Worldwide weapony post-T2K

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

Although obviously only if the whiskey is spelt the correct way.....

Which is obviously without the e...

[TiggerCCW UK]

Suppress urge to slag the furniture polish that the Scots think is whiskey....

In fairness as single malts go, its hard to beat an Islay malt, or Glenfarclas 105 if you prefer a lighter flavour, but for an every day drinking whiskey, I was always a Jameson or Bush man.

[dragoon500ly]

LOL

Nothing beats Jack Daniels old number 7!

[Panther Al]

Except just about anything made in Scotland, or better yet, Ireland.




*says the guy with Black Bush and Clynelish in his cupboard*

[WallShadow]

To bring the thread back onto topic and meld the current subject of discussion, I think that honest-to-God backwoods homemade "shine" will outstrip any competitors as a beverage, a paint-stripper, or a lethal weapon!

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

As far as I have been able to tell, the Sterling Armaments Company was still in existence up to at least 1987 as that's when the final versions of the rifle where produced (hence it's designation of SAR-87). The rifle itself was a joint project between Sterling and Chartered Industries of Singapore (CIS) even though the primary work was done by Sterling as a result of their experience manufacturing the AR-18.

However, even though Sterling went out of business as such, it did not disappear. It was bought out by British Aerospace who also had control of Royal Ordnance. The designs were kept into the early 1990s when I believe BAe allowed CIS to buy the full rights to the rifle. CIS produced some upgraded versions as the Singapore Assault Rifle but dropped the design later and focused on the manufacture of the bullpup SAR-21 rifle.

It should also be pointed out that the apparent reason that BAe closed down the Sterling facilities was due to the UK government's belief in the 'peace dividend' from the end of the Cold War. Had the Cold War continued, it's highly unlikely the UK Govt would have shutdown as many military projects as it did, (many of which were canned simply to save money).
While this does not mean the SAR-87 would have been put back into production, it does suggest that the designs and tooling could have been kept rather than sold in their entirety to Singapore and thus been available for manufacturing the rifle when the Sino-Soviet conflict escalates.

Edit: As a side note, the Singaporeans had made an earlier rifle,the SAR-80. Once they got involved with Sterling, they produced the SR-88 based on the SAR-80 and the SAR-87. Neither of the Singaporean rifles made enough sales to remain in production.

I had a quick play round with the idea and came up with this:

SA80A2 and Stirling Armaments

The Gulf War of 1991 showed the deficiencies of the SA80 in sandy and dusty conditions. The SAS sergeant turned author Andy McNab commented that “in the SA80 the British Army bought a Rolls-Royce, albeit a prototype Rolls Royce.� The name itself also highlights the fact that SA80 stood for Small Arm for the 1980s, even though problems with the weapon resulted in the issue only late in the decade. The initial SA80 (known as the L85) was quickly superseded by the L85A1 which added a guard rail around the magazine release catch to stop the accidental release of the magazine (a problem increased by the use of the excellent sling which allowed the weapon to be slung across the chest).

In late 1992 after the results of the study instituted at the end of the war were published, it was decided to create an upgrade programme for the weapon. The preferred choice Heckler and Koch were unavailable as they were now ramping up production of the G11 and G41 for the German Army. In a job creation scheme, the British Government bought up the now defunct Stirling Armaments company and gave them the contract (this caused much resentment through the arms industry that the programme had not been open to competitive tender – Royal Ordnance in particular were very upset and took the case to court – this had not been resolved by the outbreak of war when Royal Ordnance were given a contract to produce further L85A2s).

Stirling made a number of changes to the basic design, these included a new stronger firing pin, heavier recoil springs, a heavier magazine with redesigned lips (although still STANAG compatible), a better gas plug (that eliminated the chance of getting it seriously stuck in the weapon if it was removed at the wrong angle), a new cocking handle with a unique comma shape and a strengthened safety catch bar. The same upgrades were also made to the L86A1 (LSW) creating the L86A2. The cadet forces rifle, the L98A1 was also rebuilt with the same changes, converting it from a manually cocked weapon to a semi-automatic only weapon, the L98A2. The L98A2 was (other than the lack of a change lever) an L85A2 in all but name. Conversions of all from A1 to A2 standard had only just started as war broke out although gradually the A1 type was supplemented and sowly overtaken by new production A2s.

In December 1996 with fighting in Europe reaching epic proportions, more rifles were needed, the L1A1 SLR and L2A3 Stirling were pulled from storage as were the 10,000 M16s bought in the early 1960s (the British Army had actually adopted the M16 before the US Army!). This still did not meet demand. It was originally suggested that Stirling Armaments would produce L85A2s and L86A2s. This would however have taken time to set up the tools as only the upgraded items were ready to be produced. As an interim measure the director of Stirling suggested that the production lines for the L2A3 and upgraded AR18 (the SAR87) that had been manufactured commercially until the company went bankrupt were reopened. The Ministry of Defence agreed immediately. The SAR87 was renamed the L18 rifle and put into full scale production. A modified AR18S was also put into low volume production with the same changes as the Carbine L19. These were basically AR18Ss that had been modified to take the STANAG magazine. It was also possible to swap the barrel, bolt and magazine and add a magazine housing adapter, to produce a 9mm submachine gun version of either (this was slightly modified from the original kit to take L2A3 magazines. These were known as the L18A1 and L19A1 respectively when fitted with the L172 conversion kit. Few of these were taken into service and most that were, were issued to Ministry of Defence Police. Numbers are however impossible to determine as the weapons could be converted into each other. Records of how many kits were bought were lost when the factory was destroyed. Many of the issued rifles went to home defence units (in some cases replacing the .303 No4 rifles that some had been issued during the rifle shortages) although there are instances of units being fully equipped with L18s (generally these were issued the L4A4 Bren as an LMG instead of L86s).

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

To bring the thread back onto topic and meld the current subject of discussion, I think that honest-to-God backwoods homemade "shine" will outstrip any competitors as a beverage, a paint-stripper, or a lethal weapon!

At last, someone with real taste.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by James Langham

I had a quick play round with the idea and came up with this:

SA80A2 and Stirling Armaments

The Gulf War of 1991 showed the deficiencies of the SA80 in sandy and dusty conditions. The SAS sergeant turned author Andy McNab commented that “in the SA80 the British Army bought a Rolls-Royce, albeit a prototype Rolls Royce.� The name itself also highlights the fact that SA80 stood for Small Arm for the 1980s, even though problems with the weapon resulted in the issue only late in the decade. The initial SA80 (known as the L85) was quickly superseded by the L85A1 which added a guard rail around the magazine release catch to stop the accidental release of the magazine (a problem increased by the use of the excellent sling which allowed the weapon to be slung across the chest).

In late 1992 after the results of the study instituted at the end of the war were published, it was decided to create an upgrade programme for the weapon. The preferred choice Heckler and Koch were unavailable as they were now ramping up production of the G11 and G41 for the German Army. In a job creation scheme, the British Government bought up the now defunct Stirling Armaments company and gave them the contract (this caused much resentment through the arms industry that the programme had not been open to competitive tender – Royal Ordnance in particular were very upset and took the case to court – this had not been resolved by the outbreak of war when Royal Ordnance were given a contract to produce further L85A2s).

Stirling made a number of changes to the basic design, these included a new stronger firing pin, heavier recoil springs, a heavier magazine with redesigned lips (although still STANAG compatible), a better gas plug (that eliminated the chance of getting it seriously stuck in the weapon if it was removed at the wrong angle), a new cocking handle with a unique comma shape and a strengthened safety catch bar. The same upgrades were also made to the L86A1 (LSW) creating the L86A2. The cadet forces rifle, the L98A1 was also rebuilt with the same changes, converting it from a manually cocked weapon to a semi-automatic only weapon, the L98A2. The L98A2 was (other than the lack of a change lever) an L85A2 in all but name. Conversions of all from A1 to A2 standard had only just started as war broke out although gradually the A1 type was supplemented and sowly overtaken by new production A2s.

In December 1996 with fighting in Europe reaching epic proportions, more rifles were needed, the L1A1 SLR and L2A3 Stirling were pulled from storage as were the 10,000 M16s bought in the early 1960s (the British Army had actually adopted the M16 before the US Army!). This still did not meet demand. It was originally suggested that Stirling Armaments would produce L85A2s and L86A2s. This would however have taken time to set up the tools as only the upgraded items were ready to be produced. As an interim measure the director of Stirling suggested that the production lines for the L2A3 and upgraded AR18 (the SAR87) that had been manufactured commercially until the company went bankrupt were reopened. The Ministry of Defence agreed immediately. The SAR87 was renamed the L18 rifle and put into full scale production. A modified AR18S was also put into low volume production with the same changes as the Carbine L19. These were basically AR18Ss that had been modified to take the STANAG magazine. It was also possible to swap the barrel, bolt and magazine and add a magazine housing adapter, to produce a 9mm submachine gun version of either (this was slightly modified from the original kit to take L2A3 magazines. These were known as the L18A1 and L19A1 respectively when fitted with the L172 conversion kit. Few of these were taken into service and most that were, were issued to Ministry of Defence Police. Numbers are however impossible to determine as the weapons could be converted into each other. Records of how many kits were bought were lost when the factory was destroyed. Many of the issued rifles went to home defence units (in some cases replacing the .303 No4 rifles that some had been issued during the rifle shortages) although there are instances of units being fully equipped with L18s (generally these were issued the L4A4 Bren as an LMG instead of L86s).

Now that is a work of genius mate.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

Now that is a work of genius mate.

Thanks not 100% happy with it - for one thing I can't find a pic of a British soldier with an Ar18 to put with it.

Can anyone help or suggest and improvements?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by atiff

In defense of all concerned, I must say that the 'average' Kiwi in WWII should only be rated so highly because of the enhancement to the average made by the men in the Maori battalion.

Scary thought for the day - men of the Maori battalion vs. Ghurkas.

Just one of the many fundamental and important differences in the ways that the indigenous peoples of New Zealand and Australia were treated. Australian Aborigines came perilously close to being wiped from the face of the earth during the 1800s and the shattered survivors were literally wards of the state (legally speaking) even as adults until the 1960s when they were finally recognised with citizenship and voting rights. An appalling dark stain on Australia's collective soul. The situation in New Zealand was completely different. The Maori, as individual tribes and in large-scale united resistance, fought three major and dozens of minor wars with the British Empire during the 1800s and in the end were only defeated because they were outnumbered 20 to one and the Redcoats took to burning their villages and slaughtering their non-combatants.

The beginning of the end of the Maori Wars came with the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi under which the Maori were recognised as equal subjects of the British Empire and had all the requisite rights under the law. Then New Zealand became the first modern democracy to grant all adult citizens, male and female, the vote when it became an independent nation.

From even before independence Maori men were welcomed into the British Army and associated colonial forces. It's a very similar situation to the Nepalis - they excel at warfare, proved exceedingly difficult and costly to fully vanquish, they volunteer to wage war for you so you arm them, transport them to the vicinity of the enemy, point them in the right direction and give them heaps of room.

The 19th century Maori probably thought it was an excellent deal, being provided with firearms and ammunition to go kill people AND get paid to engage in their favourite hobby!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The problem being that as far as anyone at the time could see, the Maori, the Zulu, the Afghanis, the Nepalese etc. etc. etc. all appeared to have an organized and relatively sophisticated culture whereas the Australian aborigines were still living a hunter/gather lifestyle that was essentially proto-neolithic.

As far as could be seen, they had no larger organization above the clan group and certainly paid little interest to other aboriginal groups except for potential wives or as competitors for resources. They produced nothing extra to the basics of daily subsistence.
The aborigines were incredibly primitive compared to every other group the British had come in contact with and this lead to the state of affairs known as Terra Nullius for Australia.

The fact that the aborigines had had no significant change in their culture or lifestyle for over 40,000 years meant they were ill-equipped to understand the concepts of warfare that the Maoris, the Zulu, the Nepalese and so on, so readily accepted. If the aborigines had been able to organize fighting units in a similar line with what the Maoris had, they probably would have been given similar status to the Maori. As it was, with the disdain Europeans had for the less cultured peoples of the world, the aborigines were seen as the most primitive of them all.

[Mohoender]

And we dare pretend to be civilized...

[Arrissen]

White Kiwis actually tend to be big solid farm boys decended from wild Celts like Scottish Highlanders. Besides, Anzac's are Anzac's. No need to go splitting hairs. They're all green in the army anyway and work happily side by side.

[Olefin]

Before this thread turned into a discussion on whiskey and if Aussies are Brits this was a very interesting discussion.

While it did get bogged down a lot in France there are other places that weapons could be obtained in the world post Twilight War that also merit discussion.

In the V1 timeline Japan is virtually untouched as are the Swedes. While the Japanese dont fare as well in V2 the Swedes stilll come out pretty good.

Both countries have indigenous weapon production factories that could be excellent sources of weapons post war. I could see the Swedes selling especially to the Germans, Danes, Norwegians and the Dutch and eventually the new Baltic nations and the Poles, whereas the Japanese could find customers in South Korea and China.

Another source for weapons could be Taiwan which was almost not even mentioned in the timeline. Again while most of their weapons were mods of existing vehicles you could see them being used to keep older systems going and providing a source of things like light tanks and APC's based on older American designs.

Finally another major source of weapons could be South Africa, which by virtue of the embargo on them by most of the world because of apartheid, developed their own tanks, APC's, planes, etc..

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Before this thread turned into a discussion on whiskey and if Aussies are Brits this was a very interesting discussion.

Cruel, but a fair comment on the derailment

[Targan]

Brazil. Obviously they've ramped things up IRL since the time T2K is set in, but I'm sure WWIII would have given them the impetus they needed to become a major arms supplier during and after the Twilight War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...nies_of_Brazil

[pmulcahy11b]

My vote would be with small arms shops set up in garages and free cities, and places like the arms in Pakistan are made. They can build you a crude copy of almost any small arms you care to mention, and the ammunition for it. It may not be 100% reliable, but a lot of places you find may be able to at least repair your weapons -- and may have stored things like rocket launchers or missiles, just for a contingency like necessity, or haggling in a big deal.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

My vote would be with small arms shops set up in garages and free cities, and places like the arms in Pakistan are made. They can build you a crude copy of almost any small arms you care to mention, and the ammunition for it. It may not be 100% reliable, but a lot of places you find may be able to at least repair your weapons -- and may have stored things like rocket launchers or missiles, just for a contingency like necessity, or haggling in a big deal.

A perfect place like that would also be Yemen - I remember reading about how many small shops there are exactly like that there that can turn out just about any kind of small arms - including perfect copies of older British and American rifles - let alone fix a broken fire arm.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Targan

Brazil. Obviously they're ramped things up IRL since the time T2K is set in, but I'm sure WWIII would have given them the impetus they needed to become a major arms supplier during and after the Twilight War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...nies_of_Brazil

I agree with you there Targan on their ability to provide weaponry - its actually even canon that they have already sold vehicles in the RDF area either pre-war or during the war as several Brazilian vehicles are mentioned there - meaning that exported vehicles are already there and part of the action by mid-2000

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Brazil has quite an "overstock" of M3/M5 Stuart light tanks, I could see them shipping some overseas (at least in a v1 timeline) and the US RDF building a brigade out of them - the Brazilian variants are called X1 and X1A2 (the -a1 variant wasn't built). They mount a 90mm DEFA gun, have upgraded sights and other modern conveniences.

X1, X1A1 Carcara and X1A2 Light Tank

Bernardini S/A Industria e Comercio (Bernardini Industrial and Commerce Company) of Sao Paulo, Brazil, which operated from 1912 to 1992, was originally a safe manufacturer. During its later years it branched out into vehicle production, with products including the M41B and M41C Light Tanks upgrades from the American M41, and the X1, X1A1 and X1A2 Light Tank rebuilds of the American M3, the MB-3 Tamoyo tank and the Xingu BT25 and BT50 wheeled vehicles.

At least 20 American M3 Stuart Light Tanks (out of a promised 65) were received in 1942 and used to replace armor then available in Brazil. A further 200 were acquired between 1944 and 1945, both in the M3 and M3A1 versions. By the 1970's it was becoming increasingly difficult to find spare parts for these tanks, so a decision was made to modernize part of the M3A1 series. The decision to modernize vehicles so old was a political one: by 1977 Brazil had denounced the US-Brazilian military agreements, so no more obsolete (and cheap) vehicles were available from North American sources.

In the early 1970s Bernardini rebuilt two American M3A1 Stuart light tanks for the Brazilian Army. Technical control of the project was under the direction of the Brazilian Army Research and Development Centre. The modifications included replacing the armor above the tracks by new sloped armor provided by the Biselli company, replacement of the original American gasoline engine with a six-cylinder Saab-Scania diesel developing 280 bhp, new volute suspension designed by the Novatracao company, new turret with a French DEFA D-921A 90 F1 90mm gun as fitted to the Panhard AML (4×4) and other light AFVs, and a fire-control system designed by the D F Vasconcelos Company. The vehicles weighed 15,000 kg, had a road range of 450 km and could ford to a depth of 1 meter without preparation.

Following prototype trials, the Brazilian Army ordered 100 M3A1 light tanks to be rebuilt to the new standard. The first 80 vehicles were modernized between 1975 and 1978. These were delivered to Cavalry Regiments under the designation X1, with final deliveries made in 1978. The new car, known as CC MB1 (Combat Car, Brazilian Model nr. 1) or X1A, remained in service until the 1990's.

The X1 was followed by the Carcara, or X1A1. This is essentially a stretched X1 with an additional volute spring suspension group, and three bogies (instead of two) on each side. The engine and turret were the same as fitted to the earlier X1 tank. Trials with the X1A1 were completed in 1977-78 but the Brazilian Army did not place an order for the vehicle and it didn't reach production.

Further development resulted in the CC MB2 X1A2 which was based on a new chassis rather than a rebuild of an M3A1 chassis. The X1A2 was offered for export. Based on the X1A1, this version retained very little of the original Stuart as even its hull was redesigned. The vehicle weighed 19 tons, had a crew of 3, was armed with a 90-mm gun and was powered by a Saab-Scania 300 hp diesel engine. A total of 30 vehicles - completely new ones, not modernized Stuarts - were produced in 1979-1983.

All had been withdrawn from Brazilian service by the end of the 1990s.

...

It mounts the same main gun as the Panhard AML-90, operated by Bahrain, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Lebanon, and essentially all of North Africa, so ammunition for the DEFA D921 90mm shouldn't be an issue. The gun fires HE and HEAT rounds.

I could see the US buying maybe a dozen or two if the Brazilians offered them for the RDF or hell even European forces (possibly CivGov if the Brazilians would deal, for use in Romania).

Anyway that's my $.02.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Also, while AvGas is at a serious premium, for light/liason work in the air I could see most western militaries pressing "traffic choppers" and civilian light a/c into service for the role; the OH58D is merely a militarized Bell Jetranger, and the AH-3/MH-3 is but a Hughes 500MD similarly outfitted.

As we've discussed with the possibility of the Littlefield Collection winding up as THE armored division west of the Rockies, likewise I'm sure large portions of the CAF would be too tempting for the government to pass up on. Like pressing Shermans into front line service, any aircraft is better than no aircraft, so the notion of having a P47 plus a couple of P51s - and a huge number of prop-driven bombers - is a great advantage.

Plus, the CAF also operates five jet aircraft (a MiG-17, two MiG-15s, a MiG-21, a Lockheed T-33 and I was amazed to discover they operate an F4 Phantom).

Now, as to ships, consider the huge number of museum ships out there. Of course getting, say for example, the USS Alabama up and running again would be a massive, massive undertaking not even considering that she needs oil in them thar engines in more ways than just fuel...that might be a post-post-Twilight War undertaking...

On the more practical side, regarding small arms? Yeah, the US in Post T2k is going to be swimming in everything from .22 revolvers up to .50 machine guns (and DsHK's) pretty much forever, so no issue there. Wasn't there something in Howling Wilderness about millions of "Civilian M16s" distributed to local law enforcement and Civil Defense in kit form as a show of "support" for the reconstruction project? Something to the effect of if you see guys in uniforms all holding M16s its a sign that there's some kind of authority or organized effort at reconstruction or something like that.

[Olefin]

Actually those Brazilian Stuart variants could have been used by the Mexican Army as well. In real life in the 90's the only tanks they had were M3 Stuart tanks and 3 Sherman tank retrievers.

That upgunned Stuart would fit perfectly in the Mexican Army and could be what made up their tank formations during the invasion. Would have allowed them to take on the light armor that the Guard and the light divisions would have had for sure.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Actually those Brazilian Stuart variants could have been used by the Mexican Army as well. In real life in the 90's the only tanks they had were M3 Stuart tanks and 3 Sherman tank retrievers.

That upgunned Stuart would fit perfectly in the Mexican Army and could be what made up their tank formations during the invasion. Would have allowed them to take on the light armor that the Guard and the light divisions would have had for sure.

Truth...although I guess it depends on who Brazil was aligned with at the time. They've always seemed to have been close to the US in military terms, more-or-less although fortunes of war and so forth...

I wonder what the specs on the new hull armor and rangefinding gear are.

Also, IRL, Brazil sold off a crapload of Stuarts (not the rebuilds) a few years ago. I remember reading somewhere that collectors were scrambling to get them as A - there were tons of them and B - they were being sold off for a pittance.

[Olefin]

Between the Littlefield and other private collections and the amouint that were still in various South American countries I could see the Stuart still being a factor in Twilight War and post Twilight War battlefields for quite some time

"As we've discussed with the possibility of the Littlefield Collection winding up as THE armored division west of the Rockies, likewise I'm sure large portions of the CAF would be too tempting for the government to pass up on. Like pressing Shermans into front line service, any aircraft is better than no aircraft, so the notion of having a P47 plus a couple of P51s - and a huge number of prop-driven bombers - is a great advantage."

I would think that its more than a possibility - its the only real source of tanks and armored vehicles and more importantly trained techs and repair facilities in that area. And I agree with you on the value of old WWII fighters to MilGov and CivGov - yes they need aviation gas - but not as much as jets do. Plus keep in mind things like the Ozarks scenario. A single P-51 could shoot those airships and ultralights to pieces. And during that timeframe there were literally hundreds of WWII fighters, trainers, etc. still around in flyable shape in the US and Canada.

[kato13]

Here is a link to a similar discussion we had last year.
Modernizing an M3 (M5A1) Stuart in the T2k setting.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Not just Brazil either, at various points in their history a few South American nations have built their vehicles and weapons locally (and not just local assembly of a foreign design but full manufacture of both licenced and indigenous designs).
Most of us here are probably aware that nations like Chile, Colombia and Mexico have produced smallarms and ammo for some time and also that Argentina and Brazil have produced vehicles but Argentina also built a number of it's own warships and I think it's been already mentioned earlier in the thread that they also built warplanes.

Perhaps more interesting, they also built an indigenous tank during WW2 and they still have access to local technical expertise to manufacture armour plate. *
Argentina also built a post-war SPG by converting Crusader tank hulls to carry guns taken from Krupp and Bofors 75mm field guns. The same platform was also converted to provide MLRS and AAG systems. **

With the potential for resources provided by Antarctica and no UN body to prevent its exploitation, it's possibly worth the effort for some Latin American nations to charge up their defence industries simply to secure resources from the Antarctic region for themselves. This would then put them in a pretty good position to supply armaments to other countries.


* For anyone interested in Argentina's first local tank design, the "Nahuel" D.L. 43 (Nahuel has been taken to mean "tiger" in one of the Mapuche languages but it is probably more correctly translated as "puma" - there aren't many tigers in that part of the world!), the following page is about the most comprehensive write-up in English on the net: -
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww...ahuel_DL43.php

This Russian page has a small amount of additional info
http://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/tanks/a...ahuel_dl43.htm
Google Translate version
https://translate.google.com/transla...ahuel_dl43.htm

There is also a YouTube video (well, a slideshow really) with a number of images but the listed data is very wrong in some cases.

** This page has a number of photos of both the Nahuel Medium Tank and the Crusader SPG but a small amount of data although it is info not covered on other sites. The site is also specifically about Argentina's military so appears to be far more accurate than some other sources on the net.
The Nahuel is the second tank entry on the page with the Crusader SPG immediately following it. Sorry for lack of specific location but the page layout is appallingly bad - done in blog style rather than individual pages!
http://www.militariarg.com/tanks-sup...-vehicles.html

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I would think that its more than a possibility - its the only real source of tanks and armored vehicles and more importantly trained techs and repair facilities in that area. And I agree with you on the value of old WWII fighters to MilGov and CivGov - yes they need aviation gas - but not as much as jets do. Plus keep in mind things like the Ozarks scenario. A single P-51 could shoot those airships and ultralights to pieces. And during that timeframe there were literally hundreds of WWII fighters, trainers, etc. still around in flyable shape in the US and Canada.

I'll just leave this here for you, boys...

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/thi...50c-1647964258

- C.

[Wolf sword]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

I'll just leave this here for you, boys...

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/thi...50c-1647964258

- C.

And another FYI, Ron Fagan bought a Mitchel Bomber not that long ago.
The WW2 reenacting group had been to his airshow that they put on.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Before this thread turned into a discussion on whiskey and if Aussies are Brits this was a very interesting discussion.

While it did get bogged down a lot in France there are other places that weapons could be obtained in the world post Twilight War that also merit discussion.

In the V1 timeline Japan is virtually untouched as are the Swedes. While the Japanese dont fare as well in V2 the Swedes stilll come out pretty good.

Both countries have indigenous weapon production factories that could be excellent sources of weapons post war. I could see the Swedes selling especially to the Germans, Danes, Norwegians and the Dutch and eventually the new Baltic nations and the Poles, whereas the Japanese could find customers in South Korea and China.

Another source for weapons could be Taiwan which was almost not even mentioned in the timeline. Again while most of their weapons were mods of existing vehicles you could see them being used to keep older systems going and providing a source of things like light tanks and APC's based on older American designs.

Finally another major source of weapons could be South Africa, which by virtue of the embargo on them by most of the world because of apartheid, developed their own tanks, APC's, planes, etc..

Most military stuff in Japan is from Howa Heavy Industries, I'd say in V2 that they get a mix of U.S., Singapore and Philipine small arms. The U.S. stuff as aid, High tech parts trade for the rest.

[unkated]

Spain and Portugal:

Portugal produced a local version of the G3 starting in the mid-1980s, as well as MG-3. And of course 7.62N ammo to go with it.

Spain (I never quite understood the supposed reasons for Spain to fall apart completely in any canon, though I can see falling back to regional levels. Regional govt + factories + ports hmmm) produced not only small arms, but IFVs, including supporting artillery.

Spain produced an indigenous AR design (CETME model C) in 7.62N starting in 1974, replaced by an improved action in 5.56N starting in 1987. And the MAG3 MG. As well as local production of mortars and artillery, and both IFV/APCs and soft-skinned military vehicles.

So, Some amount of weapons and NATO-flavored ammo may be available in the UK nearer than Japan or Brazil.

Brazil it self is an interesting case, as even if you strike its oil industry targets with small nukes...

• It's a large enough place that a few strikes will not destroy all of it.
• In this period, it was taking strides away from oil dependence, including creating industrial ethanol production.
• It had a fairly large industrial output, including softskin and IFV, APCs and tanks.
• It had agricultural output enough to cover its population.

Argentina is also in a decent position - except as far as I know, they had not yet made an ethanol industry...

More on that in another topic.

Uncle Ted