Semi OT- Twilight 1950

[Sanjuro]

Several British writers from the 1940s commented on the fear that the Soviets, on reaching Germany, might just keep going and try to conquer the whole of Europe. Given the level of exhaustion (not to mention bankruptcy) in Britain, and the massive destruction of European industry, this would have been a very hard fight- the initial US nuclear advantage giving a few years of grace, but at the cost of making Central Europe even more devastated.
By 1950, the Soviets might also have nuclear weapons; both sides might be using V2s and their derivatives.
Alternatively, a scenario could be built around an escalation at the time of the Berlin Airlift.
For either of these, PCs (potentially survivors of a decade of war) would have huge combat experience; the battleground would probably be Germany instead of Poland; US troops (who enlisted to fight Germany) would be angry about the extended war... the possibilities are endless.
Any ideas?

[95th Rifleman]

Work both ways, Soviet PCs (and NPCs) would be veterans of the great patriotic war and wondering why they have not gone home yet. The war is supposed to be over, the fascists are defeated and yet they are now being told to turn on their former allies?

Propoganda can only go so far, both sides would be at the end of their emotional and pyschological limits.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro

Several British writers from the 1940s commented on the fear that the Soviets, on reaching Germany, might just keep going and try to conquer the whole of Europe.

There's also the possibility that it might have been the Western powers that kept going eastwards...Churchill went as far as instructing the Chiefs of Staff to come up with a plan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable

[Brit]

This might be useful: http://www.dalecozort.com/AHNewslett...WorldWarII.htm Personally, I find it more 'realistic', and much less fanciful, than the cliched "Germans suddenly unleash The Superweapons" idea.

I've also read on the 'What If?' site an alternative history idea where the Allies keep going, i.e. Patton doesn't stop, and post-war Czechosovakia is split into Czech NATO and a Slovakian Warsaw Pact halves. The Canadian's administer the Western half for a while, revive the arms industry and use upgraded Panther tanks in the Korean War and for several years later. (Some now missile armed Jadgpanthers might still be available for T2K...)

[Legbreaker]

There's also the possibility MacArthur could have gotten his way and attacked into China from Korea in 1951. That would have resulted in a VERY nasty situation as you can be sure the PACT (did they exist as a formal body then?) would have moved in Europe as well as in the east. MacArthur was also keen on using nukes at the time and the Soviets wouldn't have held much back. MAD wouldn't have been possible, with nukes being used only as fast as they could be hand built.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

There's also the possibility MacArthur could have gotten his way and attacked into China from Korea in 1951. That would have resulted in a VERY nasty situation as you can be sure the PACT (did they exist as a formal body then?) would have moved in Europe as well as in the east. MacArthur was also keen on using nukes at the time and the Soviets wouldn't have held much back. MAD wouldn't have been possible, with nukes being used only as fast as they could be hand built.

And limited ability to deploy them without cruise missles.

[Legbreaker]

Absolutely, which would further restrict the ability of one side or the other completely flattening the opposition in one go. Makes a slow slide into chaos and anarchy even more plausible than the original T2K.

[Brit]

There's also the possibility MacArthur could have gotten his way and attacked into China from Korea in 1951. That would have resulted in a VERY nasty situation

Would have been for me. My Dad was serving in Korea at the time...

And if anyone wants a 'C.O.' so was Maurice Micklewhite, soon to be 'Michael Caine'! Cut'n'paste a photo of the older actor from a 'Bridge to far' for a later war...

[M-Type]

After reading about MacArthur's 'nuclear ambitions', I always thought a alt-history Korea would be quite unique and exciting. Could also lead to some climactic moments, what with the Chinese human wave assaults and all.

[Legbreaker]

He was certainly a very dangerous man all right! If Truman hadn't sacked him and MacArthur had pushed his luck just a little more....

[Panther Al]

The problem with Mac in Korea, is that both sides was right: China was sticking its finger in the pie, and the best way to stop that, and win the war, would be to take it to them. However, in this area, Truman was also right: On the broader geopolitical stage, doing so would have escalated the war to unknown heights. In the end, Truman made the right call: Get Mac out of there, but at the cost of leaving Korea the mess it is now. I'd take that over a 1950's nuclear WW3.

[M-Type]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

I'd take that over a 1950's nuclear WW3.

Amen to that! Unless you're a fan of Fallout that is...

[Adm.Lee]

Another piece of misery to add to a Korean War --> WW3 option is the suspicion that MacArthur was negotiating with Chiang Kai-Shek to bring the defeated Nationalists into the war, either by sending divisions to Korea, or by invading the mainland. Or both.

Given the performance of the Nationalists in 1945-49, I'm not sure they'd do much good for the UN forces.

They're an option in my favorite KW wargame, the Victory Games offering from the mid-'80s, and they're rated as effective as the ROKs. I've never felt the need to try that option, the UN usually has things sewn up pretty well.

[weswood]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro

Several British writers from the 1940s commented on the fear that the Soviets, on reaching Germany, might just keep going and try to conquer the whole of Europe. Given the level of exhaustion (not to mention bankruptcy) in Britain, and the massive destruction of European industry, this would have been a very hard fight- the initial US nuclear advantage giving a few years of grace, but at the cost of making Central Europe even more devastated.
By 1950, the Soviets might also have nuclear weapons; both sides might be using V2s and their derivatives.
Alternatively, a scenario could be built around an escalation at the time of the Berlin Airlift.
For either of these, PCs (potentially survivors of a decade of war) would have huge combat experience; the battleground would probably be Germany instead of Poland; US troops (who enlisted to fight Germany) would be angry about the extended war... the possibilities are endless.
Any ideas?

I like this idea. I think Europe may have been war torn enough that nukes wouldn't have had to be used to make interesting gameplay.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Im working on my Twilight 1946+ campaign.

A non nuclear WW3.

Important Points.

Hitler assassinated early 1945.

German Military bloody but successful coup against SS.

The German High command knowing Uncle Joe was out for blood sue for peace with US and Britain,

Nuclear weapons research suffers a major set back.

Increased fire bombing and with the Russians getting ready to invade Japan, China makes a deal with the Russians.

Japan see's the writing on the wall. The Emperor has a vision during a fever, he in great humility Surrenders to the US forces. He has the support of the People, not all of the military is as cooperative. But most do.

There is great relief for a short time. The world is looking at peace.

The German forces retreat to German border. US and British forces take up positions through out Germany and along the Poland/German Border.

Stalin is not very happy. Another purge in Russia.

Spy's on all sides are working as much as the Diplomats.

Several incidences and misunderstandings start the ball rolling in late 45, Stalin's Russians invade to take Berlin and then the rest of the world.

Its just a rough draft I am still fleshing out the details. Got a bunch of scribbled notes and thoughts.

Twilight 1946+
One thing that did happen that the Some of the Waffen SS units were sent from the camps to the front to slow the Russian advance. (these units had US or British Liaison units attached)

Some of the Brit and US units were overrun quickly, many captured. Tough for most of them though. (Shock units had no prisoner orders). A lucky US trooper with a camera caught one of these massacres on film and actually made it back to friendly troops, as did other eye witnesses). The Number and severity of these made Malmedy look like a walk in the park.

Basically the US Fighter and Bomber forces suffering high casualties when they were taking out supply and military forces.

US, British, and German Ground forces Fought hard and lost many, but delayed long enough that other forces were brought to bear. Air support and heavy bombers blue the hell out of the support lines of the Russian advance.

Heck some of the old maps can still be used. The final Advances of the Russians in the real world made it as far as they did then. Berlin is surrounded and is the new Stalingrad. Russians have strong forces concentrated in this area. Some Air drops that were flying with the bombers got some supplies to the cut off troops there.

Patton is still alive, and one of the Generals at the front.

One of the Ideas for characters is part of one of the cut off units fighting with resistance behind lines. Former Civilians, German (even one of the surviving Waffen SS, US, British Free Polish, etc.)

About the Waffen SS that were activated. When the Russians were planing on invading, the SS that were not directly involved in the Camps were given a choice. Join what were known as Redemption Battalions. These would have a US or Brit Liaison Unit. These Units were Sent in to stall the Russian advance. Most of the Units and men fought to the end. Few survive though becoming the pain in the ass of the Russian rear units and some front line troops.

Just some of my random thoughts and ideas kinda lumped into a well semi coherent Idea.

This may develop into a long term war. Which would be just as bad as any nuclear war since the starting point is a world already wracked by years of war.

Could be done as a survival style game, episodic war movie type game, long term Campaign. Land, Air and or Sea battles etc etc.... or a combination there of.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

As an interesting aside, the AK rifle probably would not have the prominence it has today in such a scenario. As of the end of WW2, the SKS was adopted as the next battle rifle but design competitions were being held to develop a more modern rifle on par with the German StG44 etc.

Although the AK is not a simple copy of the StG44, the German rifle was massively influential on Soviet designers and nearly every rifle submitted for the design competition followed the same layout as the StG44.

The AK was accepted as much for political reason as military as many of the Soviet heirachy still held the belief that they were intellectually superior to the Soviet peasant. Even though better rifles were developed for the competition the AK was considered best for the "simple peasant soldier" but it had to go through several years of refinement before it was considered acceptable for production.

Given the war scenario of Twilight: 1950, it's highly likely that the Soviets would not have the luxury of time to develop the AK series into what we know today and it's possible several other designs may have been put into production.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Yeah thats whats cool about this time period, alternate weapons and technologies. Though I still think the AK or one of its alternates would still be able to be used.

In my version, the elite shock troops and the guard troops would be using the SKS.

http://gunco-book.tripod.com/04.htm

this page has some really cool picks to use as influence for small arms for the period.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Oh I'm not saying the AK would not exist, only that it would likely be one of a number of designs in use and the AK would not be as dominant as it has been in real life.
Here are some alternate designs from the era that would be pretty interesting if a little bizarre to most solid infantry types: -
http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/korobov-tkb-40-e.html
http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/korobov-tkb-022-e.html

And a more conventional rifle from the same designer
http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/korobov-tkb-517-e.html

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Just think of the possibilities for the allies.

Say the US industrial war machine stamping out MG42s and Stg44s (possibly with some minor improvements.

One thing I was thinking of is the M1 Garand re-chambered the new US M3 .32 cal rifle cartridge (the 8mm Mauser). Even a magazine fed version.

M1g: standard M1 Garand re-chambered in 8mm

M1m: Magazine fed Garand in 8mm

M44: American made Stg44 (possible slight modifications for production purposes)

Just some of the Ideas.

The US army was actually thinking of adopting the MG42, they tried to re-chamber it in 3006 but did not have too much success.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Give me a day or two to find the link and I can give you a website that has some images of a few US prototype weapons from during and just after WW2 including the US MG42 that you mentioned and I think also some of the early M14 designs from the Garand.

Originally Posted by Cpl. Kalkwarf

Just think of the possibilities for the allies.

Say the US industrial war machine stamping out MG42s and Stg44s (possibly with some minor improvements.

One thing I was thinking of is the M1 Garand re-chambered the new US M3 .32 cal rifle cartridge (the 8mm Mauser). Even a magazine fed version.

M1g: standard M1 Garand re-chambered in 8mm

M1m: Magazine fed Garand in 8mm

M44: American made Stg44 (possible slight modifications for production purposes)

Just some of the Ideas.

The US army was actually thinking of adopting the MG42, they tried to re-chamber it in 3006 but did not have too much success.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

cool my players like pics.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Oh and I just remembered something else, Vogrimmler (I think that was his name), one of the engineers working on the StG45 rifle, went to France after the war and then on to Spain to help design the CETME rifles that were then redesigned into the G3 by H&K.
During his time in France he helped develop a carbine similar to the Stg44 and StG45 but it was designed to fire the .30Carbine round.
I know I have pics of the prototype somewhere and it's on the net somewhere, I just have to remember the rifles proper name but that way you could easily have an American StG44 type.



Edit: okay, I've been a bad boy at work and wasted company time looking for these...meh...

Anyway, the website I mentioned is here
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/

The French StG45 variant in .30Carbine is the CEAM Modèle 1950, a brief wiki page is here with one image but you can find others on the net with the rear stock folded and also one with the foreward grip (actually a bipod) folded down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEAM_Mod%C3%A8le_1950

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Cpl. Kalkwarf

Hitler assassinated early 1945.

Maybe move that back to mid-late 1944? Give the Germans a bit more time to "clean house" before they've suffered too much damage?
You could say it was in response to one of Hitlers more boneheaded ideas to "throw the allies back into the sea" after D Day.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Cpl. Kalkwarf

Just think of the possibilities for the allies

What about the FN-FAL? It was in prototype stage in 1947, refine in 1948, and presented to the US for testing in 1950

It was big and heavy and packed a mean punch, but it was used buy alot of NATO and Commonwealth Countries


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL

[Legbreaker]

The British would be more likely to use their own design, the Enfield EM-2.

[Webstral]

Stalin was so anxious about the possibility of a Western assault following the surrender of Germany that he ordered rail lines across Poland torn up. It’s hard to imagine that the Soviets would have pressed for war against the US, whatever their ideological preferences might have been. Stalin’s advisors would have told him that the strategic situation was intolerable at the time.

The US mainland was untouchable by any weapons the Soviets possessed or were likely to make operational soon, whereas the US possessed a very large fleet of splendid four-engine bombers that could have reached targets in the western Soviet Union from bases in England, the Caucasus from bases in Egypt, and Central Asia from bases in India. All aid to the USSR from the US would have ceased immediately, of course. Stalin knew perfectly well that the US had operational atomic weapons by the time of the Potsdam conference. He also had to have some idea of the vast American industrial capacity.

[Legbreaker]

If Stalin could have kept the US out of a continuing war.....

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

If Stalin could have kept the US out of a continuing war.....

It's hard to imagine how that would have happened, though. Any attack on Western Europe would have been an attack on US forces.

Possibly, Stalin might have become convinced that the Western Allies were about to kick the alliance to the curb. In this instance, he might have become convinced that the best chance for Soviet success lay in an all-out invasion of Western Europe that would force the US to negotiate peace. He might have known that the US would have had real trouble raising the money to pay for further arms and armaments. He might have gambled that the US would be closer to its point of psychological exhaustion than the USSR. He might have known that the US did not have any more atomic weapons ready for use. He might have figured that control of Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, Austria, and maybe Norway would present the Allies with too great a task to continue fighting--at least until the Soviets could make their own atomic weapons and delivery systems.

Stalin would have been keenly aware that his refusal to make preparations in the face of Nazi preparations led to disaster in 1941. If he became convinced that the Allies were interested in picking up where the Germans had left off, he might very well be predisposed towards pre-emptive action. In this case, he would not have transferred forces to East Asia. He would have left them in Europe and launched an offensive there. I can’t say whether he would have intended to stop at the Rhine or press on into France. It’s hard to say whether he would have gone into Greece or Italy. Stalin probably would have directed forces into Iran, which would have yielded a warm-water port for later use. Soviet forces might have entered the Chinese Civil War, too. It’s hard to say whether and when the Japanese would have surrendered in August 1945 without a Soviet offensive in Manchuria.

Equally hard to guess would be the reaction among the Allies. Obviously, the Allies would react with all due vigor to having been attacked. But what would public opinion in the US and the UK be? The UK in particular might have been a spent force at that point. Would the American citizenry be willing to accept another long war? What strategic plan could have been sold to the American people? How would an onslaught by heavily armored Soviet forces have affected the Allies? There is a huge number of unknowns. It would make for some exciting reading, though.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The British would be more likely to use their own design, the Enfield EM-2.

If we're playing that game, I'll see your EM-2 and raise you an FN 49 chambered for 7mm Mk.1, built at the completely hypothetical Fabrique Nationale-Enfield factory.

- C.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Lots of ideas are going thru my brain matter its makin my head hurt in a good way.

US

Assualt rifle based on the Haenel / Schmeiiser MKb.42(H) machine carbine
Designation M4 and M4a1 with folding stock (posibly in .30 carbine, maybe just keep it in 8mm kurtz though called something like .32 Carbine round)

Magazine fed M1 Garand

British
EM-1 and or EM-2
Sterling SMG

Russians would of coarse have the SKS in greater numbers and the AK47 or one of its parallel developed weapons.

Gotta get to work.............lots of stuff to decide on.