copy of PoV has the roof of the bridge, a deck with no description a "bridge level" then the superstructure ...in other words three levels. My best guess based on the drawings is that the printer copied two bridge levels.

[Grimace]

I think you got a weird copy. Mine shows the bridge on the top deck.

Lower deck, Main Deck, Upper Deck, Bridge Deck. No mystery deck anywhere on it.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

The tugs you see in Houston are barge tugs, intended for inland waterways and harbors...

Adam's tug may be a coastal tug, it would explain the bow difference. Still...why is it so far up the river? As for the funnel...a lot of tugs have the "traditional" funnel, its fitted with air intakes, the diesel exhaust is a pipe that runs up the backside of the funnel....

I think somewhere that both the tug, and the main combat ship of Black Baron fleet were both started out as being able to be used in Coastal work and River work. Dependent on where the tug could find work and where the gun ship was needed. Ironic was that the old Austria-Hungry Navy was largely River based organization in WWI. Also for the most part the Russia Navy before WWI had some sea going for projection force but we know how that turned out for them around 1905.

Many of the European powers through the centuries have fluctuated from having deep water naval power to something resembling a coastal defense.

[dragoon500ly]

Have to disagree with you here, the old Imperial Austria-Hungerian Navy actually had a much larger deep sea navy, they certainly gave the Italian Navy quite a run during in WWI.

The river gunboats actually belonged to the Imperial & Royal Army of Austria-Hungray. They spent most of their war tearing up the Romanians.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Have to disagree with you here, the old Imperial Austria-Hungerian Navy actually had a much larger deep sea navy, they certainly gave the Italian Navy quite a run during in WWI.

The river gunboats actually belonged to the Imperial & Royal Army of Austria-Hungray. They spent most of their war tearing up the Romanians.

Then my mistake for thinking an history book would have it right...lol

[Panther Al]

Heh... The Austrian-Hungarian Navy Pre-WW1 wasn't too bad. Not a first rate navy, no, but it most assuredly was no joke either. Hard to claim Second Rate for that matter, but, where it counted from the A-H point of view, it was all that was needed: At the time, you couldn't go into the Adriatic without the A-H letting you. Of course, that rule didn't apply to the RN, for the RN was *the* 800 pound gorilla of the worlds navies.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Then my mistake for thinking an history book would have it right...lol

A US historybook...then there is the mistake!

Been doing some research for a Fear God and Dreadnought campaign, the AH Navy was a hell of a lot more active then the history books talk about. From some of the Italian sources, while no major battleship fights, the naval war between them was a intense series of cruiser/destroyer/torpedo boat actions right up until 11/11/18. And the AH had the upper hand.

The whole thing with WWI research is that if it doesn't involve the Western Front or Turky, then there is very little info that is easily available. Most textbooks don't mention the fighting in the Far East at all; might have a paragraph or two on the African Campaign; may have a chapter on Turky and the Near East; only mention in a sentence or two, the fighting in the Balkans and then devote the rest of the section to the Western Front.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

A US historybook...then there is the mistake!

Been doing some research for a Fear God and Dreadnought campaign, the AH Navy was a hell of a lot more active then the history books talk about. From some of the Italian sources, while no major battleship fights, the naval war between them was a intense series of cruiser/destroyer/torpedo boat actions right up until 11/11/18. And the AH had the upper hand.

The whole thing with WWI research is that if it doesn't involve the Western Front or Turky, then there is very little info that is easily available. Most textbooks don't mention the fighting in the Far East at all; might have a paragraph or two on the African Campaign; may have a chapter on Turky and the Near East; only mention in a sentence or two, the fighting in the Balkans and then devote the rest of the section to the Western Front.

Yeah, but the same with many WWII books. Mostly Europe and the western front. All other aren't quite nearly as extensively cover.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Yeah, but the same with many WWII books. Mostly Europe and the western front. All other aren't quite nearly as extensively cover.

You always hear the quote that the winners write the history books....that isn't at all. The researchers only go to were the good beer and food are!

[Abbott Shaull]

yeah...

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

You always hear the quote that the winners write the history books....that isn't at all. The researchers only go to were the good beer and food are!

Or where they could translate the records. Or where they could even get access to them.

[dragoon500ly]

I remember reading somewhere that the Library of Congress still has over 1,800 tons of records from WWII that are still sitting in crates, waiting to be cataloged. Its the old lack of funds/lack of storage space/lack of researchers story. Still...considering that a lot of records of the 5th Air Force (Southwest Pacific) are missing, the records that were evac from Bataan before the fall...

Something to do over a long weekend hay!

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by weswood

There's some things about this adventure that have always bothered me. I can't find my copy this instant so I might have some details wrong but....

The Tugboat- yes, I've seen pictures of pointy bowed tugs. But I live near the Houston Ship Channel, I think it's the 3rd largest inland port in the U.S.A. Every tug I've ever seen has a squared off bow. I'm not an expert, but I see tugs at least once a week, pushing everything from barges to cargo & tanker ships.

Another thing about the Vistula Queen is it being a diesel tug converted to steam. Okay, I realize it's a game. But this came up previously on this forum and someone talked to a marine engineer (or something) and was told it would be easier to scrap the diesel and start over for a steam engine. Plus what's always bugged me is the funnel aft of the wheelhouse. Why does a diesel powered craft have that nice ready built funnel????

Then there's the mission. Head down the river to rescue Adam's family & any other survivors they can find. So they're taking a tugboat that doesn't have enough cabin space for the characters, plus a half decked barge? Ooookay.

My idea is dump the tug/barge and have Adam captain a restored paddleboat steamer, similar to what cruised the Mississipi in Mark Twain's time. Already steam powered, plenty of cabin space, easier to repair a wooden hulled vessel than a steel hulled vessel.

I don't know if Poland ever had such boats but I can't see why not.

What's ya'lls thoughts on my idea?

Worth remembering that the VQ is Adam's SECOND attempt to get there, can't remember off the top of my head what resources he had on the first run.