Fiddle's Green

[dragoon500ly]

Wondered when somebody would catch that!

Here's another little gem...during the period 1938-1945, the Germans produced some 89,000 armored fighting vehicles of all types. Even in 1945, when communications and transport within Germany were almost at a standstill, the Germans were still able to produce some 5,592 AFVs (with a production goal of 23,000 AFVs by the end of the year), within less than three months. Soviet production of AFVs during the war years was some 125,000, most produced under primitive conditions following the move to the Urals. By comparsion, the US produced some 48,000 Shermans

[Panther Al]

Well, I am known as Panther Al for a reason: I know that tank inside out like you wouldn't believe.

As to the Leo's, both the 1 and the 2 are Porsche designs. They are perhaps one of the best armour design firms around. Though they don't advertise that fact: after all, it doesn't quite fit in with 911's and such now does it?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Well, I am known as Panther Al for a reason: I know that tank inside out like you wouldn't believe.

See there is this problem with the carburetors................

[Panther Al]

Those shouldn't have been an issue: the design is sound. What was happening as the years went on, is materials. Using quality materials, all the various bits performed exactly to spec or better.

If there was any failure points, these are it:

Final Drives.

Where the Panther was designed to be 30 tons, even the designers didn't buy that. They budgeted a 50% increase by the time it hit the field. Good thing too, as they was right in that regard. However, the Final Drives was overlooked. Those was still rated for 30 tons. Now, they beefed them up, so they could (and on occasion last forever under combat conditions - crew quality was key) handle it, but it was at the *very* limit of its capabilities. And the Final Drives are tied into all sorts of mobility issues that the Panther would have at times.

At first, the engines had issues - pumps and head seals mostly - but with the P30 motor, those was no longer an issue.

The last issue was 3rd Gear. Seriously. That gear for some reason was always the first one to die, and die often.

Other than that, all the issues was all tied to substandard material quality, be it parts or what they was made out of.

[dragoon500ly]

not to mention problems with the air intakes and engine exhaust...early model Panthers would often have engine problems whenever they moved through overgrown areas, the reason, Panther A was built with no screens over the air intake fans, pine needles et al would get sucked into the engine and "tankee no goee", the crews simply welded a bucket upside down over the intakes and then punched a few dozen holes, ad hoc filter, but it worked.

The exhaust was another story, Panther A would often enjoy that "cherry red" look on its pipes, not a godd thing during those night moves...Panther G went with an armored cover and fan to reduce exhaust temps.

Still, teething problems with new equipment!

[Panther Al]

Yes and no.

While the exhaust pipes are a fact of life for the panther, the motor issues wasn't attributed to the A - and the chicken wire story isn't quite true either.

Unlike what you would think, the Developmental History of the Panther went thusly:

Panther Ausf D (some use the lower case d, german documents use both).

210001 - 210254 MAN
211001 - 211250 Daimler-Benz
212001 - 212130 Henschel
213001 - 213220 MNH

It was midway through the production run that the Motor (Which did have most of the issues Dragoon mentioned as well as the others) was changed from the Maybach HL210 P30 to the Maybach HL230 P30. The 230 was a much better motor overall, as long as the raw materials lived up to spec as well as the quality controls - as the war wore on both of these fell in quality.

Panther II

2 Prototypes built by MAN, one of which is in the Patton Museum.

Never entered production - but the work that was done on it influenced the A to a small degree, and the G to a large degree.

Panther Ausf A. Same hull as the D, but with a new turret. A lot of features was added during this run: in my mind its the best of the lot: High Quality Manufacturing standards, a collection of really useful production improvements, with very little wartime simplifications to make it cheaper and easier to build.

210255 - 210899 MAN
151901 - 152575 Daimler-Benz
154801 - 155630 MNH
158101 - 158150 Demag-Benrath

Panther Ausf G. Same turret as the A, but a new hull that was based largely off of the Panther II's hull. Here, there was a lot of simplifications that started to reduce, in my opinion, the qualities that make the Panther Great. But there was a few silver linings: Namely the hull shape. While it was meant to make it faster to build, it was a honest improvement overall. As well, the addition late in the run of the Mantlet Lip to prevent rounds glancing into the hull roof, and of course, the heater built into the engine compartment that solved a host of issues.

120301 - MAN
124301 - * Daimler-Benz
128301 - MNH

And Finally,

Panther Ausf F. Now, why would I add the Paper Panther? After all, it never did enter production yes?

Well... sorta.

MAN, D-B, MNH, Krupp, and Nibelungenwerk was to begin production, staggering start dates, in March of 45. None, save for D-B, actually did so. Hence the * in the above G SN list. However, even there, the F wasn't really produced either.

Whats this Panther Al you ask? They did but they didn't? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot over?

The F was supposed to be built on a modified G hull, with a totally new Turret. The Turret did start production, but none was turned over to the factories since the optics for it was never started in time before the war ended. However, Daimler Benz did start to receive the plates for the hull modifications for the F, and following the Standard Practice of last in, first out (Which BTW makes for a lot of fun in IDing production data of german tanks let me tell you), they did produce F hulls in random with G hulls during the last month or so of the war. In fact, at the end of the war, there was a pic of the DB line where you can see F hulls interspaced with G hulls on the line. Daimler Benz managers say they don't know for certain if any actually was issued, but they dis believe that it was very possible that a very small number was issued to II./PzR 2 for the defence of Berlin between the dates of 20-23 April (Where the factory was located).

Also, in the Ruhr, Hulls for the F was captured while still in the welding jigs, so there is a small possibility that a handful was delivered to MAN - but they did not enter the line as far as anyone knows.

Paper Panthers!

Yes, the German Uber Alles crap that some folks go for is here. Though to be fair, there really wasn't a lot in this category for the panther, excepting the weapon carriers that was shelved in late 43 to early 44, so they don't count.

There was a number of things they was shooting for - and mostly, they wasn't too out there either. Nightvision of course, which did see the field in small numbers, as well as new optics in general.

In addition, there was some effort towards mounting the 8.8cm Kw.K 43 L/71 in a schmalturm, which in my opinion was silly: it didn't make sense to cram a larger gun in a turret designed to be even smaller.

Maybach HL234 Motor. Oh, my.. what a could have been this is. It was discovered during the development of the HL230 that if any part of the motor was a failure point it was, as Dragoon and others pointed out, the Carburettor. It was decided then though, that careful attention to the quality control standards would suffice to keep it from being an issue. To be fair, that's correct. However, they did forget there was a war on...

However, Maybach had immediately started work on a new motor just in case: the 234. With the call to keep with the 230, they cut back on the development of it till they discovered that, hey - there is a war on, and that plays hell with the supply chain, and further, maybe they aught to have a look at that old plan B. This engine could have been introduced with Panther A, and what it was capable of is outstanding. Instead of the 750 horsepower of the 230, it was rated at 900, it was designed with wartime production in mind in regards to build quality, and coupled with the inclusion of fuel injection, actually got much better gas milage. This would have given the Panther the Power to Weight Ratio equal to that of a Hellcat. Not too shabby.

[dragoon500ly]

Panther D: the initial designs were by Daimler-Benz and MAN with the turret being built by Rheinmettall-Borsig. Hitler made the decision to go with the Daimler-Benz Panthers with an initial order of 200. Hitler then backpedaled his decision and went with the MAN design, in the initaial troop trails they were so many defects uncovered that in April 1943, all issues were stopped and the Panthers that were issued were recalled for MAJOR modifications. In May 1943, the 51st and 52nd Panzerabteilungen were issued the Panther D, just in time for the Battle of Kursk. Virtually all Panther Ds went to these two independent battalion as well as the 23rd and 26th Panzer Regiments (Independent) and the panzer regiments of the Das Reich (2nd SS PzGren Div) and Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler (1st SS PzGren Division). ID features were the small TC coupula, the direct vision slot for the driver and the so-called "letterbox" hull machinegun port. Roughly 850 were built

Panther A: This was the 2nd series of production model, essentially it was D run with minor modifications. The TCs cupola received a new design (more periscopes), the running gear was strengthed. There were also over a dozen modifications to the drive train, the engine exhaust received its first cooling modification and the hull mg flap was replaced with a ball mount (retrofitted to surviving "D"s, although many "A"s kept the old flap throughout the war). The ammo-loading hatch on the left side opf the turret was deleted and the fire-control was updated. About 2,000 were produced from August 1943-May 1944.

Panther G: This was the 3rd production run and it involved some major redesign work. The hull was modified with thicker armor on the upper hull side and this was now a one-piece casting oinstead of the previous three-piece. The driver's direct vision slot was deleted and his seat was modified to allow him to raise and lower it so that he could drive with his head outside of his hatch. The pivoting hatches were replaced with hinged hatches for the driver and radio operator. Faced with a growing shortage of rubber, the "silent bloc" steel rimmed roadwheels were introduced. Yet more mods to the drive train as well as a gearbox oil cooler. The hull ammo racks were replaced with armored bins. The crew compartment was fitted with a heater system and the flame-trap exhaust muffler were fitted, eliminating the exhaust pipe problem. The turret came in for further modification, with the introduction of the "chin" mantlet which prevented hits on the lower portion of the matlet from being deflected through the thinner armor over the driver/radio operator. Some 3,126 were built in between March 1944-April 1945.

Panther F: This was supposed to be the fourth production run, but all accounts that I've seen state that no production was made and only the prototype turrets were completed. There is notation that one or two of these turrets were fitted to G hulls and used in the fighting in Berlin, but I've seen no photo evidence. The turret was called the "Schmal" (narrow) and was designed to have the smallest possible frontal area (and thicker armor). It would have the same size turret ring as the older turret. It was fitted with an optical rangefinder and it was planned that the Schmal turret could be refitted with the 88mm cannon.

Panzerbefehlswagen Panther: This was the command tank version of the Panther, 329 were converted from May 1943 to April 1945. It was designed to be as inconspicuous as possible when in action, unlike previous designs of command tanks, it retained its main armament, simply adding an additional radio for the company commander. In addition to the normal pole antenna, a second pole and a star antenna were added.

Panzerbeobachtungswagen Panther: This was the forward observor version of the Panther. Some 41 were converted. The main armament was deleted (replaced by a dummy tube) and a ball mount for the former co-axial machine gun. A rangefinder was added and a range plotting table fitted inside the turret. In addition to the normal pole antenna, a second pole and a star antenna were added.

Jagdpanther: This was a heavy tank destroyer that mounted the 88mm PaK L71 gun on a panther chassis. Production srated in January 1944-March 1945 and 392 were built. The turret was deleted and a superstructure was built up from the existing upper hull and side plates of the Panther. The drive train was modified with the installation of a heavy-duty transmission. The jagdpanther was issued to the troops in June 1944 but was never issued in large numbers until the Ardennes Offensive in December 1944. They were assigned to two panzerjagerabteilungen (the 559th and 654th), to the panzer regiments of some seven Panzer divisions, to the Guhrer Grenadier Division and to an independent Panzer brigade.

Panzer Bergegerat (Panther): The armored recovery vehicle version of the panther. Some 232 were built from June 1943 to September 1944 with 6 eing conveted from Pather A and another 107 from Panther G from September 1944 to March 1945. This was the hull of aPanther with a small superstructure built in place of the turret. it was equipped with a 40-ton capacity winch, and 1.5-ton derrick as well as a spade to stablizie the vehicle when using its derrick. Each tank regiment would have from 2-4 Bergepanthers.

Planned versions...

The Flakpanzer 341 was a Panther with its turret replaced by a new turret, mounting twin 37mm FlaK 43 antiaircraft guns. A wooden mockup of the new turret was built, but it never saw production.

Sturmpanther had the 75mm cannon replaced by the 150mm StuH 43/1. Never entered production.

Jagdpanther Starr: a modification of the Jagdpanther with the 88mm cannon being mounted on a rigid mount (similar to that used on the Hetzer tank destroyers).


Panther II: this was a 47-ton version of the Panther with heavier armor. It was delayed to to a design to co-ordinate with the Tiger II, a decision that prevented the Panther II from seeing troop service. Two prototypes were built, one, with a normal Panther turret currently being at the Patton Museum. The turret slated for use with the Panther II would have been the Schmal turret, fitted with the 88mm gun.

source is the "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII"

[Panther Al]

Only a handful of A's recieved the letterbox MG port: mostly because of the last in, first out that made up german panzer production.

Steel Road Wheels was introduced: mainly as a material saving method, however, they was scarce as hens teeth as the original version of them had some major issues regarding lifespan. Improved versions was due to enter production and be installed on (in various designs) all Panzers by the end of March 45. In all the factories producing the Panther upon capture, there was still only rubber roadwheels on the line.

While some prototype turrets was produced, its pretty conclusive that none saw combat service: and thats due to there was only one set of the optics for the turret ever being made, and it never left the Ziess factory. Now, some of the "F" hulls (Again, a modified G hull with the ball MG mount replaced with a ball StG44 mount, sliding roof hatches, and 40mm thick roof armour.) was on line in the DB facility as well as in the early stages at the MAN facility - photo proof of this exists. MAN and DB engineers, when questioned after the war confirmed that no true F's was ever produced, though some of the hulls, as mentioned earlier, may have seen service.

There is no records of true Artillery observation Panthers being built save for a prototype: All the panthers produced by all facilities are accounted for in either issue reports, as well as acceptance documents. While it is possible some was used in the role, they would have been in all likely hood standard Panthers seconded over. The Artillery arm itself, decreed that no panthers would be used by them in order to ensure availability for the Panzer Forces.


Sources: Jentz, Spielberger, Doyle, and copies of German Documents I scored ages ago when I got bit by the panther bug.

[dragoon500ly]

Nothing like a good tank debate to get the day started!!!

The Heer in WWII always struck me as the best example of too many cooks, in too many kitchens, with a common goal, but taking every possible avenue to get there. Calling it utter chaos doesn't even begin to describe the situation.

Not counting a certain design from WWI, German tank design really kicks off in 1927 with the WD Schlepper 25PS (37mm SPAT) and the WD Schlepper 50PS (77mm how), these were little more than lightly armored (3mm) tracters with their weapons mounted on pedestals, both saw service with the Heer, but in very limited numbers, sources range from less than 30 to as many as 100.

In 1929 the next design was the Leichtertraktor which mounted a 37mm gun in a rotating turret, armor was light(3-6mm) and only two protypes were ever ordered. This was further developed in in 1932 some 40 were in service.

In 1930 came the Grosstraktor, this was a much larger vehicle mounting the 75mm L24 gun and was the vehicle used in Kama USSR for testing. Some 24 were built and served through the war as parade monuments.

1933 saw the Neubaufahzeug, the German entry into the multi-turreted tank race (armed with a 75mmL24, a 37mm L45 and a coax in the main turret and two secondary mg turrets). Three were built and saw service in the invasion of Norway in 1940, where one was destroyed.

These three designs were never intended as combat vehicles, but rather as test beds to give the designers, production lines and the troops some experience with tanks.

source is the "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII"

[Panther Al]

Exactly!

It wasn't till Speer came in and saw the state of German Armour Development before someone with sense took a look at things and said "Whoa: Is there a reason we have 12 different hatch designs? Is there a reason we have 7 different 75mm chamberings? Why not just have one of each?" before things started getting better (The Panther G was built with commonality with the Tiger 2 in mind - not much, but some). The PaperPanzer E series was a perfect example of where Wa Pruef 6 wanted to go: everything exactly the same as much as possible.

[dragoon500ly]

The first real panzer, issued in any sort of real numbers, was the Panzerkampfwagen I. This was a “tankette” design with a 2-man crew and armed with a turret mounting two 7.92mm mgs. Initial weight, combat loaded was 5.4 tons and it had a road speed of 37-40km/h and a road range of 140-150km. Armor ranged from 13mm to 6mm. It was produced in fourteen versions

Introduced in 1934 was the Panzerkampfwagen I A ohne Aufbau, this was a turretless version set up for driver training. 15 were built in between February and April 1934.

Introduced in 1934, the Panzerkampfwagen IA was the first mass-produced German tank. 816 were built between July 1934 and June 1936. It saw combat service in Poland, France, Denmark, Norway, Finland and North Africa. It was plagued by engine-cooling problems that resulted in at least three different fixes.

The PzKpfw IB was introduced in 1935 and featured a longer chassis (weight going up to 5.8 tons) and a re-designed rear deck to correct the overheating problems of the IA. 675 were built between August 1935 and June 1937. It saw combat service in Poland, France, Denmark, Norway, Finland and North Africa.

PzKpfw IB ohne Aufbau was a maintenance vehicle produced from June 1936 to November 1938, with some 164 being built. The turret and upper supers truce was removed and replaced with a simple structure. It was issued with 2 per panzer company until 1941 when it was too small to serve as a recovery vehicle, it was then reconfigured as a driver training vehicle.

Kleine Panzerbefehehlswagen was a IB with the turret removed and replaced with a taller superstructure. Weight was increased to 5.9 tons and it sported a 3-man crew. Armament was a single mg in a ball mount. This was a headquarters vehicle for the company commander and it served in this role into early 1941. It was withdrawn from the companies at this time and served until late 1942 with battalion and higher headquarters.

The Munitionsschlepper auf Panzerkampfwagen IA was a tracked ammunition carrier that was converted from 51 IA chassis in September 1939. It served in the Poland and Fracne campaigns.

15cm sIG33(Sf) auf Panzerkampfwagen IB were 38 converted IB hulls (February 1940), the turret was removed and a firing platform, protected by armor shields on three sides. Armament was the standard sIG33 150mm infantry support howitzer (on its normal field carriage). Intended to support the panzergrenadiers as a direct fire weapon, these served with Panzer Divisions 1-6 in Belgium, Holland and France. It remained in service at least through 1943 with Panzer Division 5 in Russia. Weight went up to 8.5 tons and it had a 4-man crew.

The Panzerkampfwagen IC was a prototype for an airborne recon vehicle. It replaced the old Camden-Loyld system with overlapping road wheels and a new track design. Combat weight was 8 tons, road sped was 79km/h and road range was 300km. Armament was changed to a 13mm mg and a co-axial 7.92mm mg. 40 were built between July and December 1942. Two saw service in Russia with Panzer Division 1, the remaining 38 with the LVIII Panzer Reserve Corps.

The 4.7cm PaK(t)(SF) auf Panzerkampfwagen I B was another conversion of the IB, the turret was removed and replaced with a pedestal mount for a47mm L43.4mm antitank gun (former Czech Army). Crew was increased to 3 men and the combat weight went up to 6.4 tons. It served in Belgium, France and North Africa until being phased out in 1943.

The last version was the PzKpfw IF was a major redesign of the vehicle. Combat weight went up to 21 tons, road speed went down to 25km/h. Armor protection ranged from 80mm to 25mm. 30 were built between April and December 1942. Like the IC, it had overlapping road wheels and a wider track. Eight saw service with Panzer Division 1 in Russia.

The PzKpfw Is helped train the Panzertruppen and served well in the earlier years of the war until 1942, most of these vehicles were scrapped or converted into Munitionsschlepper auf Panzerkampfwagen 1a und 1b. A divisional-level rebuild that stripped the turret and added a large steel box to carrier supplies. Most of these conversions served on the Eastern Front for the rest of the war.

The early German propganda films made a lot of noise about the “deadly effect” of the PzKpfw I, reality was very different. The Heer realized that the tankette design was never anything more than a stop gap doomed to support the infantry, or at most, serving in a recon role. An examination of the tanks assignments to oanzer Group Kleist (the panzer group during the French 1940 campaign) illustrate this, of the five panzer divisions present, three had strengths of 30 PzKpfw Is each, two had strengths of only 10 each. The primary strength of the 1940 campaign was the gun armed PzKpfw II.

source is the "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII"

[dragoon500ly]

Towards the end of the Cold War, those fun-loving guys at FMC Corporation decided to explore the possibilites of the Bradley, three versions actually reached prototype stage:

The Combat Vehicle Armament System Technology (CVAST) redesigned the turret of the Brad and mounted an Aeries 35mm Talon cannon. First tested in 1984, the new turret was not placed in production since it was felt that the larger caliber gun was not needed.

An offshoot of CVAST was a plan to take advantage of recent advances in polymer composites and ceramic armor witht he intent of replacing much of the Brad's existing armor. This new armor package would have resulted in a substantial weight reduction, enhanced crew survival, reduced manufacturing cost, and decreases in maintenance due to less corrosion and metal fatigue. It was killed by Congress due to budget concerns.

As the Army announced the retire of the M-551 Sheridan and the requirements of the Armored Gun System, FMC submitted a light tank based on the Bradley and M113 components. The Close Combat Vehicle, Light (CCVL) used a three man-crew (loader was replaced by an autoloader). It was armed with the M-68 105mm Cannon (fitted with a multi-baffle muzzle brake) and used laminated armor similar to that fitted to the Bradley A@. The CCVL could withstand hits of up to 30mm over a 60 degree froontal arc, wiits flanks and rear protected against HMG. two sixteen-barreled smoke grenade launchers were mounted on either side of the turret. Secondary armament consisted of a M-240C 7.62mm machine gun. Combat weight was 20 tons and it was fitted witha 575hp Detroit Diesel Allison that gave the CCVL a top speed of 45mph and a combat range of 300 miles. Of real intrest was its ability to be loaded into a C-130 transport and delviered via the Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System (LAPES). This is the vehicle that placed second, losing to the M-8.

The final variant, and the one that really caught a lot of intrest is teh M-987 Fighting Vehicle System (FVS). This is the Chassis of the M-993 MLRS without the launchers and replaced with a payload area that could accept a wide variety of "pods", six versions were initially planned:

M-993 Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS)

M-987 Forward Area Armored Logistics System (FAALS): a armored box (with crane) that allowed the protected transport of fuel, ammunition or other necessary supples to front line troops. Could be fitted with a weapons station for a M-2HB.

M-987 Armored Maintenance Vehicle (AMV): This pod allowed the transport of mechanics, tools and spare parts in apod, similar in shape to the FAALS. Fitted witha 7.5-ton capacity crane at the rear, it acould change power packs and gun tubes. This would save time in repairing and returning to sevice damaged vehicles as the AMV would be able to repair vehicles at the battalion level, and not have to tow such vehicles back to rear areas. Armed with a M-2HB and smoke grenade launchers.

M-987 Electronic Fighting Vehicle System (EFVS): This pod was designed for commanders and carried a wide vareity fo communications packages, electronic components and computers. Was also fitted with a remotely activated telescoping mast with antenna that reaches up to 70 feet.

M-987 Firefighter: This version uses a Hughes phased array surveillance radar for counterbattery locatiing of enemy artillery, mortar and rockets.

M-987 Long Range Anti-Tank Program (LRAT): This pod uses a telescoping 50 foot mast linked to a Martin Marietta Target Acquisition and Designation System. It was intended to act as a "forward controller" for Hellfire/ADATS missiles.

Sourcesinclude promo flyers from FMC as well as personnel observation.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

An offshoot of CVAST was a plan to take advantage of recent advances in polymer composites and ceramic armor witht he intent of replacing much of the Brad's existing armor. This new armor package would have resulted in a substantial weight reduction, enhanced crew survival, reduced manufacturing cost, and decreases in maintenance due to less corrosion and metal fatigue. It was killed by Congress due to budget concerns.

In other words, “The people who paid for me to get here are concerned that the proposed changes will mean less money in their pockets. Sorry, Joe. My job security is more important than your life.”

[dragoon500ly]

LOL!

Congressmen....during wartime, the plan is to drop them into enemy territory to cause havoc and force the enemy to surrender.

Of course this could be considered to be "Crimes Against Humanity"....

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

LOL!

Congressmen....during wartime, the plan is to drop them into enemy territory to cause havoc and force the enemy to surrender.

Of course this could be considered to be "Crimes Against Humanity"....

Don't forget the lawyers! And the HMO executives, who will be in every aid station and field hospital, telling you whether or not the care you're giving to each soldier is covered by their policy.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Don't forget the lawyers! And the HMO executives, who will be in every aid station and field hospital, telling you whether or not the care you're giving to each soldier is covered by their policy.

Kinda transends Crimes against Humanity and goes into the realm of Crimes Against Everything...