Methanol Production

[mikeo80]

I had a lot of twigs and small branches come down during some of the recent windstorms. I went out and worked for about an hour cleaning this crap up As I was doing this, I started to think. (Please get the women and children to the lifeboats! )

My thoughts wandered into methanol. Small twigs and branches strike me as excellent fodder for a still. I know that they would have to chopped up a lot finer than I did.

I guess that I cleaned up 10-15 Kg of trash in the hour I worked. A small still in T2K needs 30 Kg of crap a day to keep running. (V2.2, Pg 59)

So, 2 - 3 hours of gathering, an hour of prep, and the still is happy. For today. You have to do this again tomorrow.

Any thoughts or comments on my math are welcome.

My $0.02

Mike

[.45cultist]

Depends on how much "sugar" is in the material. Perhaps one might mix in flowers or cornstalks. A maple might be enough.

[kato13]

Unfortunately the game designers got methanol totally wrong.

Using basic methods you can only extract 20 liters of methanol from 1000kg of wood. (Plasma gassification would be a non-"basic" method)

From wood you could make ethanol if you have sulfuric acid to break down the cellulose or have cellulose metabolizing yeast (something they are only just working on now).

More discussion here.
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=226

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by kato13

Unfortunately the game designers got methanol totally wrong.

Using basic methods you can only extract 20 liters of methanol from 1000kg of wood. (Plasma gassification would be a non-"basic" method)

From wood you could make ethanol if you have sulfuric acid to break down the cellulose or have cellulose metabolizing yeast (something they are only just working on now).

More discussion here.
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=226

With that being said, just what the heck are the vehicles in T2K going to run on?

If Methanol is not productive, ethanol is great, except most of the grain or beets or potatoes that exist in Europe are going into peoples stomachs, Petroleum is a dream from a lifetime ago.

So, any ideas what could be used?

My $0.02

Mike

[kato13]

In 2007 scientists came up with a yeast that produced its own cellulose disrupting enzymes. You could always push that back 25 years and make ethanol production from cellulose take 50-100% longer than production from sugar.

In the real world the yeast has had issues but that is an easier magic wand to wave than ignoring some of the basic rules of chemistry and biology.

There really are not many other good options.

Biodiesel is too disruptive to food-stocks and high lipid algae is no where near ready for primetime.

[schnickelfritz]

If I remember right there is a method for converting used cooking greases/oils into crude biodiesel...the whole "My Jetta smells like freedom fries" thing. I would not expect it to run well in a more advanced diesel, but would expect it to run OK in a multifuel engine or older conventional diesel.

As long as you would have a number of restaurants/kitchens/rendering locations nearby, you probably could make a fair amount of it, at least in the context of a T2K 1998-2002.

-Dave

[Targan]

Originally Posted by schnickelfritz

If I remember right there is a method for converting used cooking greases/oils into crude biodiesel...the whole "My Jetta smells like freedom fries" thing. I would not expect it to run well in a more advanced diesel, but would expect it to run OK in a multifuel engine or older conventional diesel.

All you need to add is lye (sodium hydroxide) and methanol. The rest of the process is simple, blending and gentle heating. Problems include: biodiesel made with cooking greases and oils becomes thick and goopy in cold weather; biodiesel made using those ingredients will damage natural rubber hoses and seals used in older engines; it has a fairly short shelf life (weeks to months at best).

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Targan

All you need to add is lye (sodium hydroxide) and methanol.

You can use ethanol for this step as well but it needs to be above the 96% purity that you can get from normal distillation. A molecular sieve or zeolites would be needed for that.

[.45cultist]

what about the WWII era "gasifiers" that used wood chips. otherwise someone's gonna have a mowhawk and leather out in the wastes.

[.45cultist]

Refining is over 100 years old, they used to discard gasoline because it had no use(before engines). I wonder if a good reference book might be had for RW and gaming?

[stormlion1]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

what about the WWII era "gasifiers" that used wood chips. otherwise someone's gonna have a mowhawk and leather out in the wastes.

Isn't that just making Methanol? As for the gasifiers themselves...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas_generator

Not the best source, but gets the point across.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

Isn't that just making Methanol? As for the gasifiers themselves...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas_generator

Not the best source, but gets the point across.

Small amounts of methanol would be produced but the bulk of the energy would come from hydrogen and methane.

[schnickelfritz]

Looking for articles or material on refining in a primitive setting?

Try this...I'm a model railroader when I'm not thinking T2K, and T2K was what I thought of first when I saw this originally.

A copy might be had of this issue at your local library.

http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/tips-pr...s-oil-refinery

This seems ideal...the tools/technology needed seems to be at least as backwards as would be needed in a T2K setting of 1999-2004.

If you could get oil to the surface, you could make something resembling gas and diesel here in limited quantities. Limited quantities are better than nothing.

My guess is that older cars and trucks would run better on the gas.

You could probably tie this in with the Challenge article "Pennsylvania Crude".

-Dave

[.45cultist]

Thanks, another rewarding thread!

[Cdnwolf]

Originally Posted by schnickelfritz

Try this...I'm a model railroader when I'm not thinking T2K, and T2K was what I thought of first when I saw this originally.


http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/tips-pr...s-oil-refinery

You could probably tie this in with the Challenge article "Pennsylvania Crude".

-Dave

Cool... what scale do you use. I am doing a N scale setup.

[schnickelfritz]

Most of what I have, except for the "around the tree holiday stuff" is HO scale.

I would thing the tech level of something late 1800's-1920 could be supported on at least a small scale.

What you could do most likely would be a weird conglomeration of old/crude and some high tech (advanced filtration maybe), all depending on what you had available in your area.

Journeys into industrialized areas (like that around Chicago) for parts could be mini-campaigns in themselves.

A lot of the old industrial gas engines, including those used in "farm trucks" and anything WW2-era have really low...7.5-8:1 compression ratios that would probably run OK on something in the 75 octane range. I remember reading a data plate once for a CCKW and marveled at how crude the gas could be.

-Dave

[headquarters]

I think the game makers either got methanol production wrong or intentionally did so to get vehicles rolling in game. ( Suspension of disbelief style bending of chemistry and physics laws.. after all they only factored in a 33 times more efficient methanol production..)

Gathering 30 kgs of wood doesnt take long if access to a forrest or other vegetation.

Using regular basic methods could be the way to keep vehicles running.

Ethanol is another possibility - could be extracted from some none edible crops maybe, but I guess would compete with food/fodder crops.

But I am also thinking SVO could alleviate the problems. Straight vegetable oil mixed with a small percentage alcohol.

It is not a complicated process once you have something to filter oil through. ( We are talking microns) But filters are commonly available - though probably worth a bunch in T2K.

The problem would be farming the oil producing crops/ competeing with the need for food/fodder. Communities could probably do it as a cottage industry.

Gasification is possible - but not practical for heavy/armoured vehicles I think- efficiency is not high.

gas like methane/butane could work, and could be extracted from cesspools and animal menure. It would take quite the skill to make engines run on it - though manufacture is relatively easy. Chinbese farmsteads use it to some extent to power heating / cooking.

Other than that I dont see many options unless you had access to prewar fossile fuel sources and process/ refining facilities.

Making fuel is hard. Reliance on fossil fuels is total. I dont see any ways a small community could get petrochemicals unless they already had a source and the knowhow to start with. Capped / marginal wells are plentiful in the US though. While not commercially viable today - mabe some could be reopened in T2K .

All in my humble opinion of course - and strictly game related.

[Webstral]

The concept of a wood gas generator being described in detail by FEMA (see the link above) brings me back to the age-old question of preparation prior to the nuclear exchange. How much preparation really gets done in any given country between August 1995 and July-November 1997? Obviously, no uniform description is possible. Nonetheless, it's hard to believe that the US or any of the NATO allies is caught flat footed by the first nuclear exchange in July 1997.

I wonder if the survivalist movement would not go semi-mainstream in that civilians we wouldn't ordinarily categorize as "survivalist" organize clubs and even local political movements to address issues of self sufficiency in the event of a major nuclear exchange. Certainly the Dept. of Agriculture would take an active interest in thinking through post-Exchange agriculture, which may be an excuse for having 48% of the US population still be alive in early 2001. While a significant percentage of the US civilian population would be in total denial until the last minute, and while a significant percentage of the population would head for hills and not come back as soon as the Soviets and the Chinese started fighting, a vast swath of the population would fit into the shades of gray category.

[Gelrir]

I did a fair amount of research on gas generator engines for my Morrow Project campaign. They're very useful post-apocalyptic devices, but have some drawbacks, especially for tactical or armored vehicles.
Charcoal is preferred - wood chunks and chips can be used, but are less efficient, make much more tar, smoke and steam, and must be less than 20% moisture content (which means no green wood should be used). Twigs, sticks and bark aren't good, they tend to jam up the hearth; and in fact charcoal is preferably chopped to specific size pellets. A few places might produce biomass briquettes, mostly for non-military uses. Coal can be used, but the mines may not be in operation. High-quality coal is about the same fuel characteristics as good charcoal; low quality coal is about like regular ol' wood.
Starting time is usually at least 10 minutes, and the first 5 minutes of startup are sort of involved, with the operator fiddling with the machinery; and the gasifier continues to operate for another 20 minutes after stopping. You can restart pretty fast if you've only stopped for less than 2 hours. There's a real danger from the large amounts of carbon monoxide produced.
The Imbert-style generator for a military truck is usually a galvanized steel garbage can, or a section of steel culvert, mounted atop a 55 gallon drum (the gasifier unit); the can and drum have to be kept sealed, but are opened to refuel (releasing hot, toxic smoke). The gas generator needs its own precipitating tank (gas bubbling through water) and a cooling radiator (pretty much the same kind of radiator that the vehicle uses for engine cooling).
Diesel engines can be converted, but either need to input a small amount of diesel fuel with each stroke, or (more commonly) replace their glow plugs with spark plugs, and adjust timing, spark etc. like a gasoline engine. Cylinder heads can be reshaped for greater efficiency. Multifuel engines are of course easier to convert.
Energy content: 1 liter of gasoline (0.75 kg) =1.25 kg of charcoal = 2 kg of oven-dried wood or biomass briquets = 2.5 kg 20% moisture wood. This all presumes you have a reasonably efficient gasifier. Other fuels might include corn cobs, nuts, straw, peat, walnut shells, coffee grounds ... Here's a list of possible fuels and their energy content:

http://physics.info/energy-chemical/

The density of charcoal is 208 kilograms per cubic meter. Denser fuel is better, since it reduces the size of your fuel bin, and also means you don't have to stop and refill the gasifier as often.
Transport:

• 200 liter (55 gallon) drum can hold about 42 kg of charcoal ... energy equivalent of 21 liters of gasoline
• 120 liter (32 gallon) trash can holds about 25 kg of charcoal ... energy equivalent to 12.5 liters of gasoline. An empty trash can of this size weighs 7 kg including lid.

Hauling along a wood chipper would make a "traveling convoy" much more self-sufficient.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bmD_6VmcTq...2BGasifier.jpg

Issues for military vehicles: large, bulky size per horsepower; the gasifier itself gets very hot, and is a lot of the "extra" bulk -- so it should be outside the armor, which makes it vulnerable to damage. If the gasifier and the actual engine are at different ends of the vehicle, some rather vulnerable (and hot) plumbing is needed to carry the gas between the ends. When you run out of fuel, you have to wait at least 10 minutes before adding another batch of fuel. Continuous-feed systems are possible, but much more complicated than the basic "open the lid, throw in another batch of fuel" system.
This page talks about some of the issues on power reduction, RPMs, etc.

http://woodgas.nl/GB/woodgasification.html

Here are some pages with pics and info:

http://www.gekgasifier.com/info/intro
http://www.build-a-gasifier.com/Gas-Producer-Cars.html
http://www.ush2.com/978-1-60322-027-9_detail_page.htm
- huh, that one has a gas-generator motorcycle, hadn't seen that before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wo...pa_tractor.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:99woodgas.jpg
- you don't have to have the gasifier on the same vehicle even. This would work pretty well for converting a diesel locomotive.
http://www.build-a-gasifier.com/Gas-Producer-Cars.html
- info on WW2 German gasifier Volkswagens
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/90117364
http://jimayson.wordpress.com/2008/0...y-were-smokin/
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/...-gas-cars.html
http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-6294...e-borg-on.html
http://www.robertsarmory.com/gas.htm

--
Michael B

[Webstral]

Great resources! Thanks so much for doing all this homework and sharing it with us, Gelrir.

I knew that the Swedes had converted a considerable portion of their operable automobile fleet to wood gas during WW2. I think I read about this at least 5 years ago. Somehow or other, it never occurred to me to apply this idea to Twilight: 2000 until others on this thread posted links.

I agree that fighting vehicles are not well suited for wood gas adaptation. Soft-skinned transport vehicles, on the other hand, seem like good candidates. AFV may burn more fuel per period of operation than trucks, but trucks are going to be needed much more frequently on an ongoing basis. The ability to reserve alcohol (of any type) for the fighting vehicles would be absolutely huge. My first thought was that trucks converted to wood gas would be a game changer for units like the 104th Infantry Division. The possibilities, while far from limitless, seem varied and promising. One of MilGov's chief exports in 2001 might be the appropriate equipment and expertise for fabricating all of the equipment necessary to convert trucks to wood gas.

[Webstral]

The more I think about syngas from non-edible biomass, the more I think this may be the silver bullet for Milgov, Civgov, and the larger cantonments. The technology might not be especially sophisticated, but if you don’t know about the principles and don’t have anyone to teach you, you’re not going to be able to exploit the opportunity to wring fuel for internal combustion from non-edible biomass. Syngas can put the motorized back into motorized infantry. The Colorado cantonment might not be able to use wood gas to move AFV into action, but they can use biomass to use trucks to give infantry and their support weapons operational mobility. Combine trucks running on syngas with infantry and heavy mortars and ultralights [from Airlords of the Ozarks], and you have the ability to project power across distances marauder bands couldn’t dream of. At the very least, the wide open spaces of eastern Colorado will be relatively easy to police. Moreover, syngas might be used to power generators powering pumps to bring water up from the Ogallala Aquifer. If the electrical power from the Ft. Vrain nuke plant is used to make ammonia, Milgov’s Colorado supercantonment has all the ingredients for domination, drought or no drought.

While I readily acknowledge that the run up to the Exchange probably will see widespread dissemination of gasification technology, it’s entirely possible that the chaos of the years immediately afterwards will see the loss of this knowledge in many locations. This is another thing Colorado Springs can offer. Even with just ham radios, knowledge of the technology can be disseminated. Once Colorado starts reindustrializing, gasifiers can be fabricated much more cost effectively there and transported where they are needed with airships.

[Brother in Arms]

So Northern New England where I am from might be suddenly more useful

Why not divert Maple Syrup Production to Ethanol production?

I think Methane gas would probably be easier lots of poop and dead bodies around to make it from.

I made a wood gassifier once it was interesting and worked but was also really scary glad it never blew up!!

Brother in Arms

[Webstral]

BIA, I was thinking of New England specifically when I thought about how gasification might be a game changer for cantonments with lots of trees around. A while ago, I did a little math on turning maple sap into ethanol to fuel the gun trucks of the State of Vermont cantonment. You need a lot of maple sap to make ethanol to run even a small fleet of trucks any distance. Worse, the primary maple sap production areas aren’t collocated with the main population center in and around Burlington. Maple sap is a resource, so be sure. Any sap can be turned into fuel, as the Japanese proved at the end of WW2. But it’s a resource that seems to have real limitations—worth pursuing by the desperate, though.

[Brother in Arms]

This would never have been thought of in T2k but its an interesting idea

http://modernfarmer.com/2014/01/maple-syrup-revolution/

kinda scares me though.

[Webstral]

How interesting! Perhaps a reworked timeline might allow some innovator to figure this out in the early 1990's. Even if the maple sap isn't used to make fuel, the additional calories in Vermonters' diets post-Exchange would be very welcome indeed. And from land that would be easily controlled on the eastern side of the Champlain Valley to boot!

Good find.

[Brother in Arms]

Webstral

I am not sure why this was never tried before? because to me the sap is going up to trees extremities from the ground logically where its drawing water from.

Not coming down from the top...any wood cutter who ever cut a maple in spring would know this...The sap literally pours up out of the stump sometimes producing saliva like foam that runs off of it onto the ground.

I think the maine reason no one ever tried it the thought young trees wouldn't produce enough sap or that taking from them would stunt there growth and they couldn't grow to maturity to produce more.....however the young trees need a lot of sap to grow and apparently cutting of the top doesn't kill the tree.

Secondly Webstral!!!!!!
You and I should really do a VT based campaign, story or something as well as NH and possible Maine Connection I have soooooo many ideas.

Brother in Arms

[Webstral]

BIA, maybe when I have published Silver Shogun we'll have a go.

I've done more reading and research on gasification technology since last I posted, and it really seems like the answer to so many problems. I'm going to introduce syngas as a fuel for the non-tactical vehicles of the Shogun's motorized army. I'll justify it by having the idea come to him through others who paid attention and maybe built working models when FEMA distributed info during the non-nuclear phase of WW3.

[Brother in Arms]

WEB

I haven't read your Silver Shogun post yet. But I just moved back from Pahrump Nevada to Vermont about (4 months ago) if that can help you in anyway.

Let me know I have tons of Ideas for Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont. I think in heavily wooded states gasification would make a lot of sense. Next easiest is probably Methane (heck you could digest corpses to make fuel).

Or you could go the whole Bio-diesel route though still not "easy" to make it's do able. As is recycling waste oil that be used in diesel engine.

Alcohol production for sure seems to be the most difficult way to do and if your going to make it why not just make booze?????

Brother in Arms