OT - No child deserves to die because of a coward.

[Chris]

I keep writing, erasing, writing, erasing, and writing this post. Been trying to put my thoughts together for the last three days, but the thoughts keep running in circles with no answer.

Nate, I wish I had some good, easy answers for all of us. I don't. I wish you peace.

Everyone here, I wish you peace. Turn off the idiot box. Walk in the crisp night air. Find some silence; your church, park, friends and family. Be well.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Chris

I keep writing, erasing, writing, erasing, and writing this post. Been trying to put my thoughts together for the last three days, but the thoughts keep running in circles with no answer.

Nate, I wish I had some good, easy answers for all of us. I don't. I wish you peace.

Everyone here, I wish you peace. Turn off the idiot box. Walk in the crisp night air. Find some silence; your church, park, friends and family. Be well.

good words.

[Jason Weiser]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Words cannot begin to express my horror and rage at this senseless slaughter of innocents. There can never be an adequate explanation of why someone would believe that this would make things in their world right. Nothing can ever justify the murder of children.

That this individual had severe mental issues cannot be denied, the question is why these issues were not addressed in time to prevent this will be endlessly debated. But the killer has achieved one goal, he will now be remembered.

There are blogs out on the net right now, talking about how "cool" this killer is for "doing it to the man" and "he should have killed more of the little piggies."

Our society has reached a new low. And I fear for that society.

Please god,
Tell me this isn't true. Having dealt with someone who had mental issues. Without turning this into a political discussion on mental health issues in this country? I can say, the mental health delivery system in this nation stinks...hard.

On the other hand? I work for a Second Amendment advocacy group. I believe strongly in the rights for Americans to possess firearms. Do I think the gun control side believe what they believe honestly? Yes. I also disagree with them wholeheartedly. Trouble is? A lot of wrong headed folks on both sides are going to say and do some very dumb things in the coming days.

Meanwhile? 20 kids are dead. And I know a lot of us wish we'd been there to do something, anything to stop this asshole. I know I do, and I am the least trained person here.

[Legbreaker]

From where I sit halfway around the planet, the whole issue seems to be devolving into a gun control fight with virtually no attention on mental health.
Am I surprised? Hell no!
Why? Because it's a LOT cheaper to play around with existing firearms laws, get the police/ATF/etc to come down hard on a few people than it is to make effective changes to mental (in fact all) health systems and make them WORK.
ALL sides of politics are equally unlikely in my view to do what NEEDS to be done because actually dealing with a broken system requires money and political backbone.

So we can all expect more instances similar to this one in the future - at least until a few centuries have passed and there's a half decent mental health system...

And this goes not just for the US, but here in Australia as well.

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

From where I sit halfway around the planet, the whole issue seems to be devolving into a gun control fight with virtually no attention on mental health.
Am I surprised? Hell no!
Why? Because it's a LOT cheaper to play around with existing firearms laws, get the police/ATF/etc to come down hard on a few people than it is to make effective changes to mental (in fact all) health systems and make them WORK.
ALL sides of politics are equally unlikely in my view to do what NEEDS to be done because actually dealing with a broken system requires money and political backbone.

So we can all expect more instances similar to this one in the future - at least until a few centuries have passed and there's a half decent mental health system...

And this goes not just for the US, but here in Australia as well.

I must share this Australian wisdome to Facebook due to it's level of Awesomeness.

[pmulcahy11b]

I'm sort of changing my mind about mental illness getting more attention. Maybe the health care industry (including Medicare, Tricare, and the VA) will have to pay attention to the ugly truth that 72% of of mental health patients receive no care or are undercared for (I'm in that boat).

[natehale1971]

What gets me, is that i've been reading the articles and watching interviews with the people that were in this kids life... the mother was saying that she felt she was loosing him. His mental AND phyiscal state should be looked at. He couldln't feel pain, nor could he relate to others. So much so that the caregiver (babysitter just doesn't seem to work since he asn't a baby) had been warned by the mother to NEVER turn his back on him.

so it's not JUST one thing that went wrong here... and no one single law would have stopped this from happening.

it's something we as a people need to do... get involved with our communities. stop ignoring each other, start KNOWING each other. to care about someone other than just ourselves. to get past this self-centred selfish nature that has been promoted over the past couple decades. When i was a kid, i remember what it was like to have neighbors who knew me and my family... that if i did something wrong, my parents would know about it by the time i got home.

[Raellus]

Unfortunately, it's about a for-profit healthcare industry. Without getting too political, there's simply no push for additional federal funding of mental health programs and most private insurance companies can't be bothered to cover folks who can't afford to pay hefty premiums/co-pays. This is why a lot of people with serious mental illnesses end up on the streets, and others with maybe less extreme conditions slip through the cracks in other ways.

Until we as a society are willing to accept that basic health care is a human right, and are willing to support this belief with our pocketbooks (i.e. higher taxes), this neglect/underserving of the mentally ill is going to continue to be a factor in some of these mass murders.

[natehale1971]

I hate to say this, but you're wrong.

From what i've read already, this "kid" was getting help... he had parents who were involved in his life. the teachers and advisors said that they watched him constantly to ensure that he wouldn't get picked on. to watch and make sure he didn't hurt himself.

I've had to make do on $110 a month, and during that time i was able to get first rate medical care... hell, they were able to put MY LEGS BACK ON despite the fact they KNEW for a fact I didn't have insurence and couldn't afford the proceedures. But they did it anyway.

It's not about 'for-profit healthcare' that his happened. This happened because of ONE person who despite the care being provided decided to do this horrific act.

We just can't stop what someone is thinking or planing in their own mind. The way the law enforcement operates in a free society is to respond only after the fact... If we were to do anything else, that would be the foundations of a complete police state that would have "Thought Crimes" that would be reason enough to detain individuals. And that would see the death of not only liberty, but the human spirit.

A retired FBI profiler has been watching this, and did a good commentary on this case... the link is below. please take the time to read it. reading this has given alot of what i've read and watched on this horrific case

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...180620270.html

[Targan]

I don't want to put words in your mouth Nate, or misrepresent your view on this. So just to clarify, are you saying that in your opinion, there is adequate affordable health care and mental health care in your country, and other laws covering a subject that shall not be named in this discussion are also adequate? And that Adam Lanza was essentially sane? That in effect he was of sound mind and that his actions were the result of considered and rational thought?

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Targan

I don't want to put words in your mouth Nate, or misrepresent your view on this. So just to clarify, are you saying that in your opinion, there is adequate affordable health care and mental health care in your country, and other laws covering a subject that shall not be named in this discussion are also adequate? And that Adam Lanza was essentially sane? That in effect he was of sound mind and that his actions were the result of considered and rational thought?

No. that's not what I am saying. if you read what i wrote i did not say he was sane, but that only in hindsight can we see that he wasn't sane or all there for that matter.

That during the last week of his life before he went on his rampage, that his mother was saying that she felt she was loosing him... that he was getting further and further way from her. and from what they are uncovering, he had been PLANING this for a long time. how long, i don't know yet.. i'm stll reading all the reports that i can get my hands on.

What I am saying is that there are many ways for getting help, and I know because in the past I've received help (just look at the pictures i posted showing me during my coma, while relearing to walk ect) and mental health assistant when i was dealing with battered spouse issues thanks to what my ex-gf had done for nearly four years...

and I am currently watching my sister get help for the issues she has been going through RIGHT NOW. The local mental health clinic is doing a good job with working with her... but it's just part of what she needs help with. we're trying to find a doctor who will be secure enough to deal with the malpratice and faulty equipment that was used to repair the damage done to her hip.

It's not about higher taxes, it's about the management of resources on a local, state and national level since there is just so much waste of those resources, that it's not even funny. There are millions and billions of dollars that are being spent on programs that just does not make any kind of sense that could be used to create a means of providing care for those who slip through the cracks.

Hell, i've posted my idea for that kind of health care with the expansion of the Public Health Service... and a paramilitary medical service that would provide the education to those wishing to go into medical care but can't afford the tution fees for Nursing Schools, Medical Schools and Paramedical courses. but that's besides the point right now..

We are talking about what happened with Adam Lanza and what could have been done to stop this horror from happening.

What Adam Lanza has done is without any kind of rational description to capture just how horrible and demonic it was... there isn't an easy answer to explain it away. Nor prevent things like this from happening except to arm the teachers like they do in Israel, or provide for armed security to be posted in every school in the United States (me, i vote for both those options).

But it's coming to light that Lanza's family was doing everything they could to provide him with the kind of care that he needed, that the schools in the area also were working at helping him. and that they went out of their way to keep him from bein bullied as well as keeping him from harming himself thanks to his inability to feel pain. That they were working at getting through to him both mentally and phyiscally. that he was due to his condition seperate not just because of autism, but phsycailly as well.

That to many it appeared that he was 'getting around' his autism and could have led a good and productive life.

Those that knew him stated he was highly intellgent and that he was suppose to be looking into colleges that would work with him to get higher education. That his mother was actually planing on moving to be close to what ever college that accepted him so that she could give him the support he needed.

It was during the last week before this happened that she mentioned that she felt that she was loosing him... that the connection that they had was becoming distant.

He did something horrible... he started out killing his motehr (shot her in the head four times while she slept). he then destroyed his computers and other actions before he pushed his way into the school and started his rampage.

Do whe as a society need to demystify mental-health problems... God yes. it's just as we need to get the notion that big boys don't cry and destroy it.

but would that have helped stop this from happening? I don't think so. From what i've been reading today... there was only one thing that would have kept this from happening. but to do that... would be inhumane and violate civil liberties in a horrendous way...

I brought up 'Thought Crimes' for a reason... should someone be punished for imaging beating the hell out of a bully or horrible boss at work? should they be punished by the government for wishing ill on others?

that is a slippery slope that we really don't want to go down.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

And that Adam Lanza was essentially sane? That in effect he was of sound mind and that his actions were the result of considered and rational thought?

Here's the thing: in the US, there is a legal distinction between sanity and mental illness. It's how a clearly sick person can be considered sane and convicted. Usually it comes down to whether or not a person is able to judge lawful behavior from unlawful behavior (ie, "knows right from wrong") and is able to assist and contribute to his own defense. In essence, sanity and insanity are legal terms. Being mentally ill is a medical diagnosis. Most of the time, the legal term of sanity trumps the medical diagnosis. Getting off for reasons of mental defect or disease is nowhere as easy as it is believed in this country, since sanity and insanity are simple legal distinctions that can easily overrule complex medical diagnoses.

[kota1342000]

Hope everyone in and around Newtown is holding on as best you can. This sucks, it always will, and I'm skeptical about the healing power of time. No matter what ideas and questions I pose below, this is a worthless act perpetrated by two worthless people, the shooter and the mother.
But at this point I think 3 or 4 posts here shed a bit of light on one of the pieces we've completely ignored for too damn long at least in the US.

Moderators, I'm hoping this wont stray too close to the political prohibition here. If so, that isn't my intent.

...I think hearing from Paul and LBraden is the best thing for this thread. Fixing this problem is going to take action on several different angles, including the gun control side, but mental health has been consistently ignored in the past and that is unacceptable.
So here's a set of quick questions...I TRULY hope nothing here offends, but I consider myself ignorant on what is needed and what will work. When I had contact with the seriously mentally ill, it was a bit on the "too late" side since we were bringing him or her in on the rescue.

First, where do we start? Of course I have my own ideas like actually listening to Patients, and making sure there's some kind of funding to get something done. But I don't know if I'm on the right track.

Second, I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of drugs that big pharmaceutical companies are pushing are developed with an eye towards profit margins as opposed to helping the patient. A friend taking Serzone (I think) described a mindset where it was nearly impossible to determine if she was happy for real, or being held in a "happy state" by "chemical puppet strings". Would it be better to actually focus on other treatment options instead, and what can and should we make available? Not to mention that many of these meds are so expensive they are completely out of reach for many Americans.

And lastly, what pieces are we missing in the medical infrastructure? Medical conditions and traumatic injuries have a well established pipeline for caring for patients from start to finish, but Ive seen many people on mental health holds just set aside in a separate room and left alone. I'm thinking that's unacceptable, so what pieces do we need to put in place? Patients aren't going to need cardio monitors and first round crash drugs, but what do we need?

I know that there's lots of talk about a national database of people with dangerous mental illness, but that's not going to go very far unless we back it up with help for everyone who needs it. Going down that road is just trying to separate the mentally ill from everyone else, and would be selfish, ignorant, and worthless in the extreme. In the end, we're in the same boat, and if we can't help everyone instead of trying to throw them overboard, then we deserve to sink.