Howling Wilderness timeline issues

[Olefin]

I have made arguments that the HW timeline is incorrect so I will post some of them here

Lets start with the Ozarks

If you go to that module it doesnt officially start until March of 2001 with the characters beginning their infiltration of the Ozark area, which would be expected to last weeks if not months. Capturing the dirigible means a lot of play time to find the base, plan on getting it and then getting it back to Memphis.

that timeline is official GDW timeline not mine in an issued module - you literally cannot start the event till March of 2001

and the attack that will follow by MilGov doesnt start until after the characters return with the dirigible.

But what does HW state - it states a US govt attack using the dirigible that starts in March 2001 - i.e. it has the attack start before the events of the module can even occur

And New America is an unknown force in March of 2001 - the specific module language is the mystery that is New America - meaning its unknown

So the battles against New America that supposedly happen in March of 2001that cause all the casualties to the 85th could not have happened by the April 1, 2001 date in the HW timeline.

The module can not be run as it is layed out, with the characters returnign with the info and the dirigible and then an offensive planned and conducted in that timeframe, especially as the HW timeline says the offensive happened and the Ozarks were freed from New America and the 85th Division had been hit hard and already returned to its LA base all by April 1, 2001.

Sorry but no dice - not by April 1, 2001.

Thus what HW stated as to the 85th and 98th division could not have happened by the timeframe in the module. It directly contradicts previous established canon and thus, in my opinon, is not canon as it is written. You can have the affect it mentions but not by April 1, 2001. It would take probably till at least June for those events to occur if not later.

You cant have one without the other - either Ozarks is wrong or HW is wrong. Thus strike one against the HW timeline and its affect on US formations.

Oh and Ozarks is very clear that it was played in order with either Armies of the Night or Red Star, Lone Star being played previously and the characters recruited based on their accomplishments therein or that they had done previous campaigns in the US. And NA didnt appear until Jan 1, 2001 - so you cant move the module start date back.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I have made arguments that the HW timeline is incorrect so I will post some of them here.

Ok, lets turn this on it's head for something different.
What do you see is right?

[Olefin]

I will get to that later. HW for too long has been either just accepted or defended using "its canon". Well its not canon if it directly contradicts earlier established canon unless the author says that GDW is retconning those modules and sourcebooks - which it didnt, either in the module itself or in Challenge magazine.

And they had time -its not like they issued HW and then promptly went out of business right afterward.

[Olefin]

As to the 49th Division

Supposedly by April 1, 2001 it had been broken up into various company and battalion size units.

However in Ozarks written for an early March 2001 start it refers specifically to the command center of th 49th Armored Division in Oklahoma and being briefed there by Major Walker of the DIA. By April 2001 it was supposedly seperate battlegroups dispersed throughout OK.

The description in Ozarks and the one in HW dont describe the same unit. The one in Ozarks has a command center that obviously is very much in communication with higher commands and is functional as a division, not as a bunch of spread out smaller units.

Then there is the description of MilGov for the south central states - i.e the recent campaign against New America in the Ozarks that could not have even started yet by April 1, 2001. So how does he resent what hasnt happened yet?

Both Missouri and Arkansas descriptions show they are destroying the last of the New Americans by April 1, 2001 but the campaign couldnt have even started by that date.

And the biggest whopper of them all - page 41 of HW states that MilGov was unable to conduct an offensive into Texas in 1999. That directly contradicts multiple canon descriptions in Red Star, Lone Star, US Vehicle Guide and the boxed set that say directly that there was an offensive in Texas by the US.

And what is has to say about the state of Texas does not match what is in Red Star Lone Star - nothing about Soviets, Americans and Mexicans living together and fighting off marauders is ever mentioned at all. The only mention of the Soviets is one where they are basically not wanted by the Americans at all and the Mexicans barely.

Plus where is the oil of Gulf Forty and the effect of all that refined oil suddenly being available? It would have occured right about the Feb March timeframe, especially since the characters to get to OK would have had to cross all of Texas to do it, so that makes the battle at Gulf Forty, at the latest, in late January of 2001.

again the April 1 timeline and events mentioned for it contradict or dont match earlier established canon.

Now for the 197th

The 197th has the same number of men in April 2001 as it does in the US Vehicle Guide

what happened to the 57 men they lost in the Ozarks to New America in Feb of 2001? Two whole platoons wiped out - but not a reference at all in HW.

So how is that explained - by having the 85th merge with them in March 2001 after the supposed huge losses they took against New America in march of 2001

Again an event that could not have happened by April 1 of 2001

So now you have four divisons affected supposedly by April 1, 2001 by an event that could not have occurred till June at the earliest (i.e. the mopping up of the final remnants of New America after the characters completed the module that didnt even start till early March at the earliest and possibly even late March)

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Well its not canon if it directly contradicts earlier established canon....

I'd suggest you look up a thread entitled "what is canon" from a couple of years ago to get a feel for what most people in this forum think about that. I think you'll find yourself in the minority, especially as most of the supposed contradictions you're referring to can be explained. That's about all I have to say on that particular topic.

[kalos72]

Honeslty, both Going Home and Howling Wilderness are nothing more then sources of data for me to use on my own timeline. Using that data as is would not make for a consisten storyline in most aspect...

Even Operation Omega strikes as non-sensical and I would love to ignore most of it. :P

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Honeslty, both Going Home and Howling Wilderness are nothing more then sources of data for me to use on my own timeline. Using that data as is would not make for a consisten storyline in most aspect...

Even Operation Omega strikes as non-sensical and I would love to ignore most of it. :P

That's kind of where I am; I don't mind OpOrd Omega so much but as I mentioned elsewhere I kind of shake it up a bit.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I'd suggest you look up a thread entitled "what is canon" from a couple of years ago to get a feel for what most people in this forum think about that. I think you'll find yourself in the minority, especially as most of the supposed contradictions you're referring to can be explained. That's about all I have to say on that particular topic.

Yeah; I think the thing to remember is: if its printed by GDW it's canon, otherwise not. I don't think that means people who don't want to follow canon have to - but I also don't think it's constructive to keep saying "This shouldn't be canon, it sucks and here's why."

I mean...take Greyhawk for AD&D...which is actually a lot like Twilight:2000 but that's not for now...anyway, there are diehard fans of Greyhawk who fall into the "It is or was printed, therefore it's canon." but see...for me, any Greyhawk stuff NOT written by Gary Gygax or Rob Kuntz tends to be shit IMO. Greyhawk Wars? The terrible "Castle Greyhawk" module written after Gary left TSR? Hell, most everything after Gary left TSR? Yeah, no, it's crap all of it.

So what do I do? I ignore it. I ignore From the Ashes, Iuz Returns, Die Vecna Die, all the Jean Rabe GH novels, all the post-Gary GH modules, on and on. For me, it isn't ever going to happen in my Greyhawk campaign(s). But...there are people who play Greyhawk first, D&D second. So when Wizards of the Coast threw 4th edition into the mix and said "Dragonborn and tieflings and eladrin* are now part of your campaign, deal with it." bam, into their greyhawk then went.

(*=anthropomorphic dragons, demon-people, elves by another name)

Phew. Got a little far afield there, sorry. But I think I got my point over, yeah?

[Olefin]

I am saying the canon is wrong from a timeline point.

You can stil have those canon entries take place - but not on April 1, 2001.

Move them to June 1, 2001 and it works.

But not April.

You cant have your cake and eat it too- you cant say if its in the canon then thats the way it goes and then have two canon modules that directly contradict each other.

And with canon the first module printed wins every time.

So Howling Wildnerness loses when it comes to those four divisions and how the Ozark fighting affected them. On April 1, 2001 they would be stronger than stated in HW.

That fighting had not occurred yet per the Ozarks module which was issued first and had clear dates establishing its start date as being in early to mid march of 2001 and thus takes precedence over HW unless a statement was made in HW retconning the date.

And no such retcon ever took place.

End of story - sorry Leg but unless there is time travel involved the two modules cannot both be right.

Move the date and the effect on those divisions works just fine.

Keep it and you have to rewrite those four divisions for the Ozark fighting having not occurred at that date.

[Olefin]

You cant explain fighting happening in March of 2001 with New America when the module hadnt even started yet.

Not unless you want to have a guy show up in a London Police Box who has a weird screwdriver.

Now there would be an interesting module.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I will get to that later. HW for too long has been either just accepted or defended using "its canon". Well its not canon if it directly contradicts earlier established canon unless the author says that GDW is retconning those modules and sourcebooks - which it didnt, either in the module itself or in Challenge magazine.

And they had time -its not like they issued HW and then promptly went out of business right afterward.

Of course Howling Wilderness is canon! It doesn't get any more canon than that! Just because there are inconsistancies between HW and previously published modules and sourcebooks doesn't mean that HW isn't canon. Yes Olefin, you've made it abundantly clear you don't like what's in HW. Fine, we get that, so don't use it in your campaigns. But you suddenly turn up here as a new member and launch into post after post, new thread after new thread, much of it inflammatory, and talk like you've got some legion of followers accepting you word as rote. You were warned right at the start that the canon/non canon issue is a sore point around here. So do you tread softly-softly around the issue? No, you start new threads DIRECTLY ABOUT THE ISSUE. Even I, with first hand experience of the past disagreements around here, couldn't stir up more trouble than you if I tried.

What the hell, man? So what is it? Are you an idiot (I don't think so). Are you so committed to your T2K beliefs that you don't care about pissing people off? Or are you deliberately stirring up trouble here? I suspect you get off on it. FFS, you're a one man wrecking ball. I've asked you nicely. I swallowed my pride and admitted fault on my own behalf. You agreed to try to be a bit more reasonable in your arguments. Short memory huh?

[Olefin]

Targan, I will say this as nicely as I can.

I have not in any way directly insulted anyone on this board and have followed board policy about how posts are to be made.

You are a moderator and I am a member but frankly no one has the right to insult a member of this board as you have just done. You talk about damage to the board and then do more damage with what you just posted than anything I have ever posted or would ever post.

I do not in any way get off on causing trouble. That is highly insulting to say about anyone here and even more so since you posted it publicly.

This thread directly goes to the timeline errors in HW and how it affects what was said about four US divisions and nothing else. Those errors are very real and directly contradiict the official canon as was in Ozarks. Notice what I said - that if the events are moved to June 1, 2001 or so then they work just fine.

Leg wanted to know specifics of what my objections were and I posted them here and showed why there are parts of HW that make no sense from a pure timeline standpoint. A canon built on a sequence of events has to keep that timeline to make sense. In such a canon, which is what T2000 is, clearly if a later release contradicts the canon, then either one or the other needs to be retconned.

Its one reason City of Angels is considered apocrypha where once it was canon - because it has so many contradictions that it cannot be considered part of the canon.

Thats why Star Trek is such a mess - it has dates all over the place and multiple contradictions everywhere. Comics are the same way - how many times now have they relaunched Superman and Batman?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I have not in any way directly insulted anyone on this board and have followed board policy about how posts are to be made.

Perhaps the letter but certainly not the spirit.

Originally Posted by Olefin

You are a moderator and I am a member but frankly no one has the right to insult a member of this board as you have just done. You talk about damage to the board and then do more damage with what you just posted than anything I have ever posted or would ever post.

Note that Targan is not the only one in a position of authority who feel this way. There are also many, many forum members who feel the same but have chosen to bite their tongue and remain quiet in public. Believe me, PMs and emails are flying at the moment.
So, I suggest as have others, that a modification of your posting style/approach/presentation be made, or as I can tell you from experience, it will be made for you.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Its one reason City of Angels is considered apocrypha where once it was canon - because it has so many contradictions that it cannot be considered part of the canon.

Actually, by definition, neither City of Angels, nor Twilightcycle:2000 (Paranioa crossover set in San Francisco) are canon. It seems clear you have not taken my advice and read the suggested thread or you would already know this.

[Olefin]

As I said I have already had a moderator tell me that what I am posting is per board policy and is moderate in both tone and content and I have followed his advice to the letter.

As obviously there is a difference of opinion as expressed tonight then the moderators can talk among themselves and get back to me privately if they wish to do so.

And so to your suggestions - I will follow board policy on my response.

[pmulcahy11b]

I regard Howling Wilderness as a sort of outline -- and a rough draft with many mistakes that were never rectified by GDW. You can get a decent overview of the US in 2000, but there are numerous internal inconsistencies, and it seems that it makes little effort to hang with the rest of the T2K world setting.

As I said. it's a very rough draft.

[Olefin]

"I regard Howling Wilderness as a sort of outline -- and a rough draft with many mistakes that were never rectified by GDW. You can get a decent overview of the US in 2000, but there are numerous internal inconsistencies, and it seems that it makes little effort to hang with the rest of the T2K world setting.

As I said. it's a very rough draft."

well said