Aviation weapon systems

[95th Rifleman]

In another thread we discussed Libyan-style truck mounted Aircraft rocket systems and the viability of static groundand mobile use of Aircraft cannon.

What about missle systems? With paticular regard to Sidewinders.

My group, sooner or later, will find an RAF forward operations base consisting of a small RAF Regiment garrison, 4 Harriers (grounded due to lack of fuel and spares). I have anticipated and planned for creative use of the SNEB rocket pods and the 30mm Aden canon pods. However they will come across a bandit outift utilising a pair of armed Gazelle scout helicopters and I know damn well they will want to utilise the Harrier's sidewinders.

First, would it be possible andhow would it best be done? I want to get a feel for it before the players get their grubby hands on things so I can anticipate problems and solutions beforehand.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

In another thread we discussed Libyan-style truck mounted Aircraft rocket systems and the viability of static groundand mobile use of Aircraft cannon.

What about missle systems? With paticular regard to Sidewinders.

My group, sooner or later, will find an RAF forward operations base consisting of a small RAF Regiment garrison, 4 Harriers (grounded due to lack of fuel and spares). I have anticipated and planned for creative use of the SNEB rocket pods and the 30mm Aden canon pods. However they will come across a bandit outift utilising a pair of armed Gazelle scout helicopters and I know damn well they will want to utilise the Harrier's sidewinders.

First, would it be possible andhow would it best be done? I want to get a feel for it before the players get their grubby hands on things so I can anticipate problems and solutions beforehand.

How long have the 'winders been sitting out? IIRC they have to have coolant put in before use (argon, I believe) so the seeker works. That aside...as long as you give them a high enough angle and the players have the "drop" on the enemy helos, it should be do-able. A Sidewinder is ultimately a Zuni rocket with steering fins and a seeker head that performs the steering.

[Medic]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 'winders will need some means to acquire the target and launch. The Harriers have those means built in, but if you wish to fire those missiles without the Harriers, you'd probably need some electronical engineering and parts stripped drom the planes to make it at all feasible. And it of course depends also on what model the missiles are (that being rear-, rear- and side-, or all-aspect).

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Medic

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 'winders will need some means to acquire the target and launch. The Harriers have those means built in, but if you wish to fire those missiles without the Harriers, you'd probably need some electronical engineering and parts stripped drom the planes to make it at all feasible. And it of course depends also on what model the missiles are (that being rear-, rear- and side-, or all-aspect).

All very true; the "Sidewinder Growl" is audible through pretty primitive gear as long as you know what contacts to wire up on the bus (cough cough so I'm told cough) but there's a lot of steps to get to that point (uncageing the seeker head, etc.)

95th, maybe you could have the players do business with a unit using a M-730A2 as a prime mover, casually mentioning it had been a full blown Chaparral unit until events made an AD vehicle simply unnecessary and "all of that electronic junk" had been stripped and left back at "base"...or something like that, just a thought.

[Webstral]

It seems to me that the rocket pods and guns would be more useful in 2000. There would be more bang for buck in terms of energy expended when mounting a rocket pod on the back of a truck. The rockets probably would end up being used in a direct fire mode, but that’s no big deal. What a way to clear some bunkers!

[95th Rifleman]

Given the PCs engineering (or lack thereof) skills I reckon any attempts to make the sidewinders work are just not feasible with what they will have to use. That being said the 30mm Aden pods will be more than enough to take on a Gazelle.

Thanks for the imput guys, my knowledge of missle sustems is a bit lacking, didn't realise that you couldn't just rig an AAM like you can with a TOW.

[Sanjuro]

I don't know whether this is genuine kit, but IIRC there is a scene in the film Wings of the Apache (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099575/) where a character takes a Stinger from a downed helo, and there is a kit in a compartment to convert it for shoulder-mounted use. Given that the Stinger is a MANPAD converted for Air-to-Air use this would seem possible.
Even if the ready-to-convert kit is not a real item, a downed helo might provide missiles that could be used with a launcher the PCs already have.
Admittedly a Stinger is not as cool as a Sidewinder, but the Sidewinder is over 3 metres long and weighs 85kg (according to Wikipedia, at least). Perhaps a Harrier cache could contain supplies of Argon to help recharge the seeker on a Stinger?

[manunancy]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

Given the PCs engineering (or lack thereof) skills I reckon any attempts to make the sidewinders work are just not feasible with what they will have to use. That being said the 30mm Aden pods will be more than enough to take on a Gazelle.

Thanks for the imput guys, my knowledge of missle sustems is a bit lacking, didn't realise that you couldn't just rig an AAM like you can with a TOW.

about anything that can hit a Gazelle is enough to bring it down. Quoting from a guy working with them, they've got 'armor proof against burst of laughter' (translated for the 'blindé contres éclats de rire' french original).

that's also an unstransaltable wordplay as in french 'éclat' means 'shrapnel', meaning the Gazelle isn't even armored against shrapnel.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro

I don't know whether this is genuine kit, but IIRC there is a scene in the film Wings of the Apache (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099575/)...

You might also want to search on the movie name Firebirds -- what the same movie was called in the US.

I don't know if such a setup exists, but I do know that firing a MANPADS SAM takes specific training and you can't just assemble a Stinger and expect to bring down a J-35 Draken (or whatever aircraft). A helicopter pilot, even a long-experienced and skilled CWO4 like Tommy Lee Jones was playing in the movie, couldn't expect to have a lot of success with a MANPADS SAM -- much less the relatively-green scout helo pilot that Sean Young was playing.

[Sanjuro]

The SAS tooks Stingers to the Falklands in '82- unfortunately the trooper who had been trained to use them (and to train others) went down in the Sea King crash, taking his manuals with him.
One of his colleagues had some initial luck (2 shots, 2 kills) from beginner's luck, then missed with the next 5 or so. In the movie scenario, perhaps TLJ had also been trained in the use of the kit? (I have it on board, I may as well learn to use it...)

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

You might also want to search on the movie name Firebirds -- what the same movie was called in the US.

I don't know if such a setup exists, but I do know that firing a MANPADS SAM takes specific training and you can't just assemble a Stinger and expect to bring down a J-35 Draken (or whatever aircraft). A helicopter pilot, even a long-experienced and skilled CWO4 like Tommy Lee Jones was playing in the movie, couldn't expect to have a lot of success with a MANPADS SAM -- much less the relatively-green scout helo pilot that Sean Young was playing.

Yes but his instructions to her were delivered in such a snappy "Only-Tommy-Lee-Jones-Can-Do-This" way that it was almost worth the admission price! (almost) "In the compartment you'll find a gripstock, seeker and launch rail." "A what?" "Thing that looks like a lunch box, thing that looks like a coffee can."