Gulf/Caribbean Naval Activity?

[kalos72]

Has anyone thought about possible Gulf/Caribbean naval activity or scenarios?

I would assume some of the the Mexican Navy would move north with the army for support...what forces could the US move to counter?

Cuba? Colombia? Venezuela?

Anyone know what naval forces the US would have in the area pre-war?

[dragoon500ly]

Best source of the USN, pre-war is the "14th Edition of The Ships and Aircraft of the U.S. Fleet"...

Second Fleet is the traditional "home" or training fleet. 2nd Fleet has the NATO Strike Force mission as well as being the Navy's operational requirements of the Caribbean and Central America as well as the ASW mission in the Atlantic.

Carrier Group 6 is based at Mayport, Florida (CV-59 and CV-60). Also based at Mayport is Cruiser-Destroyer Group 12 which consists of 4 DDG, 16 FFG, 7 FF, 3 MSO and 1 AD.

Based at Key West, Florida are 6 PHMs of PHM Squadron 2.

The senior command for the Caribbean is Task Force 28 (Caribbean Contingency Force).

The Naval Reserve also operates FFG-20 and FFG-21 out of Mayport, Florida and FFG-24 out of Galveston, Texas.

The only ships that regularly operate in the Gulf of Mexico are the Naval Reserve ships and the hydrofoils of PHM-2, the other ships tend to rotate between assignments to 2nd Fleet and forward deployments to 6th Fleet.

The U.S. Coast Guard covers the area with the 7th Coast Guard District (Miami, FL) and the 8th Coast Guard District (New Orleans, LA). Coast Guard vessels and aircraft are split between the Atlantic Area and the Pacific Area. I'm still researching their assignments for the pre-war area.

For the most part the Navy operates light forces (with the occasional cruiser or SSN deployed) in the Caribbean.

[kalos72]

Good info thank you.

Any thoughts on naval forces moved to the area in response to the Mexican advance?

Something else to consider...the USS Lexington in Corpus Christi.

[Rainbow Six]

Prior to the start of the War the Royal Navy and the Royal Netherlands Navy would also each have one ship stationed in the Caribbean. How long they'd stay there after the start of hostilities is, of course, another matter.

(During the Falklands War the New Zealand Government of the time agreed that some Royal New Zealand Navy ships would take over routine patrols normally carried out by RN ships so that the RN ships could head to the South Atlantic, so if you wanted to add something slightly more unusual into the mix it's not impossible that the RN Caribbean guardship in T2K could have been relieved by a friendly but non belligerent Navy - most likely either the RNZN or the Royal Australian Navy.)

The French also have a Naval base at Martinique (the Caribbean could be an interesting little side show in the aftermath of the French invasion of the Netherlands).

[dragoon500ly]

Naval Surface Group 4 is based out of Newport, Rhode Island and consists of 1 DD, 5 FFG and 5 FF, but their task is the Atlantic ASW mission.

Cruiser-Destroyer Group 2 is based out of Charleston, South Carolina and consists of 2 CG, 6 DDG, 7 DD, 10 FFG, 8 FF, this is slated for the Atlantic ASW/convoy escort mission.

Cruiser-Destroyer Group 8 is based out of Norfolk, Virginia and consists of 1 BB, 5 CGN, 6 CG, 13 DDG, 9 DD, 1 FFG, and 9 FF, but this is slated for carrier/convey escorts.

2nd Fleet also has a sizable submarine force:
Submarine Group 2 out of Portsmouth, New Hampshire has 7 SSBN and 2 SSN

Submarine Squadron 2 out of Groton, Conn. has 10 SSN, Submarine Development Squadron 12 is also based there and adds another 6 SSN.

Submarine Squadron 10 in New London, Conn. has 5 SSN.

Submarine Squadron 14 is based at Holy Loch, Scotland with 9 SSBN

Submarine Group 6 is based out of Charleston, South Carolina with 9 SSBN
Submarine Squadron 4 is also at Charleston with 10 SSN and 1 SS
Submarine Squadon 18 is also at Charleston with 2 SSBN

Submarine Squadron 6 and 9 are at Norfolk, Virginia with 17 SSN

Submarine Squadron 16 is at Kings bay, Georgia with 7 SSBN

The problem with the subs are that they charged with the Atlantic ASW mission and are also forward based at Holy Loch, Scotland and La Maddalena, Sardinia (6th Fleet)

Marine Support for the Caribbean is provided by the 2nd Marine Division (typically through the 4th and 6th Marine Amphibious Brigades). But the
4th MAB is assigned to reinforce Norway while the 6th MAB is slatted for duty with the Maritime Prepositioning Ships-Atlantic. 2nd Marine Division also supports the 22nd, 24th and 26th MAUs (battalion-sized) that operate in the Mediterranean with the 6th Fleet.

As you can see, the 2nd Fleet does support limited operations in the Caribbean, but its focus is on the Atlantic, especially the ASW and convoy escort missions. With the onset of warfare with the Soviet Union, I would expect the Navy to actually strip ships from the area, especially as the Soviet submarines start surging into the Atlantic. With the invasion of Mexico, I could see a handful of frigates, and Coast Guard cutters doing the main work, with the occassional cruiser and 2-3 destroyers entering the area for specific operations, and then being withdrawn back into the Atlantic.

[dragoon500ly]

We've discussed the U.S. presence in the Caribbean, but what of the Mexican presence?

Combat Fleets of the World, 1993 lists the Mexican Navy as follows:

Personnel: 38,000, including 9,000 marines (plans to reduce this 6,000 in 1996, in RL).

The Mexican Navy operates the following aircraft:
5 Grumman HU-16 Albatross amphibians
10 Casa 212 coastal surveillance
1 DNC Buffalo
1 Fokker F-27
and 40 light fixed-wing aircraft, including: 1 Learjet 24D, 12 Beach B-55, 1 Cessna 401, 1 Beech King Air 90, 4 Rockwell Turbo-Commander, 1 Piper Aztec, 1 Cessna 337G, 1 Beech D590, 1 Cessna 206A, 1 Cessna 441, 8 Cessna 152, 3 Beech T-34 Mentors and 6 Beech F-33 Bonanza.

Helicopters include 11 MBB BO-105CB, 3 Alouette III, 4 McDonnell Douglas MD 500E and 1 MD 500, 3 Hughes 269A and 2 Bell UH-1H plus 10 SA-315 Lama SAR helos.

Warships include
2 ex US Gearing-class Destroyers, these have had the FRAM mods and mount two twin 5in/38 and a 8-tube ASROC launcher.

1 ex US Fletcher-class Destroyer, she is basically unmodified, with 5 5in/38 and four twin 40mm mounts with obsolete WWII radars and fire control equipment, reported to be in poor material condition.

1 ex US Charles Lawrence and 2 ex US Crosley-class frigates, these are former WWII high speed transports armed with a single 5in/38 and three twin 40mm. In need of replacement due to their material condition.

2 Aguila-class Corvettes (with 7 more under construction), based on the Spanish Halcon design and armed with a single 57mm/70 gun and can support a single MBB BO-105CB helo. Intended for patrol/interdiction duties.

6 Halcon-class Corvettes, mount a single 40mm/70 gun and can support a BO-105CB helo. Intended for patrol/interdiction duties.

17 ex US Auk-class former fleet minesweepers. Mount a single 3in/50 gun and two twin 40mm/60 guns. All minesweepet and ASW equipment removed prior to transfer and used for patrol duties. All in poor material condition.

12 ex US Admirable former fleet minesweepers. Mount a single 3in/50 and one twin 40mm mount. Like the Auks, all minesweeper and ASE equipment removed, used for patrol duties and in even worse material condition.

31 Azteca-class patrol boats, these are British designed and mostly built in the UK and transferred to Mexico. Armament varies ranging from a single 40mm/60 Bofors, or a single 20mm Oerlikon or a single 7.62mm mg. Used for inshore patrol duties.

2 ex US Coast Guard Cape-class patrol boats, armed with two single mount 12.7mm mgs. Used for anti-drug patrol duties.

2 ex US Coast Guard patrol boats. armed with two single mount 12.7mm mgs. Used for anti-drug patrols.

Amphibious Warfare capability is very limited, consisting of:

1 ex US Fabius-class former aircraft repair ship. A WWII LST ship fitted with repair shops and still carrying 2 LCVPs.

2 Huasteco-class Transports. Carryies up to 300 troops, but mostly used as floating infirmaries and as disaster relief ships.

1 Iguala-class Transport. Fitted w/bow and stern cargo ramps and can support 300 troops. Damaged by fire in 1989 and not fully returned to service.

1 former frigate (the Durango). Built in 1935 and has a capacity of 470 troops and a number of horses. Served as a training hulk from 1967 to 1982, but plans in 1993 for refurbishing for seagoing training and VIP cruising duties.

Mexico also operates some 44 riverine patrol craft ranging from 80 to 1.5 tons displacement and armed with a single 7.62mm mg, as well as 3 hydrographic survey and oceanographic research shisp and a variety of tugs (for harbour use).

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Good info thank you.

Any thoughts on naval forces moved to the area in response to the Mexican advance?

Something else to consider...the USS Lexington in Corpus Christi.

Well, the USS Lexington is home ported out of Pensacola, Florida in the pre war era. And she is a flight deck...BUT... she has no aircraft support capabilities or other features that would permit her to operate in a combat role. She has been stripped of all armament and fire control equipment and operates only navigation and a single air search radar. Her magazines have been emptied and filled with concrete ballast. Her port deck-edge elevator has been deactivated and forms a permament part of the flight deck (yes they did weld it in place).

Her sole mission is to serve as a seagoing platform for landings and takeoffs by pilots from the Pensacola flight school, she is reported to maintain some aircraft refueling capability, but this supply does not consist of more than a few thousand gallons, their are no aircraft maintanance facilities operational.

During the Reagan era, the Navy sought to reactivate the Hancock-class carriers. Congress refused to fund this reactivation due to the poor material condition and lack of suitable combat aircraft that can operate from their flight decks (during the Vietnam War the supported F-8/A-4 squadrons, being too small to operate the F-4s). The best material condition of the three Hancocks (Lexington) is operated as a training carrier.

The Lexington would have to be extensively modernized and refitted in order to operate in a combat environment...at best her air group would have to consist of Harriers and helicopters. And in the Twilight War....it is doubtful that this would be done.

[kalos72]

Is she self powered at least? Maybe make her a floating base in the Gulf while a port is rebuilt or something? Add extra firepower to her decks? A few artillery pcs on the deck firing shots at 25km's will get someones attention.

Just creative ideas is all...

Is all that data from the book you mentioned? I need a digital copy...damn.

[dragoon500ly]

LOL! Any of Norman Polmar's books are worth the (hefty!) price. The best works are his 13th, 14th and 15th Editions of The Ships and Aircraft of the U.S. Fleet. Don't know if they are availbale through e-books, but the Naval Institute Press is the source. Problem is that you have to be a member of the Naval Institute in order to get books at anything close to a reasonable price. Still...the books are well worth every penny!

Combat Fleets of the World is also available through NIP, of the two the Editions give you a better overview of the USN, but the Combat Fleets are hard to beat for a broad overview. At least as well researched as any of the Jane's, but not as pricey!

[dragoon500ly]

Have't considered the mounting of weapons on the Lex...but she is a Hancock-class. SO!!!!

She still carried the galleries that supported her 5in/38s, the platforms are mounted on each of her quarters. The reinforced positions for her twin 5-inchs are still available fore and aft of her island. The twin mounts weighed in at 120,000lbs each (4 mounts) and each of the four deck edge platforms mounted two single 5inchs, that weighed 33,100lbs each. SO! If the Lexington was to be brought back into service...the single 5-inch 38 mount is available from any of the older cruisers, not to mention through the military assistance program....twin 3-inch/50 Mk33 mounts are still stored in available as well. Not to mention a variety of 40mm, 20mm and 12.7mm weapons.

Lex is fitted with four steam turbines, which at at their peak, gave the ship a maximum speed of 33 knots. They have seen a lot of wear and tear, in spite of several rebuilds. Most recent sources hint at a more realistic speed of perhaps 25+ knots. Enough fuel is carried to give her a range of 15,000 nautical miles at an average speed of 15 knots.

The original air group was 70-80 aircraft (World War Two). During the Vietnam War, the air group was 40-50. Since the A-4 fleet has been stripped and dismantled, it is possible that a squadron of AV-8Bs and a squadron of SH-2/SH-60 ASW helos could be carried.

The biggest drawback would be the reactivation of the aircraft maintenance facilites and the welding of the portside deck elevator into place. Of the two, the elevator would have the greatest impact, frankly, I have no idea just how much time and effort would be required to cut it free and restore it to full operation.

[Cdnwolf]

Does the Gateway to the Spanish Main module have any information on the region?

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

Does the Gateway to the Spanish Main module have any information on the region?

Gateway to the Spanish Main does not have any information about the USN or any other navies for that matter.

If I recall, it does have a (very) brief tidbit about the inhabitants of Grenada having front row seats to a duel between a U.S. battleship (Iowa?) and a Soviet cruiser.

The module really concentrates on Grenada and the various factions there including the Cubans and the pirate occupied island of Carriacou. No mention of the Netherlands Antilles or Aruba and the 32nd Royal Netherlands Marine Battalion, or Martinique and the French Troupes de Marines stationed there. No mention of Cuba, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands etc

would be an interesting project to list out T2k wise how the rest of the area fares.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Not just the RNZN, the RAN took over some of the patrols done by the RN. One of the people I work with is former Aussie Navy and his ship was sent to Hong Kong during the Falklands to take the station normally occupied by a Royal Navy frigate.
They were told that it was "not impossible" that RAN ships may be sent to assist the RN closer to the Falklands. A number of RAN sailors were looking forward to that but as we know, it never eventuated.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

<snip>
(During the Falklands War the New Zealand Government of the time agreed that some Royal New Zealand Navy ships would take over routine patrols normally carried out by RN ships so that the RN ships could head to the South Atlantic, so if you wanted to add something slightly more unusual into the mix it's not impossible that the RN Caribbean guardship in T2K could have been relieved by a friendly but non belligerent Navy - most likely either the RNZN or the Royal Australian Navy.)<snip>

[Targan]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Lex is fitted with four steam turbines, which at at their peak, gave the ship a maximum speed of 33 knots. They have seen a lot of wear and tear, in spite of several rebuilds. Most recent sources hint at a more realistic speed of perhaps 25+ knots. Enough fuel is carried to give her a range of 15,000 nautical miles at an average speed of 15 knots.

So how many tons of bunker oil are we talking?

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Targan

So how many tons of bunker oil are we talking?

6,800 tons, roughly.

Accordinging to the two Navy pukes in my office, a ship's bunkerage can very depending on loadouts in the magazine, number of aircraft embarked, duration of the voyage, etc.etc.etc.etc. Carrier task forces almost never set sail without a replenishment group in tow or one or two setup en-route. The carriers fuel is also often used to refuel her escorts, hence the large bunkerage.

[dragoon500ly]

Here's a brief listing of some of the other players in the Gulf of Mexico/Caribbean (source is Combat Fleets of the World, 1993)

The Bahamas. The Police Marine Division operates 15 patrol craft.

Barbados. The Coast Guard operates four patrol craft.
Belize. Operates 2 patrol craft (36.5 tons and 1 12.7mm hmg) for Anti-drug, inshore patrol and SAR missions.

Bermuda. The Bermudian Police operate 2 patrol craft.

Brazil. While not a Caribbean nation, they are included due to the occassional "showing the flag" patrol that they conduct into the southern portions of the Caribbean. 1 aircraft carrier (6 S-2E, 4-6 SH-3, 2 UH-11 and 3 UH-12 helos), 1+6 German Type 209/1400 subs, 3 ex-British Oberon-class subs, 1 exUS Guppy III sub, 1 exUS Guppy II sub, 2 exUS Gearing FRAM I-class DDs, 4 exUS Allen M Sumner-class DDs, 2+2 Ihjauma-class FF, 6 British Vosper Thornycraft Mk10-class FF, 4 exUS Garcia-class FF, 9 Imperial Marinheiro-class corvettes as well as 2 exUS Thomaston-class LSD and 1 exUS De Sotp County-class LST.

Colombia. 2 German Type 209/1200-class subs, 4 FS1500-class FF, 1 exUS Courtney-class FF.

Costa Rica. Operates 6 patrol craft

Cuba. 3 Soviet Foxtrot-class SS, 3 Koni-class FF, 13 Osa II-class PGM, 4 OSA I-class PGM, 1 patrol boat, 9 Turya-class torpedo hydrofoils and 2 Polnocny B-class LSM

Dominican Republic. 1 ex Canadian River-class FF, 3 exUS Cohoes-class corvettes, 8 patrol craft.

El Salvador. 4 patrol craft.

Grenada. 1 patrol craft

Guatemala. 9 patrol craft.

Guinea. 9 patrol craft.

Guyana. 4 patrol craft.

Haiti. 10 patrol craft.

Honduras. 11 patrol craft.

Jamaica. 4 patrol craft.

Nicaragua. 22 patrol craft.

Panama. 1 patrol craft.

Saint Kitts. 2 patrol craft.

Saint Lucia. 2 patrol craft.

Saint Vincent. 2 patrol craft.

Trinidad & Tobago. 9 patrol craft.

Venezuela. 2 German Type 209/1300-class SS, 6 Italian Lupo-class FF, 2 Almirante Clemente-class FF, 23 patrol craft, 4 Capana-class LST, 1 exUS Terrebonne Parish0-class LST.

Western Virgin Islands. 1 patrol craft.

[kalos72]

That surely seems like enough fleet to have action...even if its just small skirmishes locally.

I would even imagine a good many of them still active, if not limited to fuel and crew. At this stage of the war, they would be prime assets.

[Olefin]

I am actually working on how the Royal Netherlands Marines and the Navy in the Caribbean may have reacted to the war and the invasion of the Netherlands by France - including some naval action in the Caribbean between them

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I am actually working on how the Royal Netherlands Marines and the Navy in the Caribbean may have reacted to the war and the invasion of the Netherlands by France - including some naval action in the Caribbean between them

Would be interested to see what you come up with...it's something I've thought about a few times, especially somewhere like the island of St Martin, which is split between France and the Netherlands.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Barbados is a UK concern, but I can see it being basically neglected during the run up to '97 and then either left to wither and die (somewhat unlikely) or snapped up by the Franco/Belgians.

[kalos72]

Not sure if its a new thing but aren't there a fair amount of oil refinery/fields in the Caribbean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrotrin

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Not sure if its a new thing but aren't there a fair amount of oil refinery/fields in the Caribbean?

Trinidad and Tobago has fairly respectable oil reserves and a refinery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrotrin

Largest refineries appear to be on Aruba and Curacao, both of which are Dutch. Potentially they may have been large enough to warrant a nuke being dropped on them, but if intact and even semi operational could be of great interest to the French.

EDIT. We found the same link...

[Olefin]

Aruba and Curacao's refineries would be prime targets

Gateway to the Spanish Main lists Aruba as the target of the pirates once they had their ships ready - as in the oil rich island of Aruba - that implies the storage tanks and refinery may be intact there

but the omission of Curacao may be a real indication that it got nuked when Venezuela got hit - and considering how close it is that refinery (and the city surrounding it) probably got nailed

you could have a situation similiar to what spared Istanbul and Bremerhaven - i.e. the nuke went short or long and landed in the ocean and not on the island itself

[boogiedowndonovan]

Anyone remember the old Harpoon computer game? A few of the convoy escort scenarios, I can't remember which, had the NATO convoys going as far south as the Caribbean.

The US, British and Canada had bases on Bermuda. I could see the personnel "stranded" on Bermuda during T2k.

US had NAS Bermuda, operating P3's and NF Tudor Hill listening post.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Air_Station_Bermuda
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USN_NA...int,_1941-1995
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Facility_Bermuda

According to the wikipedia article, Canadian CP-140 Aurora ASW aircraft periodically operated from NAS Bermuda.

British had HMS Malabar, supply station for the RN ship assigned to the Caribbean

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ma...t)#HMS_Malabar

Canada also operated CFS Bermuda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFS_Bermuda

[kalos72]

Don't forget St Croix has a LARGE refinery as well...

With such a rich target environment, I would imagine the navies would keep active to some degree.

Or else there is a port somewhere with 3 OSA class patrol boats just looking for a new home. :P

[Apache6]

I don't think there is any cannon coverage. What do you think happened to the base at Gitmo?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Apache6

I don't think there is any cannon coverage. What do you think happened to the base at Gitmo?

Since no strikes are listed, if the Cubans declared neutrality possibly "nothing at all". Of course if the Cubans had an intact military and wanted to take Guantanamo bay back, without a supply lifeline to the US, post '97 there'd be little the detachment left behind could do.

I guess we'd have to consider what assets the Marines would leave there before we could make a judgement call.

[Targan]

Gitmo would be abandoned some time after late '97, surely? The Marines are tough, heroic warriors, no doubt about it, but why hold onto the enclave when being overrun and cut off from resupply and reinforcement would be all but inevitable? I don't think the USMC would throw lives away for essentially nothing.

[Rainbow Six]

I can't be 100% certain about this (don't have access to any of my T2K books at the moment) but going from memory I think it's stated in the V2.X Big Yellow Book that the United States evacuates all its personnel from Guantanamo some time after the 1997 nuclear exchange (can't remember when).

I think it's then stated that the Cuban military move in and take over the base (or what's left of it) although I'm less certain about that.

If anyone has a copy of the BYB to hand check the section towards the back that gives a brief overview of the global situation - that's where I think it's mentioned. Can't recall what else (if anything) that part of the book says about the Caribbean.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

If anyone has a copy of the BYB to hand check the section towards the back that gives a brief overview of the global situation - that's where I think it's mentioned. Can't recall what else (if anything) that part of the book says about the Caribbean..

Here it is.

Originally Posted by Twilight V 2.2

Guantanamo was evacuated by U.S. troops in 1999, and reclaimed by the Cuban military within days. It remains a major military cantonment.