G3A3: Last Battle Rifle On Earth

[Brother in Arms]

As much as I love a good rack grade M14....or a sloppily camouflaged Rhodesian FAL....It's impossible to ignore the rugged workman like nature of the G3A3 rifle.

While it's considered almost plebeian today found in the hands of 3rd world fighters. In late 1950's when it appeared it was pretty much the pinnacle of battle rifle technology (AR-10 aside perhaps).

Originally produced by both Rheinmetal and H&K (later only H&K) it was based on the CETME rifle. Produced in the powerful 7.62X51mm cartridge. Designed to be highly mass produced from precision sheet metal stampings. And using the unique roller delayed blow back system it was distinctly different from any of it's competitors who used rotating and tilting bolts respectively. It's competitors were made from heavy milled forgings and were typically longer as it sported a modern 18" barrel. Early models sported wood furniture later they were seen with polymer only. It was capable of mounting a quick detachable scope and could also mount a bayonet and fire rifle grenades. Magazines were originally steel later aluminum construction to save weight.

The rifle proved to be almost as unstoppable as the AKM. It's ergonomics are a little weird with the charging handle being very far forward. A hard to operate selector lever. And sights that are large (both aperture and front site) It proved to be highly accurate as well.

I think the G3 will soldier on until the days of fixed center fire cartridges are over.

Brother in Arms

[kalos72]

G3 is stamped?

I always like the 7.62 round versus the 5.56...maybe this is a solid option for a postwar weapon replacement?

I liked the AR-18 concept but hated it in 5.56...

LOVE the rifle though...still want one myself.

[waiting4something]

Out of the "big three" 7.62x51 NATO battle rifles. I would pick the G3 last. It's solid enough, but has some short comings the other two don't. You mentioned two of them with the charging handle placement and the selector switch. The other negative is the dead man's click. It also seems to have the worst or most felt recoil of the three. A lot of the G3's out there had those slim forends too. I never shot with a slim one, but they look like they would get hot fast.

I think it is cool Cold War rifle though. I just never understood why HK-91's where so highly praised back in the 1980's and 90's.

[Brother in Arms]

Kalos:

the G3 has a unique sheet metal receiver that is electronically welded together. It doesn't have rivets like an AK.

I also am a fan of 7.62x51mm. I don't hate 5.56 however. It serves a purpose, I just thing 7.62x51mm can serve more purposes.

AR-18 is a interesting firearm, too bad it never caught on because the US government had already spent so much money on the AR-15/M16 system.....Stoner also designed a prototype 7.62 version of the AR-18 called the AR-16 but it was never put into production.

Waiting for something:

The lack of a bolt hold open can definitely be an issue. Or it can be one less part to go wrong. The AK seems to keep soldiering on without one. But they are nice feature to have. Especially if you are used to weapons that have the feature using one without it can be annoying.

As far as felt recoil. I have fired the M14, FAL, and G3 together the FAL defiantly has the least. The M14 has more muzzle climb than all the others. And the G3 seems to have a lot of muzzle blast and definitely has some kick.

The Skinny forend is my favorite as far as appearance goes. In some of the very early guns it was made of metal! Then wood and then polymer. The thicker "tropical" forend is now a bit more common. I haven't noticed the thin hand guard super hot but I'm sure it would on full auto. Another reason they went with the thick forend was so that the bi pod could be used.

[.45cultist]

I think of weapons and ammo as socket sets, different ratchets(5.56 is 3/8, 7.62 is 1/2, .50 is a breaker bar)with a lot of sockets.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Out of the "big three" 7.62x51 NATO battle rifles. I would pick the G3 last. It's solid enough, but has some short comings the other two don't. You mentioned two of them with the charging handle placement and the selector switch. The other negative is the dead man's click. It also seems to have the worst or most felt recoil of the three. A lot of the G3's out there had those slim forends too. I never shot with a slim one, but they look like they would get hot fast.

I think it is cool Cold War rifle though. I just never understood why HK-91's where so highly praised back in the 1980's and 90's.

I've owned all three of the big three as well, with the M14 being the Squad Auto version with the pistol grip and drop fore grip (And man is that thing controllable at full auto - miss having a Class Three dealer license). Love the M14, but I preferred the G3 over it and the FAL. FAL is nice, don't get me wrong - I'll take it over a stock M14. But the mags: they flat out suck. Look at it hard, you got a bent lip, and then you got the whole metric/imperial thing.

Now that said, again, if I didn't live in a communist country, err... my bad, Maryland (Which recently banned so many firearms its amazing: one of the categories is labeled: Anything made by Springfield Armoury) I would love to pick up a DSA OSW, and base it off of a registered receiver. Be a lot of fun to shoot.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by kalos72

G3 is stamped?

I always like the 7.62 round versus the 5.56...maybe this is a solid option for a postwar weapon replacement?

I liked the AR-18 concept but hated it in 5.56...

LOVE the rifle though...still want one myself.

You need an AR-16 -- same thing in 7.62mm NATO. They're scarce as hen's teeth though, and you could probably buy a fully-equipped Cadillac Escalade for the price of an AR-16, if you found for sale.

[Schone23666]

Weren't they finding G3's in armories and weapons caches in Iraq? I'm guessing at least some of them were captured from the Iranians during the Iran/Iraq War?

Then again, I heard they found all sorts of "antique" firearms in weapon caches around there....Lee-Enfield rifles, MP-40 submachine guns, MG-42 machine guns, the occasional flintlock pistol(!) etc.

[Brother in Arms]

No dice on the AR-16, since only 3 were known to exist and Reed Knight only has pictures of 2 out of 3 of them!!!! (his collection has some of the Rarest Ar's ever made and many were personally owned by Eugene Stoner)

Sadam had alot of G3's I am guessing most were Iranian, but Turkey also made them under licence so he may have had some from there as well. Also Portugal,Pakistan,Norway, Sweden,Luxembourg,Denmark,UK produces these rifles.

Edited to add: Also France, Mexico and Myanmar(burma) Saudi Arabia, Thailand may still be producing these rifles.

So they are literally found all over the world. Also they seemed to have replaced the once ubiquitous FAL platform in most places around the globe.

Brother in Arms

[Sith]

The primary reason why the G3 is more prevalent than the FN FAL is that HK licensed production in more countries than FN did. While the FAL was used by more countries, they chose to sell them the rifles vice allowing them to set up a factory. Hence, more G3 factories are still churning out rifles. Logistic, logistics, logistics.

It's too bad too, in my opinion, as I like the FAL better. I've fired Bundeswehr issue G3s (as if they were really any different from other G3s) and I've got to say that, while its a good rifle, the ergonomics and stout recoil are real negatives. Plus, if you weren't careful that thing would give you a black eye, I saw a couple of guys come off the range with nice shiners.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

Then again, I heard they found all sorts of "antique" firearms in weapon caches around there....Lee-Enfield rifles, MP-40 submachine guns, MG-42 machine guns, the occasional flintlock pistol(!) etc.

And the MP44. We have several members of this forum who saw them in Iraq, and one member (Panther Al IIRC) who actually went out on patrols armed with a captured MP44.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Targan

And the MP44. We have several members of this forum who saw them in Iraq, and one member (Panther Al IIRC) who actually went out on patrols armed with a captured MP44.

Yep. Three patrols, until higher pitched a fit when someone saw my crew walking patrol with a pair of MP44's, a 40, and an Iranian MG3 - and no helmet covers. I was told just because I was born in Germany didn't mean I was in the German Army.

Gotta love the Cav: only place in the line army where you can get away with stunts like that - and even then, only because we only had enough long arms for half our men.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Sith

The primary reason why the G3 is more prevalent than the FN FAL is that HK licensed production in more countries than FN did. While the FAL was used by more countries, they chose to sell them the rifles vice allowing them to set up a factory. Hence, more G3 factories are still churning out rifles. Logistic, logistics, logistics.

It's too bad too, in my opinion, as I like the FAL better. I've fired Bundeswehr issue G3s (as if they were really any different from other G3s) and I've got to say that, while its a good rifle, the ergonomics and stout recoil are real negatives. Plus, if you weren't careful that thing would give you a black eye, I saw a couple of guys come off the range with nice shiners.

Agreed: I like the FAL better as well, better feel to it, but...

The Mags and the whole imperial/metric thing. Its the mags that kill it the most for me. I want to know when I grab a mag, that its going to work. Its not going to be a metric when my rifle is imperial, or vice versa, that it will feed and not jam because I looked at the magazine lips too hard. And the biggest mistake in FAL production was by the Brits when they converted the drawings to imperial when they started making them in England - and promptly sent them everywhere.

[Targan]

I never had any problems with the mag lips when I was carrying the SLR... but then, I never went into combat with one either. Having said that, the SLR is still the rifle for me. Love 'em.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The other thing with the Imperial-size magazines is that as I've been given to understand, they were made of thicker sheet metal (or maybe the claim was better quality, my memory is a bit hazy on this 20 years after the fact).
I know from personal experience that many of the Australian made magazines were quite robust and I never heard of or experienced any problems with the mag lips unless it was from more than general use/wear & tear.
Can any of the British members comment on the UK made SLR mags?

[Panther Al]

Granted, my experience has been Metric: those are garbage.

[dragoon500ly]

I've fired all three, if forced to make a final choice, I'd have to go with a FN-FAL, I own the SAR-48 from SA and have throughly enjoyed it for almost eleven years with no problems (insert fist knocking on wood!).

I fired the G3 when qualifying for my 'shooter's rope' and just plain didn't like the feel of the weapon, not one I would like to go into harm's way with.

The M-14, I'm of two mind's about; I have always love the Garand mechanism and my first choice is my trusty M-1, the magazine is nice, but I've always had issues with the muzzle jump on the -14.

Ah well, to each his own, I'm heading to the range tomorrow for some quality time with my M-1911A1 and M-1 Garand! Long Live the Dinosaurs!!!!

[Sith]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

The Mags and the whole imperial/metric thing. Its the mags that kill it the most for me. I want to know when I grab a mag, that its going to work. Its not going to be a metric when my rifle is imperial, or vice versa, that it will feed and not jam because I looked at the magazine lips too hard. And the biggest mistake in FAL production was by the Brits when they converted the drawings to imperial when they started making them in England - and promptly sent them everywhere.

This is becoming less of a problem. I don't know this for a fact, but I believe that all inch pattern rifle production has ceased. Maybe there is one out there churning out spare parts, but the only factories I know of that are still turning FALs are metric. Inch pattern rifles are becoming increasingly rare.

I've been shooting metric rifles for nearly twenty years now and have yet to experience a magazine failure. The only problem I ever had was that one of my past rifles did not like Winchester white box ammo, played with the gas block all afternoon but couldn't get it to work right. Once I switched out ammo it ran quite nicely. I've heard that FALs can be finicky about ammo, and because of that experience I can kind of believe it, but that was the one and only time I had a problem. I've run different ammo through other rifles without any difficulties, so...

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Sith

This is becoming less of a problem. I don't know this for a fact, but I believe that all inch pattern rifle production has ceased. Maybe there is one out there churning out spare parts, but the only factories I know of that are still turning FALs are metric. Inch pattern rifles are becoming increasingly rare.

I've been shooting metric rifles for nearly twenty years now and have yet to experience a magazine failure. The only problem I ever had was that one of my past rifles did not like Winchester white box ammo, played with the gas block all afternoon but couldn't get it to work right. Once I switched out ammo it ran quite nicely. I've heard that FALs can be finicky about ammo, and because of that experience I can kind of believe it, but that was the one and only time I had a problem. I've run different ammo through other rifles without any difficulties, so...

India may still have facilities to produce inch-pattern SLRs but I'm pretty sure everybody else has shut down about twenty years ago (UK, Canada, Australia). Anybody else using inch pattern bought L1A1s from one of those four countries (although I think the UK and Australia were the main sellers).

[Sith]

Well, kind of bringing this thread back to the G3. I always thought the HK 32 was kind of cool. During the 60s HK created a 7.62x39 mm version of the G3 to market to countries fielding the AK 47 / SKS. It never took off though and they dropped the idea in the early 70s. I guess they didn't expect the USSR to pass out AKs like candy.

A few prototypes were made, but it never went into production.

[waiting4something]

I was always amazed that the G3 lasted as long as it did in service. I don't know why the Germans didn't just switch over to the HK 33, when so many NATO countries where going to 5.56x45mm. The HK 33 seemed to only get picked up by 3rd world countries.

[Sith]

The reason why the G3 lasted so long in German service is because they wanted to replace it with the G11 instead of a 5.56 rifle. When the cold war ended and the G11 project was canceled the Germans were kind of stuck with the G3 until all the hurdles involved with reunification were cleared. HK read the tea leaves correctly and began working on a new 5.56 rifle right away (the HK 33 was/is heavy for a 5.56 rifle). Hence, by the time the Bundeswehr was ready to start looking at 5.56 rifles (to conform to NATO standards), HK was ready with the G36.

[Brother in Arms]

In regard to Magazines I had written a decent post about my observations but it got deleted by computer glitch.


M14 mags
At one time I had around 250 M14 magazines made by all the original contract makers in the 50 thru very early 70's All of these functioned flawlessly and most had been in service since Vietnam and were culled out in Iraq Mid 2000's. I also had 50 or so CMI contract magazines made in the original 1997 contract and a few newer ones. I only had one ever fail!!! The only one to fail was an extremely beat 97 contract magazine and the follower would go down and get stuck.

Metric FAL Mags
I have seen a number of these fail...and when I say a number probably 20-30 or more when I worked at Century arms...various countries but most were beat to hell. That being said there guns had receiver geometry problems so they may have worked in a decent gun. I would recommend avoiding Aluminum "parartrooper" FAL magazines except for collectible reasons.. Unless they were perfect and new they seemed to not work reliably and it was due to bending feed lips. I don't have any experience with 30 found Metric magazines.

Inch, Imperial magazines
I have never seen an inch magazine fail. They were heavier than Metric magazines and definitely had a sturdy locking tab brazed on the back, similar to the AK. I have even had good luck with the 30 round L2A1 magazines but seen failures with L4A1 7.62 NATO BREN magazines. These were meant to be gravity fed. They look cool in L1A1 but not reliable. That being said 20 or 30 round L1A1 magazines work fine in the L4A1 BREN.

G3A3 Magazines
I have never seen a Steel G3 magazine fail and to be fair most I have seen were in excellent shape. I have seen a couple of the aluminum magazines fail but these had seen abject abuse!!!! I would say that the aluminum magazines are just as good as the steel but maybe can't take quite the abuse the steel ones can. I haven't used any of the 30 round G3 magazines but they seem to be the same quality as the 20 round aluminum.

Conversely I have seen many steel CETME magazines not feed correctly and malfunction but again century had bad receivers on these guns so they might have worked in an original CETME.


Brother in Arms

[Brother in Arms]

I think one of the reasons the G3 was in service (is as DMR) is because it still works! Also it's simple and cheap (compared to M14 or FAL)

And it has it's faults:
crummy safety lever (leave the safety off, like with AK)
no last round bolt hold open (get used to it)
potent Recoil (toughen up)

It certainly beats a lot of other firearms. I haven't seen an original H&K made gun ever malfunction (only poorly made US clones)

So it's sort of like the AK it's not a Gucci rifle like making today more like a shovel or a Hammer and I kind of like that.

and its got a few weird kinks of assembly dis assembly:

one trick that I learned from an old hand, is when you take the bolt carrier group out of the receiver and you somehow managed to push the bolt head back camming out the rollers so you can't get the bolt carrier back in....All you have to do to reset the bolt head is flip the carrier around backwards and sticking it in the receiver! And voila it will reset the bolt head and you can slide the carrier right back in the receiver.

Brother in Arms

[bobcat]

personally having run all three i'm a big fan of the G3. it might just be ergonomics but i find the G3 to be more accurate out of the box than the FAL or the M14. i never had a big issue with recoil but even with the crappy century clones i've never laid hands on a bad G3.