Tires and meds

[Trmckelvey]

In your various MP campaigns, does anyone address how long consumables such as tires, meds, ammo and food would last in the extended sleep scenario used in the core rules?

In other words do you generally assume all the teams consumables are factory fresh when they wake up? Meds certainly have a finite shelf life for instance, and ammo gets unpredictable with age. Rubber tires detiriorate under normal storage conditions.

Was just wondering if everyone assumes the project's preservation techniques are good enough after 150 years.

I know one module, cant remember which mentions that a biker group was the envy of their rivals because the actually had rubber tires on their motorcycles rather than steel rimmed wheels.

That got me to thinking about what it would take to keep chemical compounds like tires, meds, gunpowder from degrading over the course of a century and a half.

[Gelrir]

Well, it's a matter of squinting a bit.

Presuming a sincere Morrow Project, they expect nobody will be in a bolthole for more than twenty or thirty years ... they didn't have fusion reactors before 1979, the Atomic War was in 1989. It's not quite clear to me what the Project was doing with their recruits and cryosleep berths before 1979. Big diesel generators?

(if you're running some variant game ... well ... )

So: the boltholes are sealed, the atmosphere is entirely nitrogen, big tubs of dehumidifier compounds are set out on the floor. Vehicles are up on jackstands, to prevent the tires from getting 'flat on the bottom'; the tires may even be deflated to reduce pressure on the rubber, or the wheels removed and laid up 'flat'. All fluids are removed from vehicles, anti-corrosion measures and preservatives are applied -- the sort of stuff the Air Force does to preserve aircraft at Davis-Monthan AFB. A heater, run by the reactor, prevents any dangerously-low temperatures (not too likely underground in any case). Ammunition, foods, lubricants, etc. are chosen with an eye towards 'long lifespan', since even after the teams leave their boltholes their supplies may have to last for years during reconstruction. Food and other organic compounds are irradiated to kill any germs.

I've fired ammunition that's 50 or 60 years old with no trouble -- and have also had issues with ammunition only 30 years old. While they didn't fire a lot of it, there was a video recently at the excellent Forgotten Weapons blog where 100+ years-old ammo was fired in a test:

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/remi...l-8-ammo-test/

And, as referee ... you cheat. Just describe surviving items as "well, that's lucky" or "you don't know if the aspirin is still good, do you?". Plus it's always fun when the characters look at their 100-year-past-the-printed-expiration-date packet of chili.

http://www.civildefensemuseum.com/cd...y/medical.html

One thing not to cheat on: radioactive half-lives. Tritium is used to activate the glow-in-the-dark markings on various items (military compasses most notably). The half-life of tritium is 12.3 years ... after 12 half-lives it's pretty much kaput.

I find that discussions about how the Project made/chose only things that would last 150 years deliberately cause players to start wondering if the Project was telling a big fib all along.

--
Michael B.

[ArmySGT.]

Some of the modules mention a mixture of noble gases as filling the environment to prevent deterioration due to oxidation.

[ArmySGT.]

Can't say for sure on meds...... on one hand, the absolute darkness, 55 degree temp (its always 55 below 20 feet), and the nitrogen environment is perfect for storing anything. On the other hand, if it is the chemicals breaking down themselves because they react to one another?

GM, call. However, I would rule these are good. After all the Project buried some of the caches and bolt holes 20 years prior to the event and expected a 3-5 year wait after the war before activating.

[stormlion1]

Not sure about meds, but I can speak of old tires pretty well as I spent a few years rebuilding classical cars with my dad, including looking for original 1930 Plymoth (I think they were Plymoth) era tires at one point. About every set of original tires I ran across they had suffered horribly due to time and neglect until I ran across a set of eight in Texas. Drove down to look at them as the pics I was sent looked good to discover these old tires had been stored in crates filled with gun grease. After cleaning them up, they were exactly like new and had next to no problems at all so I think if they were stored properly tires could still be good after a 150 year gap. But tires that aren't cared for will begin to fall apart but not fast. Underground in a dry enviroment they might be good, but would I want to trust my vehichle with them? That's the other question. Next time I see my old man I will ask him the question.

[kato13]

I've always consider tires to be a problem for the project long term.

Short term I agree with the posters here that some method might have been determined for long term storage. They may only expect the team to sleep for 5 years but they expect the vehicles to have a much longer lifespan and tires (esp on rough terrain found after the war) would need to be replaced quite often.

Since a vehicle without a tire is pretty useless, what can the project do to mitigate a long term tire issue.

I had the following thoughts

1) Reengineering all tires. Increase the durability perhaps by adding an internal runflat support and using much more durable materials.

2) Some sort of modular tires. Perhaps tires with a tough but flexible core and replaceable treads

3) Standardizing the tires as few rim configurations as possible or allowing for flexibility in attachment points.

I did some research on the number of different tires used by the US millitary and the number was staggering. (Edit I found the PDF the list is like 35 pages long) I know the canon game has only a few different vehicle systems but some type of generic flexible tire concept could streamline logistics and perhaps keep more prewar vehicles moving with project replacement tires (assuming the project worked as planned)


Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by kato13

I've always consider tires to be a problem for the project long term.

Short term I agree with the posters here that some method might have been determined for long term storage. They may only expect the team to sleep for 5 years but they expect the vehicles to have a much longer lifespan and tires (esp on rough terrain found after the war) would need to be replaced quite often.

Since a vehicle without a tire is pretty useless, what can the project do to mitigate a long term tire issue.

I had the following thoughts

1) Reengineering all tires. Increase the durability perhaps by adding an internal runflat support and using much more durable materials.

2) Some sort of modular tires. Perhaps tires with a tough but flexible core and replaceable treads

3) Standardizing the tires as few rim configurations as possible or allowing for flexibility in attachment points.

I did some research on the number of different tires used by the US millitary and the number was staggering. I know the canon game has only a few different vehicle systems but some type of generic flexible tire concept could streamline logistics and perhaps keep more prewar vehicles moving with project replacement tires (assuming the project worked as planned)


Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Another Poster reminded us the 5ton truck is the donor for many of the parts and assemblies for the V-150. Tires, rims, drive train, transmission, axles, steering box, probably more.

The M8 Greyhound had liquid rubber (so I have read) that would fill in bullet holes.

Currently as an option on Skid steers the tire can be filled with a foaming compound that hardens and fills the volume. The tire is then "air free" and punctures no longer matter.

So a combination of filling the tire void with a hard foam core replacement, and a chemical mix that is tougher wearing.

How about a vulcanizing system at a regional support base? A tire grinder chews up any tires civilian, commercial, or military and under heat melts them down. This molten mix is injected into a form and new tires made.

Thus, the project could reclaim tires, and make new tires for Project vehicles and probably common tires for commercial tractor trailers and common car sizes to get police, fire trucks, and ambulances back on the road.

[Gelrir]

Rubber tires are very difficult to re-manufacture into 'new' tires, without waving another Morrow Industries Magic Wand. It'd be easier to just stash a spare tire of some sort in each cache, and thousands more in various depots. Or even just dig a hole, line it with something to keep water and stuff out, fill it with tires, and cover -- not even much of a security risk if discovered. Store enough tires so that by the time you run out of tires, you've probably run out of armored car, too! Have a lot of patch kits on hand.

Various run-flat systems existed for the "Classic" era, and were standard on most of the Cadillac-Gage armored cars: either foam-filling, or solid rubber "doughnuts" mounted inside the regular, pneumatic tire. Neither type are meant to make the tire immune to holes -- rather, they allow you to drive around for some distance.

Oooh, an exciting article about American military tires during WW2:

http://www.usarmymodels.com/ARTICLES/Tires/tires.html

And I think this is the Commando Special tire:

http://www.stausaonline.com/military/commander.html

In any case, notice the deep rubber.

Oh, and there are a couple of big piles of used tires; one is in Colorado, and the other in northern Mexico (near Ciudad Juarez, I think).

If you're running a super-modern campaign, maybe think about airless tires:

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/bull...-go-flat/14406

http://www.pavementsucks.com/board/t...-Airless-Tires

--
Michael B.

[nuke11]

Originally Posted by Gelrir

And I think this is the Commando Special tire:

http://www.stausaonline.com/military/commander.html

--
Michael B.

Yes that is the original Commando tire used by Cadillac Gage. The tire was originally produced by a company called "Commander Tires" before they went out of business in the late 1990's. I have the details of the tire around here somewhere as well.

Most users of the Commando have switch out the hubs and replaced these with the Michelin XML, XZL or the XL.

Gary.

[stormlion1]

Did some checking and Dry Rot is a environmental condition event, if stored in a dry, cool place-like a Bolt Hole they could probably survive some time, maybe even 150 years. But if stored in a wet, or a hot humid environment there going to start to dry rot very quickly. Which makes long term use of tired vehicle's a problem in the South West and the North West as vehicles up there if let sit, and not maintained will soon lose there tires, and not only that any other rubber items inside, like hoses and wire covers.
In many ways, the fact that each team is supposed to be somewhat self sufficient might be a death knell for there Commando's, lacking a supply of spare parts for there vehicle's or even a central area to go for basic repairs or replacement of parts and equipment. Might not be a major problem if they were supposed to wake up only a few years of going under, but a 150 year gap will cause issues. In many ways this is a perfect way to separate a team from there armor support, the very fact that replacement tires, hoses, and wire insulation will wear out in the wrong environment and spare parts aren't readily available.
Maybe the Morrow Project had set up regional repair depots for this problem?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

Maybe the Morrow Project had set up regional repair depots for this problem?

I think they have. It is just up to a Team to locate one, wake the operators, and get it active.

Maybe an engineering Team and the Team Leader has a few clues like Desert Search?

[gamerguy]

Tires are a mix of many components and compounds. A portion is the elastomer, the balance is the cords or 'bones'. Modern tires use a wide variety of materials in the mix.

Even if you could reclaim the elastomer how are you going to source the fabric of the carcass you will be molding the new tire to? Even basic tires are made of synthetic cords with steel belts under the tread area. Your best approach would be to use cotton fabric belts and a heavier material to form the belts. But you will lose a lot of durability and life span compared to modern tires.

My understanding is every tire must have some natural rubber in the elastomer mix. How are you going to source that?

I read a book a few years back about the immediate aftermath of WWIII. It concerned a group of people escaping DC on a sail boat and their journey to the eventual tip of South America and for a couple beyond. In addition to the usual bad guy suspects was the entire continent of South America. As the boat passed Brazil it was attacked. Partially out of fear of carrying a plague from the north and partially out of retaliation for starting TEOTWAWKI. How willing would these same people (or their descendants) be to trade with us Northerners in the far future? What would we have to trade with?

The same goes for wiring, medical gloves, anything which would need natural rubber. Now, not to say some enterprising university or other organization couldn't have a greenhouse with a bunch of rubber trees somewhere. But I don't know the biology of that kind of set up.

In my opinion electrical and electronic apparatus would either be few and far between or not at all. You can make steam powered generators and insulate the power lines with cloth and the windings of the generators and motors with varnish impregnated cloth. Anyone who has worked on pre WWII equipment has probably come across fabric insulated wiring. Also there are a lot of places where tires and wiring have been made in the past which may have avoided the big 'un. Getting supplies to sustain repairs let alone new manufacturing though will be the issue.

Of course many adventures could be staged around forming a trading organization designed to move raw materials around the world.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by gamerguy

My understanding is every tire must have some natural rubber in the elastomer mix. How are you going to source that?

One possibility for US sourced raw latex is dandelions. During WWII, the Germans researched using them with little success during the war. However recent research in Germany had produced a cultivar of dandelion that may be a viable commercial source of raw latex. A pilot project was started in association with Continental Tire to see if it scales.

[gamerguy]

Checked the link from Wikipedia. Interesting but very recent. Of course all the most up to date technology is used here but the concept could be very useful. Imagining a whole economy based on this, say around one of the surviving universities. Even basing it on more primitive technologies it should provide a great potential boost to the local economy which can then develop tire, wiring and other manufacturing in their locale. Thanks for the heads up.

[mmartin798]

Don't forget, the dandelions don't have to be variety that used recent tech to create. Game canon has many unusual mutated flora. It would not be a stretch to say there is a mutant species of dandelion whose stems are 10cm in diameter and grow 30-45cm tall that produces 200 ml of latex sap per bloom.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

Don't forget, the dandelions don't have to be variety that used recent tech to create. Game canon has many unusual mutated flora. It would not be a stretch to say there is a mutant species of dandelion whose stems are 10cm in diameter and grow 30-45cm tall that produces 200 ml of latex sap per bloom.

or that viciously expels the seeds like darts into anything larger than a rabbit using the poor creature as a host for the growing flower. Seeding far and wide as the creature travels to escape the pain and delirium of a growing plant draining them of fluids.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

or that viciously expels the seeds like darts into anything larger than a rabbit using the poor creature as a host for the growing flower. Seeding far and wide as the creature travels to escape the pain and delirium of a growing plant draining them of fluids.

I pity the people who are trying to farm such a stand, holding a wooden tower shield in one hand and a sickle in the other.

[Matt W]

In Texas, the likeliest source of rubber would be the Guayule shrub. It was (briefly) a commercial source of rubber in the early 20th century

This article may inspire some ideas
https://www.wired.com/2015/07/superp...bber-monopoly/

Let's suppose these fields of Guayole have a neighbour: a Morrow Project logistics base that's buried nearby. This base has extensive stores - but also has equipment necessary for manufacturing and remanufacturing rubber products

It might be an interesting scenario if someone (the Breeders?) discovered the details of a vast amount of "rubber plants" growing in Arizona. Bikers, Truckers and traders from Texas might also be very interested. Add rumours of a "lost cache of technology" and you have a race to find the place