Chemical warfare

[manunancy]

From what I can remember from newspapers and the like, destroying chemicals warfare agents takes high temperature incineration, the ideal being plasma torching the stuff.

FAE and their ilk might reach teh required temperatures, but it's likely they can sustain it long enough to work.

Oh well, just tos a nuke then - since yo'ure going in on NBC posture anyway, you might as well fry whatever protected troops the ennemy as around the place along with try to fry the chemicals....

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by manunancy

Oh well, just tos a nuke then - since yo'ure going in on NBC posture anyway, you might as well fry whatever protected troops the ennemy as around the place along with try to fry the chemicals....

If you're going to go nuclear to go through contaminated areas, which are an inevitable product of chemical warfare, why not cut out the middle man and go nuclear from the start?

[Raellus]

What was standard issue MOPP gear for US troops during the late Cold War? The M42/45 gas mask bag appears to be an integral part of ALICE gear for US troops, so I'm assuming that every front line soldier had at least a gas mask. Were there additional pieces (e.g. gloves) in the bag also? It doesn't look like it could hold a protective suit/boots. If not, where were those pieces kept?

-

[ToughOmbres]

Originally Posted by Raellus

What was standard issue MOPP gear for US troops during the late Cold War? The M42/45 gas mask bag appears to be an integral part of ALICE gear for US troops, so I'm assuming that every front line soldier had at least a gas mask. Were there additional pieces (e.g. gloves) in the bag also? It doesn't look like it could hold a protective suit/boots. If not, where were those pieces kept?

-

M17a1 and M17a2 protective masks were almost always on the left hip. Mask carrier bags had a little pouch for anti-fogging kits for lenses.
Depending on the MOPP level the other equipment (charcoal impregnated suits, overboots, gloves) could be pushed out from inventory. Same thing with spare filters which were tricky things to fit in the old M17 series.

The same things with paper testing strips, decontamination kits or for NBC units the chemical "sniffers"-it would depend on the MOPP level.
No idea about the antidote auto injectors-only briefly seen in training for most people and got the impression the real thing would only be issued after the balloon went up.

[Homer]

From memory, and what’s left of some notes, here’s a rundown of individual “go-to-war” MOPP issue circa mid 90s-mid 2000s.

If memory serves, we deployed with a partial issue (masks, filters, 2x jslist suits and a set of gloves and booties) and got the rest in theater from prepo. There was at least one turn in of some home station stuff to replace it with newer gear. We got the NAAKs, etc about a month out from crossing the berm, started wearing mask carrier and ICE Pack. By later trips, they were issuing the bare minimum again (didn’t even always carry mask).

1x M40 or M42 (mounted crewman) mask. The M42 is an M40 fitted with a hose, canister assembly, microphone plug in, and fitting for vehicle gas particular filter (GPFU). Mask stores in a case carried on the left side of the body (or in the top of the ruck if you’re a hardcore light fighter). The mask gets issued with clear and tinted ballistic outserts and a green tint laser outsert is also available. Also gets issued with a training C2 canister, and face form but those get ditched for real use. The case also comes with a waterproof bag for the mask, and manual. The mask uses a side mounted canister, and the D ring on the case serves as a wrench to swap out the voicemitter to left or right side. Mask was also fitted with a hood that covered head and neck, hooking under the armpits.

2-4 (SOP and books said three, actual issue was 4) “MOPP suits”. Either the old style Chemical Protective Overgarment (CPOG) in OD green or the newer Joint Service Lightweight Integrated Suit Technology (JSLIST) in woodland or 3 color desert. They came sealed in a vacuum pack that you broke open on order to don your first suit. Second suit traveled with you in an individual chemical equipment (ICE) pack; a woodland camo bag with extra JSLIST, boots, gloves, hood, helmet cover, decon wipes, and filter canister. Theoretically the ICE pack fit onto the back of LCE, but was usually put on the top of the ruck or assault pack. The third and fourth suits were typically carried in a duffel bag or palletized in the trains. The CPOG was good for four hours once exposed, while the JSLIST was good for 12 (I think); either way, the goal was to decontaminate and exchange to “clean” gear ASAP to get out of mask and gloves. Unlike Soviet style gear, the CPOG and JSLIST “breathed” to a degree.

3 sets of Nerve Agent Antidote Kit (NAAK). A clip with an auto injector of atropine and another of 2PAM CL. Carried in pocket of MOPP suit. Give yourself the first one if you’ve been exposed to nerve agent (small atropine then large 2PAM). Your buddy gives you the rest. Needles get bent through pocket flap to show medics what you’ve been given.

1 Convulsive Antidote Nerve Agent (CANA). Autoinjector carried in pocket of MOPP suit. Administered by your buddy after NAAK. Same drill with needles.

1xM291 Skin Decon Kit. A wallet of six skin decon wipes, two per decon. Carried in a hard plastic case that fits the pouch on the rear of the mask case. Can also clip onto LBE, etc. with a snap hook. Usually no problem getting more, they get expended in training. Decon powder turns skin black/grey.

1x M295 Decon Kit. Four vacuum sealed decon mitts used for personal equipment, weapons, etc. Two mitts per decon. Stains your gear black/grey. No problem getting more. Carried extras of both decon kits at 1 per ICE pack. Ready set in ruck, assault pack, or mopp gear pockets.

1x Book M8 detector paper. Turns color to indicate type of liquid agent. Put on stick or something and poke it in puddle of agent then read like litmus paper. Carried in pockets of mopp gear.

1x dispenser M9 detector paper. Light grey/green color with adhesive back. Turns color when exposed to liquid agent, but doesn’t classify type of agent. Taped on legs, arm, wrist of mopp gear. Also attached to vehicles. Extras of both types of paper issued.

3x C2 canisters. Filter for M40, screws on and off. Comes in sealed can with opening key- like a Spam can. Good for variable periods depending on agent, but goal is decon and exchange. Can change canisters in contaminated environment.
Extra canisters issued and carried in ICE packs.

1 pair butyl rubber gloves- like chemistry lab gloves. Left and right are interchangeable. Come with a white cotton liner for comfort and grip. Exchanged with mopp gear. Worn in Mopp 4.

1 pair over boots- these are identical to the black or green rain boots issued at CIF. Exchanged with mopp gear. Worn at mopp 2 or higher. Extras in ICE packs.

1x mask hood- OD green/gray issued with mask and exchanged with mopp gear. Extras in ICE packs.

1x helmet cover- Od green/gray, fits over combat helmet like a shower cap. Donned when exposure imminent. Exchanged with mopp gear. Can’t wear it and use helmet mounted nvgs. Put inside the Kevlar PASGT helmet it makes a good basin for field use. Extras in ICE packs.

1x package Nerve Agent Pretreatment (NAP) pills. Increase the efficiency of NAAK when taken on order before exposure. Issued for ODS in 91, but not for GWOT due to potential medical effects.

1x package antibiotic pretreatment. Issued for biological threats and started on order. Cipro, doxycycline, etc.; typical issue is 30 days supply with additional issued as unit determines (got 90 days in real issue).

That’s an individual rundown as best as I remember. I think the USAF, navy, and the aviators used a different mask and maybe over garment, but everything’s pretty similar. Throw in a random PT test, 20km footmarch and unit run in MOPP 4 and you’re good to go!

[Raellus]

Thanks for that detailed run-down, Homer. From that list, what MOPP gear would most 5th ID troops be likely to have on their persons after the division's destruction/during their escape from Kalisz?

-

[Higgipedia]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Thanks for that detailed run-down, Homer. From that list, what MOPP gear would most 5th ID troops be likely to have on their persons after the division's destruction/during their escape from Kalisz?

-

I would imagine little to none at that point. Earlier in the war, it'd be ubiquitous (although it's unclear if JSLIST would have been fielded by the time the bombs dropped). Two things work against holding onto it:

1.) If it's in any way damaged, it's useless. So wear and tear without resupply means you're wasting your time holding onto any suits with any tears, holes, etc.

2.) It's bulky and less comfortable. While JSLIST, to my understanding is far more comfortable than the old MOPP suits (I've only ever used JSLIST), it is still far less comfortable than BDUs. And they get really gross inside there real fast. The gas mask case is always in the way and even though it's designed to go on ALICE gear, it's a pain in the ass. Once it seems pretty clear that there are no more nukes dropping, I would definitely see troops dropping any of it. Maybe they'd keep some stored in a vehicle if they come into any kind of irradiated environment but at this point in the war where you aren't getting resupply, the value added of carrying a couple kilos of MOPP gear might not be worth the weight.

That's just my two cents, however. I was GWOT, not Cold War, so I don't know how indoctrinated into always having MOPP gear T2K soldiers would be.

[bash]

While this might be a bit morbid: I think a lot of the soldiers deployed with proper MOPP gear will have been vaporized by 2000. Post-TDM replacements will likely have older gear if they have anything at all. Units that have been in-theater from TDM onward will have long run out of consumables for their MOPP gear.

There would likely be enough supply for the PCs to be equipped, the 5ID might have scraped together supplies for their "raid" but the average NPC might only have makeshift gear.

[Homer]

With regards to indoctrination of the force, the mid-90s heavy force pretty much lived in MOPP 1 or 2 while in the field for major training events and always included periods in mask. In 2ID it was a given that mask and MOPP gear were part of most field uniforms, and there was an expectation to fight in a chemical environment from the start. Stateside, my first NTC rotation was done almost exclusively in MOPP. The light community tended to go more with BDUs and mask carrier unless it was required to be in a higher MOPP posture.

To opine on what would realistically be left, the JSLIST were good for (I think) 120 days without laundering days and 45 days with laundering and the CPOGS were good for 14 days. I never saw a JSLIST get laundered, but I can back up Higgipedia that they got pretty ripe pretty quick, even if all you wore underneath was ranger panties and a t shirt! I’m sure there’s a ton of NBC gear in stockpiles, but by 2000 those stockpiles are going to be depleted, incinerated, or difficult to distribute from without fuel. I agree soldiers are going to try to get rid of as much extra weight as possible, but I think they’d hold on to the chem gear as long as they perceived an NBC threat or as long as discipline in the unit held. The actual NBC threat may well be governed by declining stockpile availability.

While there are some field expedients for protective gear (a simple filter can be devised, and a poncho can provide some protection against liquid agent), stocks of NBC gear would likely become a theater managed item, like fuel, MREs, replacement combat vehicles, or specialty ammunition. Maybe one of the indicators that 5ID has something big in the future is the issue of extra chemical warfare gear to the unit in its cantonments during spring of 2000.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Homer

From memory, and what’s left of some notes, here’s a rundown of individual “go-to-war” MOPP issue circa mid 90s-mid 2000s.

If memory serves, we deployed with a partial issue (masks, filters, 2x jslist suits and a set of gloves and booties) and got the rest in theater from prepo. There was at least one turn in of some home station stuff to replace it with newer gear. We got the NAAKs, etc about a month out from crossing the berm, started wearing mask carrier and ICE Pack. By later trips, they were issuing the bare minimum again (didn’t even always carry mask).

1x M40 or M42 (mounted crewman) mask. The M42 is an M40 fitted with a hose, canister assembly, microphone plug in, and fitting for vehicle gas particular filter (GPFU). Mask stores in a case carried on the left side of the body (or in the top of the ruck if you’re a hardcore light fighter). The mask gets issued with clear and tinted ballistic outserts and a green tint laser outsert is also available. Also gets issued with a training C2 canister, and face form but those get ditched for real use. The case also comes with a waterproof bag for the mask, and manual. The mask uses a side mounted canister, and the D ring on the case serves as a wrench to swap out the voicemitter to left or right side. Mask was also fitted with a hood that covered head and neck, hooking under the armpits.

2-4 (SOP and books said three, actual issue was 4) “MOPP suits”. Either the old style Chemical Protective Overgarment (CPOG) in OD green or the newer Joint Service Lightweight Integrated Suit Technology (JSLIST) in woodland or 3 color desert. They came sealed in a vacuum pack that you broke open on order to don your first suit. Second suit traveled with you in an individual chemical equipment (ICE) pack; a woodland camo bag with extra JSLIST, boots, gloves, hood, helmet cover, decon wipes, and filter canister. Theoretically the ICE pack fit onto the back of LCE, but was usually put on the top of the ruck or assault pack. The third and fourth suits were typically carried in a duffel bag or palletized in the trains. The CPOG was good for four hours once exposed, while the JSLIST was good for 12 (I think); either way, the goal was to decontaminate and exchange to “clean” gear ASAP to get out of mask and gloves. Unlike Soviet style gear, the CPOG and JSLIST “breathed” to a degree.

3 sets of Nerve Agent Antidote Kit (NAAK). A clip with an auto injector of atropine and another of 2PAM CL. Carried in pocket of MOPP suit. Give yourself the first one if you’ve been exposed to nerve agent (small atropine then large 2PAM). Your buddy gives you the rest. Needles get bent through pocket flap to show medics what you’ve been given.

1 Convulsive Antidote Nerve Agent (CANA). Autoinjector carried in pocket of MOPP suit. Administered by your buddy after NAAK. Same drill with needles.

1xM291 Skin Decon Kit. A wallet of six skin decon wipes, two per decon. Carried in a hard plastic case that fits the pouch on the rear of the mask case. Can also clip onto LBE, etc. with a snap hook. Usually no problem getting more, they get expended in training. Decon powder turns skin black/grey.

1x M295 Decon Kit. Four vacuum sealed decon mitts used for personal equipment, weapons, etc. Two mitts per decon. Stains your gear black/grey. No problem getting more. Carried extras of both decon kits at 1 per ICE pack. Ready set in ruck, assault pack, or mopp gear pockets.

1x Book M8 detector paper. Turns color to indicate type of liquid agent. Put on stick or something and poke it in puddle of agent then read like litmus paper. Carried in pockets of mopp gear.

1x dispenser M9 detector paper. Light grey/green color with adhesive back. Turns color when exposed to liquid agent, but doesn’t classify type of agent. Taped on legs, arm, wrist of mopp gear. Also attached to vehicles. Extras of both types of paper issued.

3x C2 canisters. Filter for M40, screws on and off. Comes in sealed can with opening key- like a Spam can. Good for variable periods depending on agent, but goal is decon and exchange. Can change canisters in contaminated environment.
Extra canisters issued and carried in ICE packs.

1 pair butyl rubber gloves- like chemistry lab gloves. Left and right are interchangeable. Come with a white cotton liner for comfort and grip. Exchanged with mopp gear. Worn in Mopp 4.

1 pair over boots- these are identical to the black or green rain boots issued at CIF. Exchanged with mopp gear. Worn at mopp 2 or higher. Extras in ICE packs.

1x mask hood- OD green/gray issued with mask and exchanged with mopp gear. Extras in ICE packs.

1x helmet cover- Od green/gray, fits over combat helmet like a shower cap. Donned when exposure imminent. Exchanged with mopp gear. Can’t wear it and use helmet mounted nvgs. Put inside the Kevlar PASGT helmet it makes a good basin for field use. Extras in ICE packs.

1x package Nerve Agent Pretreatment (NAP) pills. Increase the efficiency of NAAK when taken on order before exposure. Issued for ODS in 91, but not for GWOT due to potential medical effects.

1x package antibiotic pretreatment. Issued for biological threats and started on order. Cipro, doxycycline, etc.; typical issue is 30 days supply with additional issued as unit determines (got 90 days in real issue).

That’s an individual rundown as best as I remember. I think the USAF, navy, and

The mask for the USAF was the MCU/2P, it was better than an M17 for driving.

[Higgipedia]

Originally Posted by Homer

Maybe one of the indicators that 5ID has something big in the future is the issue of extra chemical warfare gear to the unit in its cantonments during spring of 2000.

"So that's why they gave us ice cream."

[Homer]

Originally Posted by Higgipedia

"So that's why they gave us ice cream."

Here’s steak meal, by the way you’ve all been extended 90-180 days. Enjoy!