US Army uniform question.

[weswood]

Not quite OT. On US Army's name tape and the tape thaqt says "US Army", isn't the name supposed to be over the right pocket and the US Army over the left?

I'm watching a show on the SciFi network and the mistakes I've seen in the 1st 10 minutes are giving me a headache. One guy is running around with no rear sight for his M4, and when they show brass hitting the floor from freshly fired rounds, not only does it hit in groups like someone just dropped a handfull, it's clearly old and tarnished like it's been left out on the firing range for a month.

[ArmySGT.]

Yes, U.S. Army is over the heart. Soldiers left, viewers right.

What do you expect of Hollywood?

However every military movie, there will be intentional uniform mistakes as it is illegal to impersonate a Service member.

[dragoon500ly]

LOL!

Like when SiFry had an Army general wearing a SEAL qualification badge?

[weswood]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

However every military movie, there will be intentional uniform mistakes as it is illegal to impersonate a Service member.

I was aware it's illegal to impersonate a service member, but somehow that never translated to movies for me.

I gave up the show after about 20 minutes, I can only handle so much stupidity at once.

[natehale1971]

I really miss Stargate: SG1 where they actually stayed as close as posible to the actual uniform standards with very MINOR changes that only someone who knows exactly how things are suppose to be done (ie... putting badges in a SLIGHTLY different order).

I watched "The Morlocks" last night, and it was hilorious watching guys wearing the ACU's with the mandrin collar closed, and olive drab rank patches not only on both sides of their thoat, but in the centre of their chest.

[weswood]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I really miss Stargate: SG1 where they actually stayed as close as posible to the actual uniform standards with very MINOR changes that only someone who knows exactly how things are suppose to be done (ie... putting badges in a SLIGHTLY different order).

I watched "The Morlocks" last night, and it was hilorious watching guys wearing the ACU's with the mandrin collar closed, and olive drab rank patches not only on both sides of their thoat, but in the centre of their chest.

That's what I was attempting to watch. If it wasn't for the wife & kid, I'd probably sell all our TVs.

[natehale1971]

It's not that bad... History Channel has some good stuff on it.

I watch all kinds of things... But i think TNT & the USA Network are the two channels above all others that I watch along with the two main news channels I like.

But I will admit that one of the things that worries me about shows/movies like "The Morlocks" is that civilians would watch it, and actually think that's how the military works.

I REALLY wish that someone would do a show based on Twilight 2000... or use the background proposed by the 'documentary' of a ficitional World War Three that happened in 1989 that was done with by David McCallum narrating it... I really wish i could find a copy of that movie.

[ArmySGT.]

No the all time greatest is "Hot Shots".

The intentional mistakes are comedy Gold. I am laughing now about the blinking lights around the salad bar (dress ribbons).

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

No the all time greatest is "Hot Shots".

The intentional mistakes are comedy Gold. I am laughing now about the blinking lights around the salad bar (dress ribbons).

Oh just admit it... you'd put blinking lights around your saldbar if you were given the chance! hell... i know someone in real life who was like that for real. He loved to wear his FULL MEDALS at any opporutunity. He even had the mini medals on the lapel of his suit jackets when uniforms were not allowed.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

This is a kind of interesting thread regarding the "illegal to impersonate a soldier bit" - I remember when saving private ryan and Band of Brothers debuted that their production values were lauded especially the attention to detail in uniforms to the point that in the case of US uniforms they got the specs from the Pentagon on the stitch count for badge lettering and in many cases went back to original manufacturers for other gear.

Of course I've also heard complaints the other way about both productions, that many of the Garands shown were (to the trained eye) clearly of the wrong production type (e.g., post 1945) and so on.

[pmulcahy11b]

If you're a movie producer and the DoD likes you (and your script), you can get permission to have your actors wear completely authentic and accurate uniforms, even if they are current-day uniforms. From what I've heard, though, getting that permission is a bitch -- even if your production is done with the active aid of the US military.

That permission, or even simple aid from the US military, can however be yanked in a heartbeat -- it's how the unit in Heartbreak Ridge, for example, went from being Rangers to Marine Recon. A lot of the actions portrayed in Heartbreak Ridge did actually happen, but to Ranger units and not Marine units. (No unit had all that happen to them, however.)

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

That permission, or even simple aid from the US military, can however be yanked in a heartbeat -- it's how the unit in Heartbreak Ridge, for example, went from being Rangers to Marine Recon.

That's kinda funny, 'cause I distinctly remember reading a newspaper interview with an Army general, I think it was the Fifth Army CG, when he came to my hometown in late 1986. When asked about recruiting, he noted the positive effect of Top Gun for the Navy, and wished someone would make a movie about the Rangers in Grenada. That would have been just as Heartbreak Ridge came out, so it might have been mentioned in respect to the Marines and their recruiting. I suspect the general did not know about the shift in the movie.

Platoon came out that same autumn, but I really don't think that did much for Army recruiting.

A lot of the actions portrayed in Heartbreak Ridge did actually happen, but to Ranger units and not Marine units. (No unit had all that happen to them, however.)

Speaking of that last movie, when I took a class on the Vietnam War, one of the guest speakers had been a rifleman in Oliver Stone's company, different platoon. IIRC, he said Stone was wounded and transferred to another division. He said that the first part of the movie was accurate, but the village sequence happened in the other division. I forgot to ask him about the big battle at the end.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

No the all time greatest is "Hot Shots".

The intentional mistakes are comedy Gold. I am laughing now about the blinking lights around the salad bar (dress ribbons).

My favorite uniform item in that movie was Walleye's -- Mil-spec eyeglasses, thick as a coke bottle bottom, with little fishes swimming inside the lenses...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

LOL!

Like when SiFry had an Army general wearing a SEAL qualification badge?

Well, the special ops units have long been sending their troops to each others' schools. So that one is actually possible.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by weswood

I was aware it's illegal to impersonate a service member, but somehow that never translated to movies for me.

I gave up the show after about 20 minutes, I can only handle so much stupidity at once.

My favorites are the bottomless magazines, infinite revolver cylinders, and rocket launchers and grenade launchers that fire repeatedly without reloading. I actually made a joke out asking a drill sergeant for "one of those bottomless magazines they have in the movies." He laughed, then dropped me for 50.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Well, the special ops units have long been sending their troops to each others' schools. So that one is actually possible.

Heck... I knew a US Navy SEAL who had left the US Navy and reenlisted into the Army because of an injury that percluded him from further service as a SEAL. But the army didnt hold that minor injury against him and allowed him to go into the US Army Special Operations Command. And the Army even commissioned him.

[Schone23666]

Well, like or hate the tv show JAG, they did have fairly accurate uniforms, if nothing else...

I sort of both liked and hated that show in equal measure, though guys I hung with back in my AF days laughed and snickered at it, saying it should have been called "combat lawyers"

Then again, when it came to the uniforms, I always seemed to have my eye on Catherine Bell's uniform more often than most. No way THAT uniform was standard issue the way it fit her though...

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

Well, like or hate the tv show JAG, they did have fairly accurate uniforms, if nothing else...

I sort of both liked and hated that show in equal measure, though guys I hung with back in my AF days laughed and snickered at it, saying it should have been called "combat lawyers"

Then again, when it came to the uniforms, I always seemed to have my eye on Catherine Bell's uniform more often than most. No way THAT uniform was standard issue the way it fit her though...

Officers are actually allowed to tailor their uniforms no matter the nationality... and some enlisted actually got away with tailoring their uniforms to 'fit & look better'

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by weswood

Not quite OT. On US Army's name tape and the tape thaqt says "US Army", isn't the name supposed to be over the right pocket and the US Army over the left?

I'm watching a show on the SciFi network and the mistakes I've seen in the 1st 10 minutes are giving me a headache. One guy is running around with no rear sight for his M4, and when they show brass hitting the floor from freshly fired rounds, not only does it hit in groups like someone just dropped a handfull, it's clearly old and tarnished like it's been left out on the firing range for a month.

Ugh....I know B-grade movies only have so much of a budget to work with, but they can be done SOMEWHAT decently if they really do try to work hard within their means...but it seems SYFY and their ridiculous BS obsession with CGI effects, recycled plots, recycled characters, idiotic dialogue....gawd, Roger Corman's stuff looks like damn genius in comparison (though he really did put out a few decent creepy titles like the Dance of the Red Death, and Pit and the Pendulum).

All that said, I would almost kill just to see maybe a few decent scifi or fantasy flicks where the military types at least get portrayed somewhat realistically as professional yet flawed human beings and not cliches?

Rant over, getting off the soapbox now...

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Officers are actually allowed to tailor their uniforms no matter the nationality... and some enlisted actually got away with tailoring their uniforms to 'fit & look better'

Oh lordy...it's not actually quite so much anything to do with uniforms, but...when I was a civilian contractor, for a bit I ran jobs between the various Navy sites in Hampton Roads. At Little Creek I was at one of the SEAL's quarters (think it was Team 8, not sure, I visited several) and had to speak with the admin about some machine issues they needed me to look at. Well, most of the admin were women, but they were out there doing morning PT with the rest of the SEALS as it turned out (mostly anyway)...and good lord, if the woman I had to speak with hadn't just come back from PT, she looked GOOD, and she had only on a tshirt and a pair of shorts almost so damn high they could have been classified as Daisy Duke shorts!

Of course, I ended up gawking for a moment, but even as a civilian still remembered my professional bearing and conferred with her professionally. Of course, she noticed my gawking but only smirked and seemed to take it all in stride, as though to say "What can I say? I DO look that good."

So anyway, now I know the secret to some of the SEAL team members motivation to get up every day.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Well, the special ops units have long been sending their troops to each others' schools. So that one is actually possible.

I know that its possible, it was just the whole fruit salad this "general" was wearing that had me howling...you know, the Combat Infantry Badge, worn under an Expert Infantry Badge; a Navy Cross, a Silver Star with five repeats, a Purple Heart, A SEAL Qualification Badge on the right pocket; the Royal Thai Parachute Badge worn over his ribbons (and no US parachute badges); a Special Forces tab on the left sleeve, a Ranger tab on the right and no unit patch on his right shoulder and no green tabs......it truly was a sight to behold!

And a great big thank you SiFry for the laugh!

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

I know that its possible, it was just the whole fruit salad this "general" was wearing that had me howling...you know, the Combat Infantry Badge, worn under an Expert Infantry Badge; a Navy Cross, a Silver Star with five repeats, a Purple Heart, A SEAL Qualification Badge on the right pocket; the Royal Thai Parachute Badge worn over his ribbons (and no US parachute badges); a Special Forces tab on the left sleeve, a Ranger tab on the right and no unit patch on his right shoulder and no green tabs......it truly was a sight to behold!

And a great big thank you SiFry for the laugh!

Sounds like one of two of the Fake Vets that was running around in this area a few years ago. One had said he was a POW who got rescued by SEALs during Vietnam. The other claimed to have saved some POWs while he was in Vietnam. The two had been totally unrelated with each other. But enough people who had been buying their stories thought that they matched enough that they had to be real. a news paper got the two together.... and they didn't miss a beat and claimed that the other was the one who was rescued/was the rescueer... for several years the two ran around getting local awards and the like until someone saw them wearing medals that just didn' go together.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

I know that its possible, it was just the whole fruit salad this "general" was wearing that had me howling...you know, the Combat Infantry Badge, worn under an Expert Infantry Badge; a Navy Cross, a Silver Star with five repeats, a Purple Heart, A SEAL Qualification Badge on the right pocket; the Royal Thai Parachute Badge worn over his ribbons (and no US parachute badges); a Special Forces tab on the left sleeve, a Ranger tab on the right and no unit patch on his right shoulder and no green tabs......it truly was a sight to behold!

And a great big thank you SiFry for the laugh!

I wish I had seen that show! Oh good god, what a mess...the producer probably sent some flunky down to the nearest military surplus store and told him, "just grab some stuff that looks cool."

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Officers are actually allowed to tailor their uniforms no matter the nationality... and some enlisted actually got away with tailoring their uniforms to 'fit & look better'

I did that with my Class A's...when I was in Korea, I even got two sets of Class A's made especially for me out of the raw cloth (in Korea, that only cost me about $150; now that the dollar's not nearly as strong, it probably costs a lot more).

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I wish I had seen that show! Oh good god, what a mess...the producer probably sent some flunky down to the nearest military surplus store and told him, "just grab some stuff that looks cool."

I joked with my wife that the producer had probably hit a flea market and just bought a bag full of stuff!

As for the show itself, it was some movie concerning an insect horde out to destroy mankind, I think. The plot was as laughable as the uniforms! Although I did love the M-60 that fired well over 5,000 rounds without a barrel change...not to mention the gunner who humped the Pig and that much ammo without an a-gunner or an ammo humper!

Gotta love these B-grade comedies!!!

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

However every military movie, there will be intentional uniform mistakes as it is illegal to impersonate a Service member.

I don't think so, unless you have a source for that (about movies being subject to the law). Mine says that isn't true for performances.

From Title 10, U.S. Code:
CHAPTER 45—THE UNIFORM

While portraying a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, an actor in a theatrical or motion-picture production may wear the uniform of that armed force if the portrayal does not tend to discredit that armed force.

Further to that, the 1970 case SCHACHT v. UNITED STATES found that the 'discrediting' portion of the law was unconstitutional and civilian actors do in fact have every right to wear the uniform in a production and discredit the military if they so choose.

[Top-Break]

When it comes to getting things wrong, there's none better than some of the clowns in Hollywood. Most of Hollywood (with some now ageing exceptions) has no practical experience with the military. Producers and directors are counting on the audience knowing less about military matters than the average potted plant. They also go for the close enough rule. If it can fool the casual observer at 10 feet, then it's spot on. When productions do make the effort, the results can be astounding. When they don't, it's either insulting or hilarious.

Besides, how many people leaned a little closer to the screen when the mock-Panzers arrived in Saving Private Ryan? After seeing zillions of Pattons, Pershings, and Chaffees given a quick spray of gray paint and a couple of dozen Iron Crosses and called Panzers, the Ryan Panzers were amazing.

[Top-Break]

Here's a link for anyone interested in nitpicking movies.

http://imfdb.org

Enough gun/uniform/gear nitpicking for at least one forum.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Platoon came out that same autumn, but I really don't think that did much for Army recruiting.

Speaking of that last movie, when I took a class on the Vietnam War, one of the guest speakers had been a rifleman in Oliver Stone's company, different platoon. IIRC, he said Stone was wounded and transferred to another division. He said that the first part of the movie was accurate, but the village sequence happened in the other division. I forgot to ask him about the big battle at the end.

Gee, more info. I was reading Soldiering on in a dying war: the true story of the Firebase Pace incidents and the Vietnam drawdown, and on p. 214, we have this:

[The 271st VC Regiment] emerged at midnight New Year's Day 1968 to attack Fire Support Base Burt on the Vietnamese/Cambodian border. This time they clashed with elements of the 25th Infantry "Tropic Lightning" Division. In what was described as 'savage and desperate' fighting, the Vietcong were repulsed under a hail of bombs and bullets, including 1,500 mortar and artillery rounds and 200,000 rounds of small arms. When daylight came, more than 400 enemy bodies were counted. The defenders of this base included a young enlisted man named Oliver Stone. His recollections of this attack would form the basis of the climactic ending scenes in the movie Platoon twenty years later.

[dragoon500ly]

And SiFry Strikes Again...

Caught a movie that featured a Special Forces A Team....The team wore the right desert cammies....but the team leader wore Air Force E-7 stripes...last time I checked A-teams were led by Army Captains!

Loved the color-coordinated sunglasses!

M-60 gunners are so cute when they wear red lenses!