Trade Routes

[RandyT0001]

In Bullets and Bluegrass the KFS uses the Ohio River as a trade route where riverboats travel. I'm going to assume that the KFS uses paddlewheel steamboats both below and above the Falls of the Ohio (rapids) situated at Louisville where overland portage, possibly by steam locomotive railway, of cargo is used to connect the upper Ohio to the lower Ohio.

Are there established trade routes in your setting? Do they use waterways for transport? What type of craft is used to transport cargo and people, steamboats, IC engine riverboats? Are there entities (like the Corps of Engineers, etc.) that keep the waterways clear of snags and other obstacles? Do rivertowns undertake this task to keep the local section of the river clear of snags, etc.?

Do you have specified roads, maybe old interstate roadways or old US highways, for trade routes? Are these roads dirt roads, gravel roads or paved roads? How wide are these trade roads, 10 feet, 15 feet, 20 feet? About how long are longest single span bridges, 50 feet, 100 feet? What is the most common type of bridge, stone arch, steel (or wood) truss, wood trestle, etc.? Who maintains them? Do travelers on the road pay a toll?

For roads how large is the vehicle, typically, a cart, a wagon, a stagecoach, a 10 wheeled van truck, etc.? How often does said vehicle transverse the trade route past a town, once per day, twice a week, once per week, twice per month, once per month, etc.?

[stormlion1]

The campaign were planning out for January is set in Southern Jersey, Eastern PA, and Northern Delaware and one thing that we have been talking about is the roads and rivers. We essentially have decided that while the only real river that is big enough to need larger boats is the Delaware so barges will be filling in for any crossings that will be needed. Probably Steam powered as I have a feeling lumber will be a abundant resource. For smaller rivers canoes, Kayaks, and poled small pleasure craft stripped out of any extra weight will be the order of the day. The Canoes and Kayaks are small enough to portage as well. At least one of the bridges crossing the Delaware River will have survived but I'm not sure of which one. Roads are the hard part so were going with most roads that exist today will be relatively impassible so new pathways big enough for carts and horse pulled truck bed conversions will be what' in use. figure the closer to water the more sandy it will become so Sugar Sand will be a issue for heavy vehicles getting stuck and dug in and the be a tight squeeze all around and the closer to the Delaware being more solid. Not going to be a lot of settlements planned out so most roads will be direct routes paralleling old roadways and using old refurbished bridges when possible to cross natural terrain features. A few of the old roadways will still be passable to some small extent but usually the ones that are traveled more frequently and even those will be a single lane or even half lane wide. Many of those roads will also double as shallow waterways as well when it rains hard enough as storm drains are buried in debris and shoulders form on the sides.
I'm not part of setting up the towns so Trade Routes are an unknown at this point. Only reason I know what I know is the boss is asking me questions about old ruins and roads in the Pine Barrens as I go backroading, camping, kayaking and hiking out there and have checked out a few old towns out there as well.

[RandyT0001]

If you need a decent book about road building and maintenance look up 'king road drag' on Wikipedia. Below the article about the drag under the heading "External Links" click the link about the theory and use of the drag (the second listed link). Download that free book 'Highway Engineering, Rural Roads and Pavements'. It provides a lot of information about roads and their construction before the use of heavy equipment. It shows how it was done by horse drawn equipment. I think it is useful for MP settings. A link to a modern book about gravel roads can be found under the external links in the Wikipedia article about gravel roads.

[mikeo80]

To Stormlion:

This part of the US is an interesting choice for a Morrow Game. If you use either V3 or V4, much of this area was turned into radioactive glass pits. In my reading of both versions, the only area that MIGHT have survived are the south jersey pine barrens, the southern most jersey shore and maybe the north east corner of Delaware. Heck, some of the refineries could still be burning in south Philly depending on the year you pick

I refer you to Nathan Decker's work as posted on The Supply Bunker Web Site.

http://www.thesupplybunker.net/Trave...nsylvania.html
http://www.thesupplybunker.net/Trave...ew_jersey.html
http://www.thesupplybunker.net/Trave.../delaware.html

I am interested in seeing some of the rationale of our campaign. I was born in Philly and spent many a happy moment on the jersey beaches.

How are you going to conduct your campaign? PBEM? I would be very interested in joining in if you have room. I can play Recon, or Science. Not so good with MARS. I have played First Contact specialist several times.

Let me know what I can add to the game if anything.

My $0.02

Mike

[stormlion1]

I'm not running the game, the man running it was picking my brain for details as I spend a lot of time in the Pine Barrens doing things. I'm a Piney at heart I think. Sadly its not PBEM, we actually get together every two weeks in Cape May for gaming. Mix of Roleplaying and Miniature war gaming, usually Battletech. Keeps everyone from getting bored with one thing. What little I am contributing is info on old towns like Belcoville and Amatol (World War 1 Ammunition plants in the Pines), and the state of the roads and building after almost a hundred years of abandonment and old roads and railroad tracks from the past that were laid out and abandoned. You would be surprised how many there are in the Pines and by the Jersey shore.
All I really now about the campaign he is planning is one bridge to PA or Delaware will survive and there is lots of flooding in Southern NJ and will be flooded or covered in Pines. I do know the nuke bound for Hope Creek went from a Air Burst to landing in the Delaware River and exploding there. So I'm guessing Hope Creek survives but the Delaware Bay is a radioactive nightmare south of that. I think he is using the Supply Bunker for ideas but is updating the time period. I know he plans to have more towns surviving for one. I won't know until mid January when he starts the game up.

[mikeo80]

To Stormlion:

Rats. I was hopping for PBEM. Oh well.

I understand what you are getting at as far as abandoned roads, buildings. Grew up near Philly, now live in North Carolina. You go out of Fayetteville more that a few miles, you will find roads that go nowhere, old railroad tracks, abandoned buildings of all sorts.

IMHO, IF you follow 150+ years for TMP, roads as we know them are GONE. Nature takes over fairly quickly. You might find a stretch here or there, especially if there is a viable trade route going from point A to point B. The economics of the route will insure that there is something there. It will probably be set up for horse drawn wagons at most. You probably could find the odd roadside inn or tavern if there is enough distance and enough traffic.

My 0.02

Mike

[stormlion1]

A lot of modern day roads follow much older roads (which explains why the roads in NJ are so screwed up) so it would make sense that after a nuclear war many of the direct more traveled route roads would last a lot longer than roads less traveled. So even after 150 years some modern routes would still be there just much smaller. Side roads and places like abandoned community's would be just grown over messes barely visible if at all on the sides of those roads.

[Gelrir]

For our current campaign, I've been making a few Photoshopped "what the terrain looks like" images.

http://asmrb.pbworks.com/f/135869475...20road%207.jpg

http://asmrb.pbworks.com/f/136261542...rds%20Bend.jpg

http://asmrb.pbworks.com/f/136624649...oned%20I90.jpg

http://asmrb.pbworks.com/f/136977386...e%20Salmon.jpg

Vegetation grows up through the asphalt, sand and dirt blow over it, volcanic ash can cover areas meters deep ...

--
Michael B.

[welsh]

I think this raises some really interesting ideas. Generally I would guess most of your trade routes will follow the natural geography more than current infrastructure.

The environmental consequences of war (long winters) and neglect would undo much of your infrastructure in the North, hot weather would have its impact on the south, and in the West you'd like to have a variety of more localized environmental challenges, not the least of which part of the road just being buried. Bridges, tunnels would vary in their condition.

In comparison- modern Zaire/Congo and much of West Africa lost much of its infrastructure rather quickly during the 1990s as the result of war and state collapse. The US would likely suffer much of the same.

Pre-war instrastructure would still be relevant. I would be curious if the railways would be in better condition than interstate highways. But population centers that survive the war would matter in terms of local care and upkeep.

This is a fascinating topic. Any re-builder would have to figure out the problems of economic organization- from resources to finished goods, and the movement of such goods, and there would be a political and social consequence at stake.

[ArmySGT.]

I think for the most part trade routes are going to be small overlapping circuits traveled by the same traders (or family there of). In this way products could move from Texas to Idaho but, it would take months and become prohibitively expensive at either end.

Lets take 90 weight axle grease for example. Certainly a product of "Oilers" in the panhandle region. Common and low value there, as it moves along the route, its value increases with each trader trying to make a little profit. Each Trader may move through several communities taking a month to six months to make a full circuit. That circuit in the case of western states may all be in the same county! Maybe out of Idaho there is a source for refined copper and new copper jackets bullets are produced. Common there but highly valued 500 miles or more away.

Trade is likely going to be horse / mule trains as the most adaptable to any terrain with "Gypsy Truckers" using the major interstates where communities do some to keep the roads and trade open.

[mikeo80]

Most of the trade I have seen in previous games has been by single to small groups of traders. Some walked, these tended to be "tinkerers" who would move from little settlement to the next, plying their trade, swapping their talents for food, water, shelter, and other goodies.

Horse born trade was also prevalent. THese tended to be small groups, 5 - 6 people at most.

Depending on the state of the trails in the area, there were some horse and wagon traders.

My $0.02

Mike