T2K Cuisine - Food in the aftermath

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by headquarters

..and you will again..

..if you are LUCKY!!

really...we can nuke manila again.....
.aaaarghlhglglh (homer simpson sound)

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by Littlearmies

Funnily enough we have a veggie who works in our office and at our office party I asked if the reason she was a vegetarian was moral or because she didn't like eating cute furry animals or she just didn't like meat. She replied that she didn't think it was moral to kill something else just so she could eat. So I said if an animal just died of old age would she be okay with eating it then - she thought about and said she couldn't see why not.

So I bought her this for her birthday a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Original-Roa.../dp/0898152003

It's actually pretty practical!

Malc

priceless

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I'm definitely not a vegetarian, but I'm not a hunter either. It's cowardice more than anything else -- I can't stand to look an animal in the eye (or even the ass) and shoot it, though I've done it in the past (along with some snaring and trapping) and could do it in the future. It's the duality of man; I love animals, yet I eat them too -- I just don't want to hunt them myself.

this descirbes me to perfectly.....why hunt when I can buy it in the store.....and hunting in norway is ffing cold too...not my cup of tea really....but I like to fish from boat though...I even have a boat...

it's the one on the pier.

this is the boathouse we have sessions in each summer.btw.

[General Pain]

bleak coffee hahahahah

[General Pain]

[Webstral]

To spice up any dish, add salt and fresh-ground people.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by General Pain

bleak coffee hahahahah

And they even offer to bread Jane and butter her...for when you really want to make a good impression on your first date...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by General Pain

this descirbes me to perfectly.....why hunt when I can buy it in the store.....and hunting in norway is ffing cold too...not my cup of tea really....but I like to fish from boat though...I even have a boat...

it's the one on the pier.

this is the boathouse we have sessions in each summer.btw.

I'm not even giving you the link to the aerial view of my house on Google Maps...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Jest

I just didn't know you could eat pine needles. In fact, I couldn't even imagine it and that's why I asked. I thought it was something else. Thanks.

They're best brewed as a tea, according to my survival instructors. Still tastes like something I left behind in the toilet.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Littlearmies

Funnily enough we have a veggie who works in our office and at our office party I asked if the reason she was a vegetarian was moral or because she didn't like eating cute furry animals or she just didn't like meat. She replied that she didn't think it was moral to kill something else just so she could eat. So I said if an animal just died of old age would she be okay with eating it then - she thought about and said she couldn't see why not.

Inform her that throughout our evolution, meat has been the main power behind the development of our big brains -- or would she prefer to still be an Australopithecus Robustus, hoping some other animal didn't eat her?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Inform her that throughout our evolution, meat has been the main power behind the development of our big brains -- or would she prefer to still be an Australopithecus Robustus, hoping some other animal didn't eat her?

I understand your point completely Paul but Robustus wasn't one of our direct ancestors, it was one of the Hominid species that co-existed with our direct ancestor Homo Habilis. Well that seems to be the current scientific consensus anyway (when I was younger it was believed that Australopithecus Africanus and Robustus co-existed). It is fairly certain that we and Robustus both descended from the more gracile lines of Australopithecus but our line didn't have the big sagittal crests that Robustus and Australopithecus Boisei had (needed to attach those big herbivore jaw muscles to the top of the skull).

I agree with you on the brain development point. Even though Robustus probably had a very basic level of tool use they almost certainly never developed the use of fire or spoken language before they died out leaving no descendants.

[sglancy12]

I have a real fascination with the idea of cuisine ala TW2K.

Personally I never much cared for the drought that's supposed to show up and knock the whole country back to Ethiopian/Somali levels of famine. I think the country will have problems enough being knocked back to 19th century levels of industrialization, transport, farming and medicine. Throw in political chaos and there's plenty of chaos and starvation for everyone.

Anyways, two things stand out for me concerning post TW2K food. The first is the return to "Regional Cuisine." With no transport net, and no refrigeration, most places are going to revert to regional cuisine. All food will be whatever can be grown and prepared locally. No more olive oil unless you've got olive trees in the neighborhood. No more orange juice in Indiana. No more lobster in Kansas.

The second thing that stands out is technology of food preservation. With electrical supplies non-existent or critically rationed, food can't simply be preserved by refrigeration. Your going to have to keep your meat fresh by keeping it alive until the day you plan to eat it. Otherwise you are going to have to become adept at smoking and preserving meat. Then there are preserved fruits... and lost arts like canning suddenly come into play.

Grain can be stored long-term... but that means you need cats to keep your rats at bay. Not sure how long flour last... but you've got to keep the bugs out of it. Any cereal or grains can be preserved indefinitely if it's turned into alcohol.

Alcohol is perhaps the greatest preserver of labor in the post TW2K world. Lots of labor went into creating that grain. But it might not last if it's not consumed or if it gets moldy, or attacked by vermin. Once it's been distilled into alcohol it can be preserved indefinitely. You've also turned an agricultural product into something that can be used as an antiseptic, a pain killer and a fuel... not to mention a great way to forget about how sucky the Post TW2K world is. Marvelous trade good that ethanol.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Webstral]

Some good points about regional cuisine, et al.

Pottery was developed specifically in response to the threat rodents pose to stored grain. This is not to say that cats don't have their place. (I hear them's good eatin') However, any dry container impervious to the teeth of mice and rats should do. Keeping the bugs out is a bit more of a trick, though far from impossible.

On a different subject, jalapeno peppers have more vitamin C than oranges and more vitamin A than carrots. A diet with lots of jalapenos is a) less bland and b) a good substitute for the fruits than cannot be obtained from Yuma because the Mexicans own the orchards. I'm definitely adding jalapenos to the list for Thunder Empire. Perhaps with some chipotles thrown in, the survivors in southeastern Arizona will hardly notice that civilization is on its knees.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

I understand your point completely Paul but Robustus wasn't one of our direct ancestors, it was one of the Hominid species that co-existed with our direct ancestor Homo Habilis. Well that seems to be the current scientific consensus anyway (when I was younger it was believed that Australopithecus Africanus and Robustus co-existed). It is fairly certain that we and Robustus both descended from the more gracile lines of Australopithecus but our line didn't have the big sagittal crests that Robustus and Australopithecus Boisei had (needed to attach those big herbivore jaw muscles to the top of the skull).

I agree with you on the brain development point. Even though Robustus probably had a very basic level of tool use they almost certainly never developed the use of fire or spoken language before they died out leaving no descendants.

The reason I used A. Robustus as an example is that Robustus is the sort of thing you get when you have a pre-human creature that subsists primarily on vegetable matter. You don't evolve a big brain that way. Considering what we did to this planet, maybe it would have been for the better if pre-humans decided not to eat meat...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Webstral

To spice up any dish, add salt and fresh-ground people.

Webstral

Nibbling on pieces of Egyptian mummies was once considered good for you, though an expensive indulgence.

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Pottery was developed specifically in response to the threat rodents pose to stored grain. This is not to say that cats don't have their place. (I hear them's good eatin') However, any dry container impervious to the teeth of mice and rats should do. Keeping the bugs out is a bit more of a trick, though far from impossible.

Suddenly all that Tupperware that's just laying around doesn't seem all that useless anymore. Containers like that would be critical for keeping the vermin out of your food. And they won't be making any new ones for quite a while, what with any petroleum products likely being used to create engine lubricants rather than fuel. You can't lube an engine with ethanol...

Interesting how things players would normally step over (i.e. anything that isn't ammo, fuel or weapons) would be critical for another groups survival. It would be a really interesting TW2K campaign focused on a group of professional scavangers/salvagers... going from place to place either recovering or trading for the materials that communities need to survive. One community's garbage would be another communities gold, and the difference between the two could be as little as ten or twenty miles.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by sglancy12

I have a real fascination with the idea of cuisine ala TW2K.

Personally I never much cared for the drought that's supposed to show up and knock the whole country back to Ethiopian/Somali levels of famine. I think the country will have problems enough being knocked back to 19th century levels of industrialization, transport, farming and medicine. Throw in political chaos and there's plenty of chaos and starvation for everyone.

Anyways, two things stand out for me concerning post TW2K food. The first is the return to "Regional Cuisine." With no transport net, and no refrigeration, most places are going to revert to regional cuisine. All food will be whatever can be grown and prepared locally. No more olive oil unless you've got olive trees in the neighborhood. No more orange juice in Indiana. No more lobster in Kansas.

The second thing that stands out is technology of food preservation. With electrical supplies non-existent or critically rationed, food can't simply be preserved by refrigeration. Your going to have to keep your meat fresh by keeping it alive until the day you plan to eat it. Otherwise you are going to have to become adept at smoking and preserving meat. Then there are preserved fruits... and lost arts like canning suddenly come into play.

Grain can be stored long-term... but that means you need cats to keep your rats at bay. Not sure how long flour last... but you've got to keep the bugs out of it. Any cereal or grains can be preserved indefinitely if it's turned into alcohol.

Alcohol is perhaps the greatest preserver of labor in the post TW2K world. Lots of labor went into creating that grain. But it might not last if it's not consumed or if it gets moldy, or attacked by vermin. Once it's been distilled into alcohol it can be preserved indefinitely. You've also turned an agricultural product into something that can be used as an antiseptic, a pain killer and a fuel... not to mention a great way to forget about how sucky the Post TW2K world is. Marvelous trade good that ethanol.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

Scott,

I totally agree about regional cuisine. But it is a plan for trade in the future eh?

Food preservation is NOT as difficult as many think it would be. The 'easiest' is drying, provided you have weather that cooperates. All meat, vegetable, and fruits can be dried. It has been done for milleniums with success. Yes, there will be a learning curve involved, but it's doable. Salt for curing will be come worth more than gold, bullets, or what ever... it could become a 'currency' as in the days of the Romans. Smoking is not a way of preservation per se, rather a means to keep vermin from what you are drying, plus with good wood ads greatly to the palatability.. same with salt.. salt is used to draw out moisture to speed the drying.

Canning comes in second IMO to drying as you need more materials to do it and the real drawback is the lids for canning jars.. you can reuse the jars, but the lids are not safe for second use.. not to say it can't or hasn't been done, but botulism is a problem.

Grains and legumes (beans) can be stored for a period of time, best in sealed containers, such as the METAL garbage cans with lids fastened down. Rodents WILL gnaw through plastics!!! They have taken wheat from Egyptian tombs 3000 yrs old and they were still edible.. but not sure of viability. In reguards to flour/meal, it is best to keep levels to a minimum and grind what you need from the whole grain. Whole ground flour goes rancid due to the oils from the germ..

IMO alcohol is greatly overrated. You would NOT distill grains needed for human consumption to make alcohol. If the grain is not fit for human/animal consumption, then yes.. but generally no... Food growing will be done by hand for some period after fuel runs out. And unless stored in tight containers it will become hydrated over time (take in moisture from the air) which could be taken care of by redistillation, but...

What can a human eat:
wheat, rye, tritacale (cross of wheat and rye), corn, oats, millet, sorgum, barley, rice -- rice, oats and barley take more preperations than the loose hulled.

dry beans, lentils, peas, peanuts, soybeans, sunflowers, canola-- if you have a crusher, use it on the oilseed to extract the oil, and use the meal to supplement your diet for high protien, as well as your livestock.. The oil does NOT have to be sopanified as they claim. I have witnessed straight run oil used in diesels from 1974 on. Not good in cold, but none the less it can be used with care.

Vegetables..
potatoes will probably become scarce unless well managed since it take the eye of the tuber to get a new crop. Also storage for the roots is trickier than for preserved foods.

Seed saving.. while hybrids are a 'problem' since they don't breed true, it does not mean they can not produce.. just not like the previous generation. They regress, but you still have some crop. The days of 200 bushel corn will be gone. If you can average 30-50 bushels/acre consider youself lucky after year one. Utilizing the offspring of hybrid's will be a trial and error. Just select the BEST for the next and eat the rest.

Grae
long-time Twilighter, and logistician.
ag is my bag, especially pre-WW2, since that is where we would be if not further back.
how to survive the aftermath is my avocation, Twilight is the training field for scenarios.

[headquarters]

I havent seen you around for a long time ,Grae - good to hear from you again ! ( It might just be that I havent been paying attention- nevertheless -good.)

I wanted to ask - smoking meats etc -will it not add to shelf life quite a lot ? I was under the impression that it would dry out the meat / fish considerably thus increasing shelf live by a lot -compared to fresh product of course.

Please advise - on mutton,pork,beef, dog (! well it is a post apoc game after all )

As for potatoes - in days past ,most houses here had a dark cellar were the temperature was cooler than the rest of the house with a big wooden container that could hold a couple of hundred pounds of potatoes or ther abouts .Apparently these dark and relatively cool conditions ( probably around +8 degrees Celsius )would keep the majority of the spuds edible for many months .

Some people state that potatoes can easily be grown if you leave a small batch in a cardboard container on your window sill ( inside ) and then replant after app 14 days of light ,in outside containers like flowerbeds,pails,tubs,drums or even discarded car tires filled with soil.

I would like an opinion on the feasability of such a garden -and any major tips on what to do and what to not - if thats alright .

As for T2K cuisine on a more specialized note : can anyone give me a ballpark figure for how long you have to wait to eat meat from animals that have been exposed to fallout ? I know there are a myriad variables,so to start off I would say that dosage is below lethal dose for the animal ( dog or sheep/cow/venison etc ) and that exposure has ended .

In other words -if you come across a deer /cow after the kaboom,you know it comes recently from the next county over were dangerous fallout has been registered -what would the recommended wait ? I am of course talking a situation were you have to eat or perish sooner rather than later .

[Graebarde]

***Darn it! I accidentally deleted Grae's post with my new-found moderator privileges! I meant to quote instead of edit! Kato, can Grae's post be retrieved? Please! It was really good!

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry!***



Edit Add from Kato13

Sorry My last backup was at midnight and I missed catching this one by about an hour.

My apologies Grea. This was not Targan's fault I kinda threw him into moderation mode without training.

[headquarters]

cheers.

good info.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

***Darn it! I accidentally deleted Grae's post with my new-found moderator privileges! I meant to quote instead of edit! Kato, can Grae's post be retrieved? Please! It was really good!

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry!***



Edit Add from Kato13

Sorry My last backup was at midnight and I missed catching this one by about an hour.

My apologies Grea. This was not Targan's fault I kinda threw him into moderation mode without training.

Humf... see where i stand ROTFLMAO

I'll redo a synopsis if you want.. won't be the same as I've slept since then.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I havent seen you around for a long time ,Grae - good to hear from you again ! ( It might just be that I havent been paying attention- nevertheless -good.)

I wanted to ask - smoking meats etc -will it not add to shelf life quite a lot ? I was under the impression that it would dry out the meat / fish considerably thus increasing shelf live by a lot -compared to fresh product of course.

Please advise - on mutton,pork,beef, dog (! well it is a post apoc game after all )

As for potatoes - in days past ,most houses here had a dark cellar were the temperature was cooler than the rest of the house with a big wooden container that could hold a couple of hundred pounds of potatoes or ther abouts .Apparently these dark and relatively cool conditions ( probably around +8 degrees Celsius )would keep the majority of the spuds edible for many months .

Some people state that potatoes can easily be grown if you leave a small batch in a cardboard container on your window sill ( inside ) and then replant after app 14 days of light ,in outside containers like flowerbeds,pails,tubs,drums or even discarded car tires filled with soil.

I would like an opinion on the feasability of such a garden -and any major tips on what to do and what to not - if thats alright .

As for T2K cuisine on a more specialized note : can anyone give me a ballpark figure for how long you have to wait to eat meat from animals that have been exposed to fallout ? I know there are a myriad variables,so to start off I would say that dosage is below lethal dose for the animal ( dog or sheep/cow/venison etc ) and that exposure has ended .

In other words -if you come across a deer /cow after the kaboom,you know it comes recently from the next county over were dangerous fallout has been registered -what would the recommended wait ? I am of course talking a situation were you have to eat or perish sooner rather than later .

Smoking meat inhances drying which will significantly extend shelf life of meat. While vegetation is not generally smoked (no comments needed) drying does the same for them. Key to success is thin slicing. Salt, if available, is used to speed the drawing of moisture out of the flesh. The quicker you can get it dried the better, especially if it's fly season (when it's not too cool/cold for them). Mutton should be able to be dried, though pork is iffy. Pork probably can be if sliced thin and fat cut off. Fat should be trimmed from any meat your drying as it will go rancid, it does not dry. Exception is pemmican the Indians (PC.. Native Americans) made. It was dried and pounded flesh, usually buffalo or venison, mixed with dried and pounded berries (sand cherries and juneberries come to mind). This dried mix was blended with hot melted tallow, but not so hot as to cook the meat. The dried meat is RAW.
Pork especially should ALWAYS be cooked well before eating because of the diseases they carry.. tricinosis (sp)[worms that get into the muscles.. nasty and painful from what I understand and if they get in the heart muscle.. well...] especially, but others as well are passable to humans.

As for radiation contaminated critters.. skin carefully only animals that do not appear sick. If in doubt, do without.. Bury the hides, unless your desperate and VERY careful. Lots of variable there, discretion is needed. All animals organs, esp livers and lungs, should be inspected for lesions. IF they are suspect I do NOT advise eating the critter.. this is tame and wild guys...
I do not recommend eating brain or spinal column from animals either. Mad cow disease is said to be where that comes from more than the flesh. So word of caution.

Most fish I think are good to dry. My only experience is with trout/salmon. Again salt helps the process. Oily fish are not as good as the flakier ones. Fish have been dried for millenia, as has land flesh or their sea partners (whale, seal, etc) As I recall saying, lutefisk anyone

(know I have forgotten already some of what I wrote before so this may ramble some)

Potatoes store well in 'root cellars'. cool basements, or even heaps covered with dirt and straw. Where ever they stay cool and out of light without freezing. Store only the best and eat the rest as soon as possible to prevent spoilage from bruised/scarred tubers.. This holds true for other roots as well, such as turnips, carrots, etc. We stored in burlap sacks of ca. 50 pounds in a room in our cellar. Not a true root cellar, but it worked quite well. If there is a sign of spolage, isolate the spoilage and get rid of it, and use the 'good' items from that batch as soon as possible. And it does not take long for a batch to go bad, so check often. Properly stored they can be had from harvest to the harvest of new potatoes, depending on you seasons.

Spuds can be grown well in the stacked tires or pails... tire stacks are better IMO. Place the first tire down, fill with soil and plant you spud. Peeling with enough flesh to get the plant going will work.. make sure there is at least one eye in each piece you plant. As the plant grows, add another tire, filling with dirt as the plant keeps coming up. Don't bury too deep, just keep is filling as the plant grows out of the soil.

Morer specifics, feel free to ask.

grae

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by Webstral

To spice up any dish, add salt and fresh-ground people.

Webstral

Long pork on rye!! Hold the Mayo!!!

Chuck

[Graebarde]

I see where the 'deleted' post has reappeared, at least on my machine, so just shuffle the them because there was different side bars in each..

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Some good points about regional cuisine, et al.

Pottery was developed specifically in response to the threat rodents pose to stored grain. This is not to say that cats don't have their place. (I hear them's good eatin') However, any dry container impervious to the teeth of mice and rats should do. Keeping the bugs out is a bit more of a trick, though far from impossible.

Given enough time, I seem to recall that rats have been observed to gnaw through sheet metal to get into things they want. In other words -- rat suppression calls for a good offense as well as a good defense, since given enough freedom of maneuver, they'll get into anything with available calories in it.

Of course, in the Twilight 2000 setting, cats would like be supplemented or replaced by 12 year old kids with slingshots and snares doing some hunting for the stew pot.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

Of course, in the Twilight 2000 setting, cats would like be supplemented or replaced by 12 year old kids with slingshots and snares doing some hunting for the stew pot.

A very good point. Perhaps a bit of grain might serve as an effective lure.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

Of course, in the Twilight 2000 setting, cats would like be supplemented or replaced by 12 year old kids with slingshots and snares doing some hunting for the stew pot.

If you can get a thick, heavy rubber band and stretch it over a stick, you can actually kill a rat with it, or at least stun it enough to run over and beat it to death. My friends and I used to do that in Hawaii (teenagers can be cruel, can't they?). Sounds like another post-apoc food-gathering activity for kids.

[headquarters]

I was wondering if anyone on the boards had tried to cookin a pit - a hole lined with stones that you fire with wood for a few hours ,and then place a parcel of meat etc in and cover with dirt to cook on the residual heat .

I hear some also place pots with lids secured inside and dig over with dirt .

Other ways of cooking outdoors or with archaic methods are also of interest.

Any information would be useful to me - I actually want to try it out for fun .

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

If you can get a thick, heavy rubber band and stretch it over a stick, you can actually kill a rat with it, or at least stun it enough to run over and beat it to death. My friends and I used to do that in Hawaii (teenagers can be cruel, can't they?). Sounds like another post-apoc food-gathering activity for kids.

rat...

I guess it would be a staple meat in some cases.

[jester]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I was wondering if anyone on the boards had tried to cookin a pit - a hole lined with stones that you fire with wood for a few hours ,and then place a parcel of meat etc in and cover with dirt to cook on the residual heat .

I hear some also place pots with lids secured inside and dig over with dirt .

Other ways of cooking outdoors or with archaic methods are also of interest.

Any information would be useful to me - I actually want to try it out for fun .

Yes, there are several ways. One can use a "dutch over" or similiar cast iron vessels, this is also done with hot coals. Some scout masters with a troop i work with can even bake with this method.

A person can also use crockery for cooking.

And of course using tin foil which is common, wet burlap or banana leaves.

And then of course you calso use flat stones to cook on as well.

I have had pig, fish, clams, oysters, chicken, potatoes, onions, carrots and corn cooked in this manner.

My grandfather also had a method of cooking birds, wrap them in mud/clay and cook until it drys and wait then serve. I think he picked it up durring his travels in China in the 30s.

Really alot of it is like cooking in a slow cooker, long slow low heat.