Weapon conversion question.

[Gideon020]

I've been lurking for a while and this forum's given me some good ideas, but I need some help on something. One of my players has something of a mad-on for the AA-12 shotgun and the Frag-12 explosive rounds and in a moment of weakness, either that or I was high on human kindness, I finally caved.

Now I can figure out some kind of fluff about both gun and ammo being super-rare, issued only to special forces, requiring some pretty tough rolls to find the stuff to make it in the field, and so on and so forth.

The real problem is I have no idea how to stat it up beyond grabbing the stats for the USAS-12 and Explosive Frag Shells off PMulcahy's website. Should I go with that and tell the player to like it or leave it, or does anyone have any advice on how I can actually expend some effort into making some decent stats?

[WallShadow]

If you want to swing to the other extreme, fudge up some stats that are workable, let him have his munchkinesque wet-dream weapon and ammo, then on a critical failure, have it jam/break. He will spend the rest of his game life trying (unsuccessfully) getting it fixed or finding ammo for it. You can use it as a pull to drag him and his buddies into lots of interesting situations--better than being pushed by that pesky Speznatz kill-squad.

To Dream the Impossible Dream.....

[Gideon020]

I was planning on having him pry it off the dead hands of some enemy soldier kitted in heavy body armour as well, so that works out nicely.

Thanks for the advice, this should shut him up. Who knows, maybe if he gets the hint, I'll let him find someone who can fix the gun so it can fire at least standard shot shells.

[Targan]

What timeline is your game set in, Gideon? If it's your standard T2k v1/v2/v2.2 timeline (and your game is occurring in 2000) the only AA-12s available will be the Atchisson originals, or MPS versions in prototype stage at best and there will be no such thing as Frag-12 ammunition (although I guess there may have been prototype batches manufactured before the war but you'd have to be desperate or insane to load and shoot 4 to 5 year old prototype explosive ammunition).

It would be making an already implausible backstory even more implausible not to have both weapon and ammo coming from the same stateside source so I guess if the player is to get what he wants, the weapon and ammo are going to have to be from an MPS test batch, possibly provided to the US military at least 8 years earlier than occurred in real life (and again implausibility rears its ugly head) because in RL the USMC only got to start testing the new MPS version of the AA-12 system in 2004.

If your campaign is set in the CONUS then I guess this whole scenario becomes slightly less implausible but if it's set in Europe how does an enemy soldier end up with such a rare weapon in useable condition with a big enough supply of incredibly rare, prototype ammunition that makes it worth taking into the field?

If your game is set in your own, custom timeline or T2013's timeline then all bets are off, I'm sure you can create a much more believable backstory.

[manunancy]

A quick look at wikipedia show up a possible alternative : the Daewoo-made USAS-12. It was in prdouction in the mid-nineties and it isn't too far-fetched fro one to have been 'liberated' on the eastern front and to filter back into the european theater.

[edited] oops I just saw you already know of the USAS-12. In my opinion the only difference in stat will be the magazine capacity (5/8 round magazine or 20/30 drum vs the 10 rounds magasine or 20 round drum of the USAS).

[Gideon020]

@ Targan: As entertaining as the original T2k timeline is, I prefer using a custom timeline as it allows a little more freedom when it comes to weapons, vehicles, and equipment.

That, and I don't like the T2013 ruleset.

But for the most part, I usually use the 'in-field testing' excuse for any rare weapons in Europe, Asia and the Middle East, the weapon had a limited production run, was issued to various units and improvements were supposed to be enacted from their reports in the field.

Frag-12's for instance would be given to special forces and defensive formations for light anti-vehicle work while the AA-12 might have been issued to a force that would see a lot of urban combat and thus would need a weapon with a lot of close-range stopping power when clearing buildings. And that's mostly from the top of my head. In most other cases, the weapon belongs to elite enemy squads and would have been liberated from bases, rear-area supply depots or testing facilities.

But you are correct, I wouldn't have likely caved if it was the canon timeline.

[stg58fal]

Steal the stats from the USAS-12 and adjust mag capacity, ROF, etc, or shamelessly rip off the H&K CAWS.

Then spend the rest of the campaign showing him just how friggin useless a shotgun is in combat outside of a very few instances.

Shotgun < rifle

There are a few good uses for them in urban warfare. I still prefer a rifle or SAW, but shotguns have some utility.

[James Langham]

A few random thoughts:

* See my article on US shotguns for back story on the AA12 being used

* Do the magazines fit any ammo pouches he has, reload times are higher if you need to get the mags out of a pack.

* Will the AA12 cycle the action with specialist rounds? Very few auto shotguns will reliably.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Some other real world considerations for the AA-12.

The magazine is noisy, the rounds seat well enough but it still rattles - so much for stealth

Reloading requires that the magazine slot into the strut in front of the trigger - try doing that at night, in the cold, with slippery hands - there's a reason most of the YouTube clips don't show them placing a fresh mag on the shotgun, because then you'd see the primary failing of the AA-12.



The magazine HAS to seat on that strut, otherwise it'll move around too much and weaken the mag catch because it's too heavy for the magazine well

The USAS-12 is every bit as good as the AA-12 with a much lower cost and better availability but it still hasn't been taken into service by any military/police agency in significant numbers.
So if the cops and the soldiers didn't buy the USAS-12, they wouldn't bother with the AA-12 especially given the weakness in the magazine setup... unless of course a slick ad campaign can convince the politicians that the AA-12 is the "World's deadliest shotgun!" and will rewrite the laws of urban combat

[Gideon020]

- I'll try and look it up, though a link if you have one would be nice, thank you.

-Nope, 32-round drums. If he wanted it so bad, he can deal with having to find a way to carry large, bulky ammo drums.

-According to some research I did, it should cycle reliably as the Frag-12 was developed to complement the AA-12, but the chance of jams are the same as any other automatic weapon I'd say. ALso, less-lethal rounds require cycling the chamber manually apparently.

And the mags have to be seated on a strut in front of the trigger eh? That gives me ideas. And somehow I'm not surprised that the shells would rattle.

Edit:

I decided to break the weapon at the end of the session by having the recoil mechanism fail and barrel warp due to it being used without even so much as cleaning and occasional servicing, requiring that he hunt down another AA-12 to repair it (one of the other players did have Gunsmith but I made it an Impossible roll unless they found replacement parts), and the real kicker? He practically dumped his Remington 800 and most of his spare 12-guage ammo just to carry five useless 32-round Frag-12 magazines which are now dead-weight.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Gideon020

I decided to break the weapon at the end of the session by having the recoil mechanism fail and barrel warp due to it being used without even so much as cleaning and occasional servicing, requiring that he hunt down another AA-12 to repair it (one of the other players did have Gunsmith but I made it an Impossible roll unless they found replacement parts), and the real kicker? He practically dumped his Remington 800 and most of his spare 12-guage ammo just to carry five useless 32-round Frag-12 magazines which are now dead-weight.

What fools these mortals be.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I did a check through my books because I vaguely recalled a comment from Marc Miller of GDW saying that Loren Wiseman was quite interested in the AA-12 when it was originally the Atchisson Assault 12gauge. Apparently that's the reason it's included in the T2k 2nd Ed. Infantry Weapons book.



If I remember what he said, there was some issue with getting the Atchisson into production and Loren Wiseman and some others from the GDW crew had put deposits down to purchase said shotgun but the money got wasted on moving the manufacturer's headquarters. So the info above about the shotgun having been made in Korea in limited numbers could be right from the direct experience of Mr Wiseman.

Anyway, the image above is obviously the entry from the Infantry Weapons book, take a look at the Availability - if nothing else, you can show your Player that page in the book and "prove" that his dream gun is as rare as rockinghorse s**t

[Gideon020]

Hmm, I'll have to see if I can find a copy of that book so I can use those stats, or at least a PDF. If not, I'll just use that pic instead.

Still though, thanks for the advice and such, its been a real big help to me.

[Rockwolf66]

I have an NPC who has an origional AA-12 shotgun. the only real modification they have done to it was to add a Duckbill choke to it. Unless they are clearing a house or guarding prisoners* She tends to use it as a secondary weapon.


*One single demonstration shot is usually enough to get groups of prisoners to behave as one shot will hit several people and there are alot of shells.

[headquarters]

players too well armed for ya? let em have a taste of their own medicine.

let the players encounter enemies with 12 gage auto shotguns with some speciality rounds in the mix - buck,slugs, sabots, flares, coarse salt whatever else..


if you can corner the party at cqb ranges it with baddies waiting for em around every other bend it usually makes taking point alot less attractive..



what ? a gm need his kicks to...

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by Gideon020

Edit:

I decided to break the weapon at the end of the session by having the recoil mechanism fail and barrel warp due to it being used without even so much as cleaning and occasional servicing, requiring that he hunt down another AA-12 to repair it (one of the other players did have Gunsmith but I made it an Impossible roll unless they found replacement parts), and the real kicker? He practically dumped his Remington 800 and most of his spare 12-guage ammo just to carry five useless 32-round Frag-12 magazines which are now dead-weight.

I have a vague memory of researching the AA-12 for a Morrow Project style game I was setting up and the player who wanted one found some videos on YouTube where they talked about the reliability of the weapon and how in tests they had fired a vast number of shells with it without ever needing to clean it.

If I'm right and you've got a picky and argumentative player then you might get challenged on that decision so be prepared to trash it in other ways!

[Rockwolf66]

Personally I am a fan of having weapons trashed in a fire fight, Heck drop a grenade round at the character's feet and say that the gun is damaged beyond use if the survive.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

Personally I am a fan of having weapons trashed in a fire fight, Heck drop a grenade round at the character's feet and say that the gun is damaged beyond use if the survive.

Absolutely. Also, in RL it's not unheard of for firearms to be struck by bullets during combat and rendered unusable. In-game it can make for a great love-hate situation for a PC - for instance, they lose their prized firearm but upon reflection realise that the bullet that struck their firearm would've hit them in the armpit, missing their kevlar and almost certainly leaving them mortally wounded.

[pmulcahy11b]

Most small arms ammunition drums have to be wound before firing. Anyone know if that's true of the AA-12's drum?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Targan

Absolutely. Also, in RL it's not unheard of for firearms to be struck by bullets during combat and rendered unusable. In-game it can make for a great love-hate situation for a PC - for instance, they lose their prized firearm but upon reflection realise that the bullet that struck their firearm would've hit them in the armpit, missing their kevlar and almost certainly leaving them mortally wounded.

And to take that further, use the 2013 rule whereby a Player can choose to have their PC sacrifice one important piece of gear rather than suffer a fatal gunshot.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by headquarters

what ? a gm need his kicks to...

I am sooooo with you on that!
Make the players work for what they get, don't pull punches (too often) and if the PCs can use special weapons and dirty tactics, so can their opponents!

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Most small arms ammunition drums have to be wound before firing. Anyone know if that's true of the AA-12's drum?

The AA-12 and USAS-12 drums do not need to be wound up. The only shotgun that has a "drum like" magazine that has to be wound is the Striker-12/Streetsweeper shotguns. The Protecta's which are newer versions of the Striker-12 do not have wind them either.