The internet and misc computers -- what would survice?

[pmulcahy11b]

I know that it's tempting to simply say "It's all gone," but many types of military aircraft are EMP hardened, many military facilities, and many military computers in those facilities may be properly hardened. In addition, I will let slip that some military vehicles in command posts are EMP hardened, as are both computer and commo links to lower and higher echelons. As some have pointed out on this board; it's not even hard to do.

By T2K canon, the military and Milgov have commo links that may even allow sporadic commo links to the Middle East, Europe, Australia, and maybe even important places like Diego Garcia. Computer links may also be possible using those commo links. It just depends of the amount of charged particles in the atmosphere at the time of the commo attempt and the thickness of the ionosphere (which could be thickened by the bursting of liberal amounts of nukes).

As far as the internet, I think its possible that ARPAnet might have survived. That was why it was originally built.

[Medic]

There's an interesting story related to the topic from the late '80ies, just prior to the Unification of the Two Germanies.

A Warsaw Pact pilot (I think he was East German) defected to West by
flying his MiG-29 (which happened to be the ELINT-version of the said plane) in to West Germany. Now, this provided the NATO with an opportunity, but also was certain to cause trouble. The pilot they could keep without any major consequences, but the plane was a wholly different case. Realizing they would have to return the plane to the Pact shortly,the NATO intelligence dismantled and then rebuilt the plane in two days, returning it to the Pact before the deadline.

What they discovered, much to their surprise was that while the Western planes used the standard circuit boards, the said plane had vacuum tubes in their stead, which made it impervious to EMP...

[James Langham]

I think the biggest problem for communications would be reliability - "yes sir , I can get a message through - sometimes." For data communications corruption would be an even worse problem. This will result in essential communications being prioritized and routine traffic reduced. Add freak atmospherics to give echoes from elsewhere and radio duty could be a frustrating business, computer communications (assuming you can connect via phone lines) would possibly be worse. And as for security...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Anything inside a fully-armored vehicle, not touching the hull, would probably survive due to the vehicle being basically a faraday cage.

Anyone stateside with a radio, TV, computer, etc. inside a steel shed with a grounding post, same thing. Or even a small radio (or laptop!) inside a cookie tin resting on a piece of paraffin, wood, foam-rubber etc. or otherwise insulated from the rest of the metal box.

There is a mention in Armies of the Night that an abandoned computer store has a few boxed-up, functional PCs in its back room, so we can assume the building's structure acted as a Faraday shield.

Believe it or not, if you tightly wrap a box (any material will do) in Cat-5 or 6 cable, it is EMP-shielded. Cat-5 cable insulation is designed to dampen electronic crosstalk, hence emission shielding.

Panasonic/Matsushita began making Toughbook laptops in 1991; however, as many computer parts come from Japan and Taiwan both of which are on China's doorstep, once the war in the Far East went hot I can imagine those becoming prohibitively expensive for anyone other than the federal Government; few if any would have made it into municipalities, and any that still exist post-1997 are either in the hands of local governments who don't know what to do with them or are in the hands of CivGov or MilGov.

I'd wager probably 99% or thereabouts of any "home" PCs are gone for good.

Any vehicles (M557, ships at port, etc.) that survived and have computers on board are invaluable.

Most data centers or backup data centers are EMP-hardened; when I worked for Star Systems, our fallback was Sungard in Philly but others exist (we later changed to a backup DC in Florida, one designed to survive 200mph winds, with two weeks of internal power at max capacity - all companies onboard and running full speed). So I think a good portion of commercial/enterprise computing would survive. But how would you get the people there to operate it? I know I wouldn't really be much interested in going in to work on Nov 25 1997 in the T2k universe truth be told.

The internet would of course survive - that's what its designed for. University data centers, depending on where they were, would keep going.

There's a ton of VAX/VMS machines in campus basements that would get dusted off and pressed back into service.

The Soviets would have these resources as well, just not as many. After the end of the cold war it was discovered that the Soviets had copies a few mini-frame and mainframe designs and where they could not accurately duplicate the precise parts, instead clean-room engineered analog copies. So you'd have some components made up of TTL logic and hand-wire-wrapped components and whatnot. Those would be particularly robust, although the Soviets would have exponentially fewer of them.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Medic

There's an interesting story related to the topic from the late '80ies, just prior to the Unification of the Two Germanies.

A Warsaw Pact pilot (I think he was East German) defected to West by
flying his MiG-29 (which happened to be the ELINT-version of the said plane) in to West Germany. Now, this provided the NATO with an opportunity, but also was certain to cause trouble. The pilot they could keep without any major consequences, but the plane was a wholly different case. Realizing they would have to return the plane to the Pact shortly,the NATO intelligence dismantled and then rebuilt the plane in two days, returning it to the Pact before the deadline.

What they discovered, much to their surprise was that while the Western planes used the standard circuit boards, the said plane had vacuum tubes in their stead, which made it impervious to EMP...

They found similar things when Belenko (?) defected in his MiG-25. Lots of vacuum tubes and such (though the radar was powerful enough to kill a rabbit at 100 feet if it was turned on on the ground). Titanium only on the nose and the leading edges of the wings, control surfaces, and air intakes. Their biggest surprise was the engines -- yes, they could propel the MiG-25 to Mach 3.2, but they could sustain that speed for only about 15 minutes -- and after that, you are either deadstick or running on very coughy engines.

We kept the MiG-25 for two weeks. In that time, an army of American, British, Japanese, and French technicians pored over every detail. Then we boxed it up and sent back to the Soviet Union.

[Legbreaker]

While electronics may survive a single blast with "accidental" shielding, the problem is many items would have been subjected to dozens, even hundreds of EMP bursts. By surviving the first EMP burst, the owners may have been lulled into a false sense of security and fail to properly prepare for following bursts.

So yes, it's probable some survived due to being shielded, or just plain blind luck, but it would seem much of the necessary infrastructure will take a while to rebuild. In the meantime, I'm with James - elements still exist, but service will be patchy at best and subject to frequent outages for days, weeks, even months at a time.

...at least until somebody noticed they can't find their favourite porn sites anymore and the Nigerians can't find any gullible idiots to scam.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Actually any Computer that is well behind a good surge protector will most likely be OK, the main issue would be power. EMP really would damage the power grid, wiping out allot of transformers. Heck allot of vehicles would be OK too, might need to bypass or replace some minor components to get them in peak operating condition.

The effects of EMP have been greatly over exaggerated back in the day and of coarse with the help of Hollywood.

Of coarse a nearby Nuclear blast will overwhelm all nearby electronic devices, even if they were well protected from the effects of emp they would have other issues to worry about, such as the metallic parts being radioactive if they survived the thermal or blast effects.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

While electronics may survive a single blast with "accidental" shielding, the problem is many items would have been subjected to dozens, even hundreds of EMP bursts. By surviving the first EMP burst, the owners may have been lulled into a false sense of security and fail to properly prepare for following bursts.

So yes, it's probable some survived due to being shielded, or just plain blind luck, but it would seem much of the necessary infrastructure will take a while to rebuild. In the meantime, I'm with James - elements still exist, but service will be patchy at best and subject to frequent outages for days, weeks, even months at a time.

...at least until somebody noticed they can't find their favourite porn sites anymore and the Nigerians can't find any gullible idiots to scam.

One thing to remember is that emp from a nuclear weapon is not as effective the further you get away from it, so anything that is within the effect of dozens let allone hundreds hundreds of blasts has most likely be contaminated
or destroyed.

A nuclear Blast in Omaha may or may not effect computers in Lincoln (50 miles away) depending on size of blast and if the computer in question is protected by surge protector. It definitely will not effect on in Grand island. Now multiple upper stratosphere bursts will cover a large area, those this will mess the power grid the worst, and any unprotected electronic device will be interrupted or messed up at least temporarily, vehicles may or may not still be operable depending on type of fuel system. (electronic fuel injection would most likely be out of service, while old carburetor systems will still work)

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Off the cuff, I would say use this for computers:

(Note availability scores are for Stateside only, with a remote possibility for Soviet held territories far from the front-lines)

COMPUTER, DESKTOP (FUNCTIONAL)
R/- Cost $1000
A PC (1% chance Macintosh) running DOS or Windows, intact. Requires power source.

COMPUTER, LAPTOP (FUNCTIONAL)
R/- Cost $5000 (yes that seems steep, but it is in line with demand and retail cost in 1995-1997)
A portable laptop/computer (1% chance Macintosh) running DOS or Windows. Requires power source to charge battery, good for 1d6 hours.

COMPUTER, MAINFRAME (FUNCTIONAL)
S/R Cost $25000
VAX/VMS, Data General, IBM, etc. running UNIX. Requires power source.

COMPUTER, MINI- (FUNCTIONAL)
R/- Cost $15000
PDP11/75, SGI, IBM PowerStation running UNIX, IRIX, or OS/2. Requires power source.

COMPUTER (ANY) (NON-FUNCTIONAL)
S/R - Cost $150
Any number of systems can be found in the ruins of universities, data centers, banks, office complexes, factories, etc. in the west. Far less prevalent in the East. These systems were rendered inoperable by EMP effects or exposure to elements (rain, dust, cold etc.). However, it is possible with an ELC skill check that part(s) may be salvageable or if many of the same type (at GM discretion) are found, that a working system may be cobbled together (for example, a laptop with a dead screen, keyboard and input devices may still be connected to an external monitor, mouse and keyboard and used as a desktop, although this obviously limits its portability).

As to what characters might do with it/them, that is the question. The internet (DARPA/ARPANet) was designed to operate in the same environment laid out in Twilight:2000, so it is almost certainly still operational, but who controls it? CivGov? MilGov? Rogue military units? New America? It's impossible to say. Multiple redundancies in the network, however, should provide some CONUS internet connectivity - but security is always in question. DES-encrypted messages are the only way to be sure two units aren't compromised.

What we generally think of as "the web" was nowhere near as prevalent in 1997 (for most folks) as it is today. Pervasive computing just didn't exist. A "Smart" phone was one that could hold 10-20 phone numbers and play GO on its 2" amber LCD screen. So you're not going to be using Google to ask "HOW DO I DISARM UNEXPLODED NUKE" in T2k! Skype and like tools do not exist, nor does a reliable video chatting system of any kind (unless you're fortunate enough to have a pair of SGI Indigo systems at either end of your communication network).

Beyond frittering around with desktop apps, all communication will be in text via emails or Usenet postings, the latter probably very VERY hard to promulgate with a fragmented and slow internet, so it will come to IRC (Internet Relay Chat) or emails. DDoS attacks from belligerent parties (MilGov against CivGov, vice-versa and New America against all) will be commonplace; as servers are brought online, they will find themselves the target of hostile ping-flooding at the very least, over time.

Edit to say: Also, computers are (then, and today) fragile things. The environments of Twilight:2000 are not conducive to the health and well-being of computers (especially mainframes which require power distribution units and MASSIVE air conditioning at 60-70F to stay operational for long periods of time). Getting time on an operational system is in and of itself an expensive and chancy prospect; most municipalities will be using their tiny number of operational systems for disaster relief coordination, supply inventory, etc. and "Hey I just wanna send an email" will likely be a no-go unless the party or character can provide a service to the person(s) controlling the computer in question (if it even has an internet connection, something I'd place at 1% chance for a "private" system (or New America-controlled system), 5% for a local government, 6% to 10% for a MilGov or CivGov computer. Also, this connectivity will have to be direct-connect: the phone exchange system (most everyone was on dialup in 1997) is in ruins.

...

Now, regarding the operational state of computers in Twilight:2000?

I think the chief thing to remember about T2k is that it's a fantasy game. There's no way SIOP would be activated and leave anything but ashes on this earth. Certainly not armies as remotely "intact" as they are in the game. Hellfires, TOWs, Tankbreaker nee Javelin missiles? Yeah, all packed full of computery goodness. None of those working. Abrams' ballistic computer? Solid state, baby (although even in a "misery tourism" version of T2k, you could make the allowance that vehicles' hulls make like a Faraday cage).

It's clear the authors wanted to completely jack up the West, and to do so they needed "magic" EMP (what was the line? "Far worse than anyone predicted"?) that somehow left high-tech warfighting gear intact, right along with 90% of the US' population dead and belligerent middle eastern nations becoming garden spots due to ecological patterns being shifted due to the war - and that's fine, I mean, my game of choice is AD&D where men in robes and pointy hats lob little burning BBs of bat guano that explode into 33,000 square feet (or yards, outside) of fire hot enough to cause gold to melt. Also, elves and dragons. So I recognize that a game is a game and just go with it in terms of canon.

I have my own game/campaign world ideas that are equally untenable (again, that involve SIOP being carried out yet the world not being a burned out husk) but don't involve magic EMP leaving military computers running and civvie computers all to a one dead.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

What we generally think of as "the web" was nowhere near as prevalent in 1997 (for most folks) as it is today. Pervasive computing just didn't exist. A "Smart" phone was one that could hold 10-20 phone numbers and play GO on its 2" amber LCD screen.

Exactly right and a point which applies to ALL technology, not just computers and communications. In the past 15-20 years, which is as long as some players of T2K can remember, there's been some pretty damn substantial leaps forward with technology. How many people born after 1990 can remember a time before virtually everyone had a pocket sized (or smaller) phone on them at all times? Or had to actually use a paper book to find somebodies phone number, or for that matter even remember somebody elses phone number (or even their own)!?

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Also, computers are (then, and today) fragile things. The environments of Twilight:2000 are not conducive to the health and well-being of computers (especially mainframes which require power distribution units and MASSIVE air conditioning at 60-70F to stay operational for long periods of time).

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make too. Just because EMP doesn't fry a circuit board doesn't mean something else didn't damage or destroy it. A hungry mob with a box of matches can do just as much damage as a small nuke to infrastructure. A band of crazy anti-technology nuts going to town with hammers doesn't do a lot of good to a computer system either.

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Also, this connectivity will have to be direct-connect: the phone exchange system (most everyone was on dialup in 1997) is in ruins.

Again, my point exactly. Even if only a few cables are cut, service is GONE. You only have to look at real life for examples - a storm wipes out a bridge taking the cables with it, a lightning strike burns out an electricity substation, a heavy snowfall brings down power lines and their supporting towers (as happened a few years back in Canada I think) and so on, and so on, and so on. Twilight is all those disasters and more on a global scale.

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I think the chief thing to remember about T2k is that it's a fantasy game.

Yep, another point often forgotten in the search for "realism". It's just a game. Some of the background doesn't fit with reality, some of it is less than reality, some of it more.

Does a movie or television show have to be perfectly in line with reality to be enjoyable? Of course not, otherwise none of the James Bond movies for example would ever have seen the light of the cinema screen. Twilight is the same concept - near enough to be believable.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make too. Just because EMP doesn't fry a circuit board doesn't mean something else didn't damage or destroy it. A hungry mob with a box of matches can do just as much damage as a small nuke to infrastructure. A band of crazy anti-technology nuts going to town with hammers doesn't do a lot of good to a computer system either.

Yeah; also there's issues of maintenance. The MTBF on computer parts can be years...or minutes. I've gotten ten PCs from a vendor before and had to send back two or three due to undiagnosable hardware-level failures, despite every last one of them being identical and all passed the vendor's QA. A T2k-level disaster would exacerbate that a hundred or thousand-fold.

Still, I think bigger cities that were unaffected will have a few computers running - some more robust IBM 5150s (the original "IBM PC") slaved to a PDP-11/75 or other mainframe just to manage things as I'd mentioned.

However, another HUGE factor is the personnel. You have a die-off of some older IBM engineers and there's a LOT of companies using S390s for various tasks who will literally be absolutely stuck. The "undocumented features/issues" of the IBM systems I've used in the past would fill volumes. However, the "old IBM guys" knew what the work-arounds were. Now take their experience and expertise out of the picture. So we get a data-center's generator working again, on Alcohol, establish a reliable enough fuel supply, get people in who can work the local PCs as terminals, and fire back up our hospital or bank mainframe and...suddenly an issue arises that hours or even days of studying the manufacturer's manuals and prior event documentation do not even come close to fixing. That 60 year old guy on his second pacemaker and circling the drain waiting for retirement? Yeah he died from the flu, and he was the only one who knew the correct order in which to IPL the segments so the system would run for more than ten minutes without abending...

Again, my point exactly. Even if only a few cables are cut, service is GONE. You only have to look at real life for examples - a storm wipes out a bridge taking the cables with it, a lightning strike burns out an electricity substation, a heavy snowfall brings down power lines and their supporting towers (as happened a few years back in Canada I think) and so on, and so on, and so on. Twilight is all those disasters and more on a global scale.

For the "average person" wanting phone or computer connectivity beyond local, yeah, they're hosed. Fortunately the massive redundancies of the internet will absorb a lot of that. It'll be a lot slower though, rest assured.

Yep, another point often forgotten in the search for "realism". It's just a game. Some of the background doesn't fit with reality, some of it is less than reality, some of it more.

Does a movie or television show have to be perfectly in line with reality to be enjoyable? Of course not, otherwise none of the James Bond movies for example would ever have seen the light of the cinema screen. Twilight is the same concept - near enough to be believable.

Depends on the situation. The joy of "do what thou wilt" as a GM is that we can fix things we don't like, and others can just revel in canon as they like - either are acceptable, depending on what the group wants. There's enough stuff in T2k that as an individual gamer I wouldn't use that it's far from what most here would consider canon, but I still consider it fun. However, I'd play in a canon game in a heartbeat. It's all what you want out of the game. I find a lot of the canon a little too depressing so I do it differently, but I appreciate that others don't, and that includes issues with computers and technology. So ultimately I think we're all on the same sheet of music even if we're singing in different keys

[B.T.]

Very inspiring debate!

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Yep, another point often forgotten in the search for "realism". It's just a game. Some of the background doesn't fit with reality, some of it is less than reality, some of it more.

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Depends on the situation. The joy of "do what thou wilt" as a GM is that we can fix things we don't like, and others can just revel in canon as they like - either are acceptable, depending on what the group wants. There's enough stuff in T2k that as an individual gamer I wouldn't use that it's far from what most here would consider canon, but I still consider it fun. However, I'd play in a canon game in a heartbeat. It's all what you want out of the game. I find a lot of the canon a little too depressing so I do it differently, but I appreciate that others don't, and that includes issues with computers and technology. So ultimately I think we're all on the same sheet of music even if we're singing in different keys

You're both right, here. And that's where the problems start for me. One of my players (The youngest, in his early 20ies.) is a university student of computer science. I should better be prepared, if he asks questions on that subject. But my computer knowledge is very limited. Therefore it's good to have the opinions of others. I cannot be the know-all-guy with knowledge on each and every subject. But to entertain my group, I should better have an idea about the real life situation! If I know basic facts, I can simplify for my game, without getting all the facts wrong.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Assuming characters find functional computers I also wonder as does
"raketenjagdpanzer" what are they good for? Lets say we find 10 boxed
486's running Windows 95. They all have modest sized hard drives and memory. They even have 10Mb Ethernet cards.

Setting up a small LAN doesnt really help anyone. There are no networks to connect to in the outside world. The industrial economy no longer exists so who needs inventory software, excel, or anything like that.

I think the really usefull computers in T2K are the little ones that are designed for specific purposes. ie) comptuers controlling industrial proccesses. Hydroplants, refineries, milling machines, etc.

But from a gaming perpective those 10 PCs could easily be useful to someone. maybe a warlord who has gotten a power plant online and needs computers to help repair the plant.

Or mabye someone needs a computer to talk to industrial machine via RS-232 port.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by TrailerParkJawa

Assuming characters find functional computers I also wonder as does
"raketenjagdpanzer" what are they good for? Lets say we find 10 boxed
486's running Windows 95. They all have modest sized hard drives and memory. They even have 10Mb Ethernet cards.

Setting up a small LAN doesnt really help anyone. There are no networks to connect to in the outside world. The industrial economy no longer exists so who needs inventory software, excel, or anything like that.

I think the really usefull computers in T2K are the little ones that are designed for specific purposes. ie) comptuers controlling industrial proccesses. Hydroplants, refineries, milling machines, etc.

But from a gaming perpective those 10 PCs could easily be useful to someone. maybe a warlord who has gotten a power plant online and needs computers to help repair the plant.

Or mabye someone needs a computer to talk to industrial machine via RS-232 port.

I well remember reading WIRED magazine in 1991 talking about RS-232 controlled home-milling machines (this 20 years before the advent of home 3d-printing!)

I personally think for a large municipality a group of 10 machines networked together would be an invaluable resource if you're trying to keep track of managing food, people, etc.; I just don't think Joe Everyman would give a fig about having a working PC any more. Time spent playing DOOM, DOOM2, or Quake (all 3 released prior to the TDM) is less time spent chopping organic matter for the still for the generator that keeps other more important electrical devices running (lights, refrigerator).

But a local government would still make good use of them, I'd wager. Hospitals would find them invaluable, not just for patient records but for research purposes...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by B.T.

You're both right, here. And that's where the problems start for me. One of my players (The youngest, in his early 20ies.) is a university student of computer science. I should better be prepared, if he asks questions on that subject. But my computer knowledge is very limited. Therefore it's good to have the opinions of others. I cannot be the know-all-guy with knowledge on each and every subject. But to entertain my group, I should better have an idea about the real life situation! If I know basic facts, I can simplify for my game, without getting all the facts wrong.

This is what I'd tell him:

USENET is available, but is mostly gobbledygook. Anyone dumb enough to send messages in the clear containing important information will get what they deserve...and there's no real guarantee that the messages will be propagated on the backbone anyway.

EMAIL is the most reliable electronic communication, as long as PGP encryption is used. But it may still take hours to days for a message to propagate across the now fractured internet.

WWW is completely out. It wasn't huge in 1995/'96 - there were probably only on the order of a few million websites. Given the state of telecom backbones even the simplest HTTP page is going to be a huge drain on bandwidth.

TELNET, assuming you can find a remote system to telnet into, is the other reliable feature.

IRC - available, but not at all reliable. IRC was/is a mess now with the internet being as strong as it is, it was worse in our own 1997, postnuke it would be practically unusable. But you never know...

FTP - available but extremely slow. Like, agonizingly slow. Like, here's a 128kb program I need...It'll be downloaded tomorrow slow. This assumes the remote site stays up all that time. A LOT of servers will probably have posted as MOTDs that they only have x uptime during a given day.

Nothing fancy works any more, it's all command line driven.

[Legbreaker]

Added to what you said in the Good Vibrations thread:

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

One thing about pervasive computing: a LOT of it was predicated on the demilitarization of the internet and supporting technologies. Its no mystery as to why suddenly from 1992 until now it seems like there has been an exponential leap in what we can do with computers not just in terms of local technology but with communications, to the point that consumer technology has lapped military tech and COTS is now the rule of the game in the face of an ever-shrinking military budget: the end of the cold war gave birth to a vastly more open internet, and once those technologies were in place it was Katie bar the door!

However, in T2k, that never happens. 1992 sees a USSR just as immovable and belligerent as always; there is no want cause or need for the US Military to open the floodgates of the Internet to even benign developers like Tim Berners-Lee, et al. Oh, sure, there were already "social websites" (for lack of a better term) in place with CompuServe, BIX, GENie, and so on, but the degree of consumer-level networking that we saw even back in the mid 90s is nowhere to be found in the Twilight:2000 universe. I would say its alternate-setting computing would be that individual workstation/desktop PCs would be more-or-less the same, just with less emphasis on networking them - why fiddle around with an ethernet card for your PC or laptop when there's jack-all to do with them save LAN stuff? And in the mid 90s most of that is all still do-able via sneakernet anyway.

You're making a hell of a lot of sense to me.

Really brings the Computer skill back into usefulness too.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I well remember reading WIRED magazine in 1991 talking about RS-232 controlled home-milling machines (this 20 years before the advent of home 3d-printing!)

I personally think for a large municipality a group of 10 machines networked together would be an invaluable resource if you're trying to keep track of managing food, people, etc.; I just don't think Joe Everyman would give a fig about having a working PC any more. Time spent playing DOOM, DOOM2, or Quake (all 3 released prior to the TDM) is less time spent chopping organic matter for the still for the generator that keeps other more important electrical devices running (lights, refrigerator).

But a local government would still make good use of them, I'd wager. Hospitals would find them invaluable, not just for patient records but for research purposes...

I still have trouble seeing the need to use computers for inventory but let me elabrate on where Im coming from. In 1991 I worked in a warehouse and we had no computers. Once a month or so we would do inventory and input it all into a computer in the main office. Otherwise daily inventory was simply in our heads or a quick manual count. When it got low orders were made via phone by a manager.

To be fair it wasnt a big warehouse (this was at an amusement park) at least for our section. The other group would have benefited from a computer system. Perhaps its a questsion of scale and scope. The more smallish items you have that have infrequent usage the more a compter would help.

For my team we making deliveies every day over an over so we really could keep it in our heads. Even part numbers.

I totally agree on the games part. Power is so rare in T2k that using to play DOOM would be almost criminal

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by TrailerParkJawa

I still have trouble seeing the need to use computers for inventory but let me elabrate on where Im coming from. In 1991 I worked in a warehouse and we had no computers. Once a month or so we would do inventory and input it all into a computer in the main office. Otherwise daily inventory was simply in our heads or a quick manual count. When it got low orders were made via phone by a manager.

To be fair it wasnt a big warehouse (this was at an amusement park) at least for our section. The other group would have benefited from a computer system. Perhaps its a questsion of scale and scope. The more smallish items you have that have infrequent usage the more a compter would help.

For my team we making deliveies every day over an over so we really could keep it in our heads. Even part numbers.

I totally agree on the games part. Power is so rare in T2k that using to play DOOM would be almost criminal

I definitely see where you're coming from, and putting important information on non-volatile storage media (e.g., paper) would vastly outstrip the need to use what would be in most basic terms a glorified typewriter that soaks up precious watts that could go to other purposes.

However, with that said, I still think some larger municipalities would want "information technology" of that level. It's not for nothing that they're prominently listed among the loot that can be found in a cache at the end of (I think it is) Allegheny Uprising, some boxed in fully operational condition are mentioned in Armies of the Night, and finally the whole issue of the MacGuffin the Poles were working on (a hard-wired analog CPU replacement that could emulate x86 (Intel/PC Clone) CPUs).

And again, the comms issue is another matter: I definitely think isolated milgov (and civgov!) camps would want to use them to try and get a message to CoG sites.