Canon Germany to RDF tank transfer

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

You sir, just made my day with that image.

Just read the senior officer's bit with Tommy Lee Jones' clipped, rapid-fire style in mind and the image is perfect

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Armor and the guns tubes would be the killer Webstral - armor on a tank only comes from certain specialized mills - like the one in Israel that I read got nuked to deny it to the Israelis. Ditto for gun tubes.

so while they might be able to make tracks or possibly engine parts, the armor and the main guns are goign to stop them cold.

Absolutely agreed. This may be why one only sees 35 tanks added to the rosters. The most-easily fixed tracks are the first ones to go back to the line. Mobility kills and breakdowns will be among them. The catastrophic kills won't be worth much, except as spare parts. It's possible that the maintenance units already were fabbing as many of the bottleneck parts as possible in 1998 and 1999, but they just couldn't keep up with the demand. Only with the hypothetical opening of a semi-proper facility could supply grow enough to pull a few tracks out of the salvage depots and put them back into line units.

RJ Panzer, your point about the Iranians is well-taken. I wonder, though, if they wouldn't turn their abilities to supporting vehicles already in use in-country.

[Olefin]

and the tubes could have come from Saudi stocks depending on the tank - they didnt just buy tanks but a lot of stores as well

and if you arent shooting the tanks then you have a lot of gun tubes that could be used for at least some of the tanks - I dont think they are all repairs

but keep in mind even if they did come from Europe they probably needed repairs anyway

see the raketenjagdpanzer earlier post about the state of tanks in Europe

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Just read the senior officer's bit with Tommy Lee Jones' clipped, rapid-fire style in mind and the image is perfect

Ok for that one I think we all can agree in your next gaming session you can find one operational vehicle of your choice

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Webstral

RJ Panzer, your point about the Iranians is well-taken. I wonder, though, if they wouldn't turn their abilities to supporting vehicles already in use in-country.

Oh that was meant more as a "as the 00s wear on" kind of thing; as the front stabilizes and US forces more-or-less hold the Soviets at bay across the greater Southwest Asia front (at least in Iran), they'd go to something like that. While the war was still hot though in 2000/2001, yeah, it'd be all support what's in the field, innovate much later...

But it does show that there are some pretty smart cookies in the jar over there, and in terms of keeping the Iranian and "guest" US Armed forces up and running they'd probably become experts at parts production - at least the lightweight stuff...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by olefin

ok for that one i think we all can agree in your next gaming session you can find one operational vehicle of your choice

Ohio class SSBN with armed VLSS!

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Olefin

and the tubes could have come from Saudi stocks depending on the tank - they didnt just buy tanks but a lot of stores as well

and if you arent shooting the tanks then you have a lot of gun tubes that could be used for at least some of the tanks - I dont think they are all repairs

but keep in mind even if they did come from Europe they probably needed repairs anyway

see the raketenjagdpanzer earlier post about the state of tanks in Europe

Chieftns used the 120mm rifled L11A5, the Americans used the 120mm smoothbore.

Now I'm not techie, but I think it's feasible to replace the Amrican guns with the Chieftens and getting ammo won't be a huge problem as the chieften is such a common tank in the middle east.

[Sanjuro]

a sort of inspirational spark for what the Iranians can do when motivated

I've been a passenger in Tehran traffic... and I have seen Iranians jaywalk in it. If that keeps up, in 200 years evolution is going to make the survivors' descendants like Superman!

[James1978]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

Another thing I'm thinking about is that the Saudis (and most of the southern, pro-west arab states) all relied heavily on the Chieften before some bought the Abrahms as a replacement.

That means allot of mothballed Chieftens just waiting to be sent, under the table, to the RDF.

Chieftain was never used by Saudi Arabia, but Iran, Jordan, Kuwait and Oman did use it.
- Jordan seems an unlikely source given their neighborhood, but you never know.
- Oman only had about 27.
- Kuwait bought 165.
- Jordan had a total of 350.
The British 120mm gun was rifled, so ammo wasn't compatible with the smooth-bore 120mm gun used by the M1A1/A2. I'm not sure what kind of ammo stocks Kuwait of Oman would have by 2000/2001. Though the Shah had been big on building up Iran to be self-sufficient in some munitions, so I don't see why they couldn't have some capacity to manufacture some rifled 120mm and 105mm tank ammo in limited quantities.


AMX-30 was used by Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE.

M60 was used by Iran, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Oman, Jordan, and Egypt.

M1A1 used by Egypt. M1A2 used by Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Though if you play a timeline where GW1 never happened, maybe not Kuwait who may have just bought more Yugoslav M84s.

The UAE may have some LeClerc tanks. They first bought them in 1995,

Saudi Arabia is also a potential source for Bradley IFVs.

[95th Rifleman]

My bad

For some reason I always mix up Jordan and Saudi

[Panther Al]

You know, saying the Saudi's slipped some parts (And yes, they have a mountain of parts from road wheels, engines and trannies, to breeches and tubes sitting in warehouses spread out all over the middle of nowhere) and the occasional full up track would make a lot of sense in how it seems that with all the heavy fighting in the Middle East, so much stuff is still in great shape. With the intel saying a new push is in the card in the summer of 2001, it would be in the interests of the Saudi's to make sure that the RDF gets a 'accidental' resupply that fills all the dreams of the poor old S4's trying to make due with 2x4's and #8 wire. If in the buildup to the war they purchase the M1 series, and they bought spares and ammo on the scale they did in the real world, the amount of stuff that is technically available - and unnuked - is insane.

[James1978]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

If in the buildup to the war they purchase the M1 series, and they bought spares and ammo on the scale they did in the real world, the amount of stuff that is technically available - and unnuked - is insane.

If the tech reps who maintained all the equipment stuck around and survived, CENTCOM could probably man a decent armored vehicle overhaul/repair depot back in Saudi. It's not Anniston, but it's something.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by James1978

If the tech reps who maintained all the equipment stuck around and survived, CENTCOM could probably man a decent armored vehicle overhaul/repair depot back in Saudi. It's not Anniston, but it's something.

I like this idea a lot.

Same goes for still-flying a/c - the Saudis already had a fleet of F15's they needed to maintain, for example.

[Legbreaker]

With 6,000 coming from Europe and arriving a few weeks before January, how many of those are techs and what sort of effect is that sudden influx of skilled labour going to have on the vehicles and equipment waiting for repair? That alone can account for an increase in available AFVs.
The moment the Soviets and Iranians got word of the reinforcements, you can bet they'd use their available air and sea assets to try and put a hole in their numbers. Fortunately for the US, the southern, sea route leaves the transports well out of range of the enemy for most of the journey, and places CENTCOM's assets between them and the Russians.
The risk to the Soviets and their allies isn't just from added infantry, but an overall increase in ability for their enemy.

Of those 6,000, there may be a few Brits or even French too - those governments/Generals taking advantage of the convoy to shift around a few specialists. Numbers wouldn't be large though - few dozen, maybe a hundred or so. Enough that a player may be able to make a case for their PC to make the trip with official sanction.

[Louied]

How plausible is this....
IMC I had the smaller Gulf States side with the US/UK (FWIW I have a slightly larger MEFF with one Armd Bde, one Abn Bde, one Cdo Bde, one Gurkha Bde)
Saudi's stay out of it and eventually "invite" the French in to help them keep Neutral. The French in turn convince the Saudi's to divest themselves of all their non-French made equipment, promising that they would provide French made equipment in return. The French then "donate" this equipment (plus ammo) to CENTCOM (the French definitely DO NOT want the Soviets controlling any oil). However these shipments to the Saudi Military keep getting mysteriously held up. So by 2000 the French have full control of Saudi and her oilfields while the Saudi Military is essentially de-fanged of any heavy equipment.

I also was wondering if Egyptian factories were producing their M1's or were they just putting them together from kits sent over from the US. If they were producing them would it have been more cost effective to have CENTCOM
purchase them from Egypt and then have the US shipping over uparmour kits to maintinence units in Theater to add-on ?

[Olefin]

The only problem is that the French dont have that kind of influence in Saudi yet - its gettng there but the US is still the top dog there - now Kuwait is a different situation but Saudi is still mainly American influence.

Now let the war end and the Soviets get kicked out of Iran and things will change.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Louied

How plausible is this....
IMC I had the smaller Gulf States side with the US/UK (FWIW I have a slightly larger MEFF with one Armd Bde, one Abn Bde, one Cdo Bde, one Gurkha Bde)
Saudi's stay out of it and eventually "invite" the French in to help them keep Neutral. The French in turn convince the Saudi's to divest themselves of all their non-French made equipment, promising that they would provide French made equipment in return. The French then "donate" this equipment (plus ammo) to CENTCOM (the French definitely DO NOT want the Soviets controlling any oil). However these shipments to the Saudi Military keep getting mysteriously held up. So by 2000 the French have full control of Saudi and her oilfields while the Saudi Military is essentially de-fanged of any heavy equipment.

I also was wondering if Egyptian factories were producing their M1's or were they just putting them together from kits sent over from the US. If they were producing them would it have been more cost effective to have CENTCOM
purchase them from Egypt and then have the US shipping over uparmour kits to maintinence units in Theater to add-on ?

Kits; IIRC the Egyptians however have a "mostly-built-here" tank plant (engines and armor are shipped to them, all else is license-built).

[Olefin]

Remember that the only real tank factory in the Middle East is the one in Israel - the one making the Merkava - where they make it from scratch. The industrial base just isnt there, even today, to be able to make their own modern tanks.

A lot of expertise just isnt there - for instance Saudi Arabia lacks facilities to do aluminum armor welding so things like Bradleys and M109's are just beyond their capabilities.

[Raellus]

I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere (in an Osprey book, I think), that Iraq was liscence-building its own T-72s (a basic Soviet/Russian export version).

@Louied: Since you asked for feedback... I don't think any country not in desperate straits would willingly give up heavy weaponry like MBTs based on a promise of future military aid, especially during wartime. The French really couldn't guarantee that they could get their stuff to the Saudis safely with the war at sea (the Med sounds pretty chaotic and Soviet commerce raiders would certainly be active around Cape of Good Hope) so such a deal would be a huge gamble on the part of the Saudis. Heck, such a proposition could easily be seen as a ploy to get the Saudis to drop their guard and allow the French to waltz in and take direct control of the oil facilities.

[Matt Wiser]

Iraq was building the T-72, in kit form. They were known as the "Lion of Babylon" tanks.

The idea of the Saudis buying a lot more tanks and spare parts than they really needed is very plausible and very likely, IMHO. IMI in Israel may still be up and running on a limited basis, and they'd be a source for 120-mm main gun rounds, among other things. In our CSU Fresno group, we didn't go home, but went via the Med to Israel, and then to CENTCOM. Before going through Jordan and Iraq to Iran, IMI refurbished all our vehicles. Not to brand-new specs, mind you, but a good enough job nevertheless.

[Panther Al]

The idea that the Saudi's would stockpile stuff by the shipload during a cold war than never cooled down is very reasonable. Even with the drawdowns with the Cold War IRL, I've seen some of the stockpiles they have tucked away in the oddest places. The Kuwaiti's are almost as bad.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Before going through Jordan and Iraq to Iran, IMI refurbished all our vehicles. Not to brand-new specs, mind you, but a good enough job nevertheless.

What did you pay them with, and how did you stop the Israelis simply requisitioning them? I'm assuming it was just a small group and not a battalion plus.
I can't imagine the Israelis doing anything out of the goodness of their hearts, and with the chaos surrounding them on almost all sides, they wouldn't be about to pass up a chance to "acquire" more gear on the cheap.

[Matt Wiser]

Simple: some of the proceeds from our Kelly's Heroes type operation. A few hundred gold bars paid the bill for that-and R&R in Tel Aviv....As for numbers, well, when you procure (read: hijack) two Frosch-class LSTs-and bribe the crews with some gold bars...we had the carrying capacity to take our group where we wanted to go, and our vehicles and equipment, too. We didn't have that many, but spread them out on both ships. Four M-1A1s, a T-72, a pair apiece of Bradleys and M-113s, an MTLB, four Hummers, a HEMITT cargo truck with the still-but most of our fuel was "liberated"...., and the prize: a Ural 375 truck with the gold. The amount of gold was lifted from the movie: 14,000 bars.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Simple: some of the proceeds from our Kelly's Heroes type operation. A few hundred gold bars paid the bill for that-and R&R in Tel Aviv....As for numbers, well, when you procure (read: hijack) two Frosch-class LSTs-and bribe the crews with some gold bars...we had the carrying capacity to take our group where we wanted to go, and our vehicles and equipment, too. We didn't have that many, but spread them out on both ships. Four M-1A1s, a T-72, a pair apiece of Bradleys and M-113s, an MTLB, four Hummers, a HEMITT cargo truck with the still-but most of our fuel was "liberated"...., and the prize: a Ural 375 truck with the gold. The amount of gold was lifted from the movie: 14,000 bars.

14,000 bars - ok that would pay for it for sure!

[Legbreaker]

If I was the Israelis, I'd be inclined to just take it all.
"So you've got five worn out tanks and a few APCs..."
"What are you going to do about the company of Merkava 3's, battery of 105's, and battalion of infantry we've got surrounding you?"

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

If I was the Israelis, I'd be inclined to just take it all.
"So you've got five worn out tanks and a few APCs..."
"What are you going to do about the company of Merkava 3's, battery of 105's, and battalion of infantry we've got surrounding you?"

Also perhaps "offer" them the "opportunity" to stay as "guests" of the Israeli Defense Force.

[James Langham]

Quick thought, how much does all that gold weigh?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Quick thought, how much does all that gold weigh?

From Wiki:

The standard gold bar held and traded internationally by central banks and bullion dealers is the Good Delivery bar with a 400 Troy Ounces nominal weight. However, its precise gold content is permitted to vary between 350 oz and 430 oz. The minimum purity required is 99.5% gold.

One troy ounce is equivalent to 31.1034768 grams.

Therefore, an average bar of 400 oz is 12.44 kgs.
14,000 bars is a massive 174.17947 metric tonnes!

A Ural 375 has a cargo capacity of 9,920 lb or 4.5 tonnes. Just a small shortfall there I think....

If the limiting factor was the 4,500 kilogram capacity of the truck, each bar would be just 320 grams, or 0.7 lbs

4,500 kilograms of gold at today's value is worth US$242,246,565.00 - about a quarter of a BILLION US dollars!!!
174.17947 tonnes is an astounding US$9,376,528,511.34 - isn't that approaching the US national debt?

[James Langham]

Nobody ever thinks how much gold weighs, best examples are Die Hard 3 and Rome. Must rewatch Kelly's Heroes to see if they make the same mistake.

And yes paper money can be almost as bad (and is bulkier...)

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

From Wiki:

One troy ounce is equivalent to 31.1034768 grams.

Therefore, an average bar of 400 oz is 12.44 kgs.
14,000 bars is a massive 174.17947 metric tonnes!

A Ural 375 has a cargo capacity of 9,920 lb or 4.5 tonnes. Just a small shortfall there I think....

If the limiting factor was the 4,500 kilogram capacity of the truck, each bar would be just 320 grams, or 0.7 lbs

4,500 kilograms of gold at today's value is worth US$242,246,565.00 - about a quarter of a BILLION US dollars!!!
174.17947 tonnes is an astounding US$9,376,528,511.34 - isn't that approaching the US national debt?

[Bullet Magnet]

As I recall, there was a mention in Kelly's Heroes that the total cash value of the gold was $16 million. If someone were able to find the price of gold circa 1944, we could get a reasonable figure as to the actual weight of gold they heisted.