Ammo stockpiles

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by aspqrz

Which brings up a related issue ... where the heck does the US store all that ammo?

Presumably several places. But where?

Likewise, anyone know for other countries?

I imagine this is not exactly secret info, just not widely publicised or disseminated,

Phil

Alice Springs has a vast complex of ammunition bunkers for the U.S. as a contingency for a war in South East Asia. Guam hosts vast bunkers for the U.S. Navy and the U.S. Air Force.

[Legbreaker]

Alice Springs? The town right slap in the middle of Australia, a thousand miles from nowhere and even further from anywhere important?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Alice Springs? The town right slap in the middle of Australia, a thousand miles from nowhere and even further from anywhere important?

Yup........ vast complex of igloos...... 4-6 U.S. soldiers (Supply) assigned there. I think it is priority target for a SLBM so it is far from any population centers.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Yup........ vast complex of igloos...... 4-6 U.S. soldiers (Supply) assigned there. I think it is priority target for a SLBM so it is far from any population centers.

I think you might be confusing the significance of Pine Gap which is near Alice Springs by thinking or stating that it is the location of a major US weapons and munitions depot.

The US intelligence and satellite tracking station of Pine Gap is located 11 miles (18km) south-west of Alice Springs in the Northern Territiry. The reason it is located in Australia is because it controls US ISR (spy) satellites as they pass over this portion of the globe which includes China, the Middle East and the Asian part of Russia. The reason why the US established an intelligence and satellite tracking station at Pine Gap is because it is so remote and so far inland that passing spy ships cannot intercept US signal traffic.

But for what reason would the US establish a major military munitions depot at such a remote and not easily accessible location as Alice Springs when (1) there are more suitable locations in other parts of Australia, and (2) when the US already has Military Prepositioning Ship (MPS) squadron at Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean and at Guam in the north-western Pacific.

Also if the US has a military munitions depot in Alice Springs then the US and Australian governments would have established a logistical capacity to rapidly redeploy such weapons and munitions from Alice Springs, such as building long runways so that US heavy transport aircraft could land and take off safely. For a fully loaded heavy transport aircraft such as C-5 Galaxy or a Boeing 747 freighter to safely take off you are going to need a runway of 10,000 feet, or maybe even longer. Alice Springs Airport has two runways, the longest is 7,999 feet. The nearest suitable runway for US heavy transport aircraft in the Northern Territory is Darwin International Airport (also RAAF Base Darwin), and to a lesser extent RAAF Base Tindal in Katherine, both located at the top end of the Northern Territory and nearly 1,000 miles from Alice Springs.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by RN7

I think you might be confusing the significance of Pine Gap which is near Alice Springs by thinking or stating that it is the location of a major US weapons and munitions depot.

The US intelligence and satellite tracking station of Pine Gap is located 11 miles (18km) south-west of Alice Springs in the Northern Territiry. The reason it is located in Australia is because it controls US ISR (spy) satellites as they pass over this portion of the globe which includes China, the Middle East and the Asian part of Russia. The reason why the US established an intelligence and satellite tracking station at Pine Gap is because it is so remote and so far inland that passing spy ships cannot intercept US signal traffic.

But for what reason would the US establish a major military munitions depot at such a remote and not easily accessible location as Alice Springs when (1) there are more suitable locations in other parts of Australia, and (2) when the US already has Military Prepositioning Ship (MPS) squadron at Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean and at Guam in the north-western Pacific.

Also if the US has a military munitions depot in Alice Springs then the US and Australian governments would have established a logistical capacity to rapidly redeploy such weapons and munitions from Alice Springs, such as building long runways so that US heavy transport aircraft could land and take off safely. For a fully loaded heavy transport aircraft such as C-5 Galaxy or a Boeing 747 freighter to safely take off you are going to need a runway of 10,000 feet, or maybe even longer. Alice Springs Airport has two runways, the longest is 7,999 feet. The nearest suitable runway for US heavy transport aircraft in the Northern Territory is Darwin International Airport (also RAAF Base Darwin), and to a lesser extent RAAF Base Tindal in Katherine, both located at the top end of the Northern Territory and nearly 1,000 miles from Alice Springs.

I am trying to recollect a phone conversation I had with my Branch in 2002. I could well be wrong on Alice Springs. This was for a prepositioned muntions stockpile in Australia. My request was denied, the MP position was E8 and the other personnel were Supply. There were less than 10 Americans assigned so this could well be a joint facility.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by RN7

But for what reason would the US establish a major military munitions depot at such a remote and not easily accessible location as Alice Springs when (1) there are more suitable locations in other parts of Australia, and (2) when the US already has Military Prepositioning Ship (MPS) squadron at Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean and at Guam in the north-western Pacific.

Also if the US has a military munitions depot in Alice Springs then the US and Australian governments would have established a logistical capacity to rapidly redeploy such weapons and munitions from Alice Springs, such as building long runways so that US heavy transport aircraft could land and take off safely. For a fully loaded heavy transport aircraft such as C-5 Galaxy or a Boeing 747 freighter to safely take off you are going to need a runway of 10,000 feet, or maybe even longer. Alice Springs Airport has two runways, the longest is 7,999 feet. The nearest suitable runway for US heavy transport aircraft in the Northern Territory is Darwin International Airport (also RAAF Base Darwin), and to a lesser extent RAAF Base Tindal in Katherine, both located at the top end of the Northern Territory and nearly 1,000 miles from Alice Springs.

Don't try to inject logic into the U.S. Army logistics system. You will only drive yourself insane.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Don't try to inject logic into the U.S. Army logistics system. You will only drive yourself insane.

Amen, brother, Amen!

[aspqrz]

According to ...

http://www.anti-bases.org/campaigns/...Australia.html

... the only US facilities in Alice Springs are those that form part of Pine Gap.

There are no US logistics facilities listed - I suppose there could be small onsite ammo stores for local use, but nothing as big as you suggest ... and I seriously doubt it could be hidden well enough for these ferrets to not find out about its existence and publish it the world. After all, Australia is not the DPRNK.

A major ammo storage facility (the largest in Australia) is at Myambat (Muswelbrook, upper Hunter river valley, north of Sydney, in use since 1938), but that's ADF, not US.

Phil

[rcaf_777]

Before

[rcaf_777]

After

[aspqrz]

That's somewhat ... cavalier ... when we had Range Days they checked the soles of our GPs to make sure no spent brass was caught in the tread 'accidentally' ...

Phil

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by aspqrz

when we had Range Days they checked the soles of our GPs to make sure no spent brass was caught in the tread 'accidentally'

That's a bit more extreme that what we had to go through. Just had webbing ammo pouches physically searched (by an NCO simply putting his hands inside), and occasionally we'd have to empty our packs.

After we'd left the range (which usually was the local rifle clubs) there'd be a horde of civilians scouring the mounds for any brass we'd missed to reload. It was also not unknown for older worn out brass to be swapped with the "new" brass we had - as long as the weight was right....

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

That's a bit more extreme that what we had to go through. Just had webbing ammo pouches physically searched (by an NCO simply putting his hands inside), and occasionally we'd have to empty our packs.

But god help you if they found some brass or links in your clothing or gear...they usually make you strip down to your underwear while assuming the position against the wall and insulting and threatening you the whole time. I've even seen Article 15s given out.

Now if they find a live round...well, even god cannot help you at that point!

[pmulcahy11b]

The stockpile pictures remind me of the ammo and weapon "depot" used by Sarah Connor in Terminator 2.

[Legbreaker]

All together now!

"I HAVE NO LIVE ROUNDS OR RANGE PRODUCTS IN MY POSSESSION, SIR!!!"

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

All together now!

"I HAVE NO LIVE ROUNDS OR RANGE PRODUCTS IN MY POSSESSION, SIR!!!"

It was "NO BRASS, NO AMMO, DRILL SERGEANT" for me, only time they ever cared to check us.

[swaghauler]

Also remember that certain "training facilities" are included in Continuity Of Government (hereafter COG) planning. In PA, we have Ft. Indiantown Gap (the GAP to NG soldiers). It contains a large munitions dump (enough ammo for the 28th Division INCLUDING artillery and AT munitions) with at least a couple of MILLION rounds small arms ammo. This ammo is SPECIFICALLY for a COG scenario.
In OH, you have the newly REESTABLISHED Ravenna Arsenal. The Ravenna Arsenal was a decommissioned ammo plant that was taken over by the OH National Guard as a training facility and is now being considered as a Missile Center for the East Coast (THAAD, I'm guessing). There is a huge COG stockpile there as well (2 divisions worth at least).

Then you have the AMSA (Army Maintenance & Support Assistance) depots. There are half a dozen in PA alone. These centers provide technical support (mechanics, admin, and armorers) for up to a dozen reserve or NG units (generally company sized units) and hold stores of weapons, equipment, vehicles, fuel and at least enough small arms ammo (and spare parts) to give every company they serve "one loadout" of rifle and pistol ammo in case of a disaster. The one we have at the Keystone Ordinance Training Center also has a million gallons of fuel in its storage tanks. AMSA Depots are the NG's first line of supply in a disaster. They would be a key resource in the early stages of any NG "call-out."

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Also remember that certain "training facilities" are included in Continuity Of Government (hereafter COG) planning. In PA, we have Ft. Indiantown Gap (the GAP to NG soldiers). It contains a large munitions dump (enough ammo for the 28th Division INCLUDING artillery and AT munitions) with at least a couple of MILLION rounds small arms ammo. This ammo is SPECIFICALLY for a COG scenario.
In OH, you have the newly REESTABLISHED Ravenna Arsenal. The Ravenna Arsenal was a decommissioned ammo plant that was taken over by the OH National Guard as a training facility and is now being considered as a Missile Center for the East Coast (THAAD, I'm guessing). There is a huge COG stockpile there as well (2 divisions worth at least).

Then you have the AMSA (Army Maintenance & Support Assistance) depots. There are half a dozen in PA alone. These centers provide technical support (mechanics, admin, and armorers) for up to a dozen reserve or NG units (generally company sized units) and hold stores of weapons, equipment, vehicles, fuel and at least enough small arms ammo (and spare parts) to give every company they serve "one loadout" of rifle and pistol ammo in case of a disaster. The one we have at the Keystone Ordinance Training Center also has a million gallons of fuel in its storage tanks. AMSA Depots are the NG's first line of supply in a disaster. They would be a key resource in the early stages of any NG "call-out."

That would be a heck of a "pull" to start an adventure. A mixed bag of civvies and soldiers trying to acquire an AMSA for their enclave.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by CDAT

It was "NO BRASS, NO AMMO, DRILL SERGEANT" for me, only time they ever cared to check us.

And don't joke with the drill sergeant and loudly shout, "No ass, no brammo, drill sergeant!!!" You get to do pushups until "he gets tired." Plus you get searched for brass just for the hell of it.

[Raellus]

I've got a missing rounds story, I think.

When I was a pre-teen, my family lived in Ecuador, in a condo next to a Ecuadorian army general. He had an Uzi-armed guard posted outside his house day and night. My little brother and I befriended one of them. In our pigeon-Spanish, we taught him the rules of baseball and, in return, he let us take photos of each other holding the Uzi. We even talked him into giving us a live 9mm round as a souvenir. That was the last we saw of that particular guard.

[swaghauler]

The other "hidden source" of ammunition was touched on in TW2K13...Reloading. In the event of a major "event," I would be hitting Gander Mountain, Dunham Sports, or Field & Stream and acquiring all the bullets, powder, and primers I could get my hands on. I do have bullet molds in some of my calibers, but commercial ones are better. I can make primers (using fulminated Mercury and heavy aluminum foil wrap) and both black and smokeless powder, but the commercial stuff is way better (and safer).
At the height of my competitive shooting "addiction" (I couldn't call it a "career" as it cost me far more money than I won), I had enough reloading components to roll 75K rounds in any given year (I averaged between 30K and 50K rounds shooting IPSIC, IDPA, 3-Gun, and Street Tacticals). I can roll around 15K rounds now that I don't have time to shoot as much. A typical progressive reloading rig would cost about $2K with all the tools and other equipment you need. I can roll about 300 rounds of good ammo an hour on my Dillon 550 Press. Primers would be the biggest problem in a crisis.
I don't understand why the Walking Dead didn't just have the characters grab a reloading press and components in one of the episodes. There would be REAL VALUE in having someone cranking out a thousand rounds a day during the apocalypse...but then they give the characters about a dozen full auto AKs in the show. The odds of there being that many NFA/Class 3 AKs in a single area are simply ASTRONOMICAL. Those should be tri-burst M4's and A2's picked up from dead soldiers, NOT full auto AKs. To make it worse, Rick is actually carrying a full auto AK-74! There might be (at most) a hundred of those in the US. Most in manufacturer's vaults. They should just have used semi-autos. That would be realistic in the US. I guess the problem is that the (not very gun savvy) producers think that Americans can just walk down to the local sporting goods store and pick up a Class 3 weapon.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by aspqrz

According to ...

http://www.anti-bases.org/campaigns/...Australia.html

... the only US facilities in Alice Springs are those that form part of Pine Gap.

There are no US logistics facilities listed - I suppose there could be small onsite ammo stores for local use, but nothing as big as you suggest ... and I seriously doubt it could be hidden well enough for these ferrets to not find out about its existence and publish it the world. After all, Australia is not the DPRNK.

A major ammo storage facility (the largest in Australia) is at Myambat (Muswelbrook, upper Hunter river valley, north of Sydney, in use since 1938), but that's ADF, not US.

Phil

I don't know much about that site. I saw it during a search but, dismissed them as a conspiracy site such as we have here in the States.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I've got a missing rounds story, I think.

I see your story and raise you.

Just before Christmas 1994 I was part of an enemy party attached to 8RAR for a two week end of year exercise. The weather was clear and sunny with temps averaging around the low 40's C (100+ F). Perfect weather for running about the bush in full gear (if you're insane and want to die of dehydration and heat stroke).

Anyway, the first day or two were spent on the range - usual small arms, grenades, etc. While we were on the grenade range someone in my section kicked something in the grass, reached down and pulled out an F88 Steyr AUG. A few questions later and it was confirmed everyone still had their weapons in hand...
Seems somebody in a unit which had been through the area previously had been somewhat lax with their issued equipment. I'm guessing at least one head rolled over that little slip up, probably more - we never did find out what happened after it was handed to the QM.

[aspqrz]

See you and raise you.

I did my tour with Sydney University Regiment 1974-75 and, back then, there were still CMF NCOs and Officers (it was an Officer Training unit, at least theoretically) who had been in it since before the (effective) end of Conscription in 1972 when the only way to be sure of a University deferment was to be in the CMF ('Citizen Military Forces' back then, now the Army Reserve).

Anyhoo, one time when the Signals Platoon was on a weekend Bivvie, one of the Sergeants was reminiscing about ... idiots? ... and regaled us with the story of the bivvie he was on when the announcement came through that conscription was dead.

Two of the other troopies, one an NCO (don't remember whether he was a Corporal or Sergeant), were so effing happy to not have to be in the effing army any more (and they weren't evidently even that polite!) they took their SLRs (Aussie made FN-FALs) by the slings, swung them around their heads, and threw them off the top of the very high hill they had just climbed.

Only to be informed by the (Regular Army) CSM with them that they had to find the damn things before anyone could go home ... took the rest of the day grubbing through the bush, it did

One was more or less intact, the other evidently had (from memory) either a cracked wooden casing around the barrel or a broken buttstock. The CSM took pity on them and they were listed as 'damaged in action' ...

Phil

[Legbreaker]

You call THAT a raise!? Pfft!

A few days later on the very same exercise, our enemy platoon was split into it's component sections, with one assigned to each of three companies (the remainder of the battalion had a very boring few weeks with NO contacts - even though they were told to expect them).

Anyway, the section that was probing the company which had dug in for defensive operations sent a patrol several miles out of the way so they could come at them from the rear - they never made it. While about as far from their own base camp as you could get (which just happened to be on the banks of the local river, just a few hundred metres from the beach where they were feasting on crabs, fish, etc - bastards!) they stumbled upon a rather well camouflaged and extensive marijuana plantation.

It was well known that the growers in the area were fiercely protective of their crops employing all sorts of booby traps and going heavily armed during their regular visits to water, etc their plants. The probing party consisted of four men with two SLR's and two sniper rifles, all with nothing more than blanks and their charming personalities.

Naturally the discovery was radioed in and their orders altered - they were told to sit and guard the plantation for the next 24 hours until the police could arrive and take over. Could have ended quite badly if the growers had shown up.

Although nobody will admit it, we've always believed there was less there after the 24 hours than when they arrived. Would not surprise me in the slightest, knowing them like I did...

[Rockwolf66]

Sounds like the Dopers around my home town.

Knew of one guy who was visiting the local redwoods as a tourist. he encountered a Squad of guys in camouflage and packing some heavy firepower. After chatting him up they warned him to stay on the trail for the next several miles. The Squad of guys was not the cops. The cops have actually found a couple of weapons stashes that have dozens of weapons including actual Assault Rifles and Machineguns.

[aspqrz]

We were on an Beach Assault (!) out the Heads to Patonga, when the Army still had Landing Craft (Middle Harbour? Long time ago) in Sydney and, being the HQ element of Signals Platoon, we were tasked to remain on the Beach while the Rifle Companies 'assaulted' inland along the ridge lines.

Come next morning, our Sergeant had the bright idea to send me and another Sig out to 'welcome' one of the returning parties with an ambush as they came down off the spur and towards the beach.

Being the enterprising sort (the other guy wasn't) I told him (both Privates, see, but he did as I asked) to remain behind a large boulder (the size of a 10 ton truck) where the trail came down off the ridge while I maneuvered around the side of the ridge, behind another large boulder, out of the line of sight ... with my cunning plan.

See, when the Rifle Company's Scouts came down the path, my mate took some pot shots at them (blanks, of course) and I could hear the 'Action: Front' calls ... and the, well, not very bright officer(s) in charge did exactly what I expected. They allowed all of their troops (the 'Company' would have been maybe a Platoon and half, possibly two, in actual strength) to bunch up at the front and immediate sides along the ridge ... me?

I was 30-40 meters along the ridge line and up the side (difficult going) through the bush and then down along the track behind them ... when I came across the Command Group all fixated to the front, not a guard in sight.

If only I'd had a BFA ... as it was, I managed to get off four or five shots by manually recocking my SLR between each one (as you had to, sans BFA) ... I reckon I notionally killed or wounded a lot of them.

They were NOT impressed.

I heard mutterings and complaints that my Sergeant had not been 'playing fair' ... which I rather thought was the whole point of the exercise? Silly me!

I stayed with Sig Platoon ... no way was I having a bar of the genii leading the Rifle Companies!

(Not that HQ Company was all that much better ... at least, on a logistics and organisational level [maybe it was the Junior Officers, dunno, could have been the whole thing was a clusterfuck] ... the expectation that we would have been ready for deployment in 90 days after mobilisation was laughable).

Phil

[Legbreaker]

I have a similar story to that actually.

It was a JNCO course and I was once again enemy during the practical exercise on tactics. Two of us would head off and find hiding places along the path they were to take and when we judged it to be the right time, open up on them.

After probably half a dozen contacts with the two of us usually taking out maybe a third of them each time, we set ourselves up amongst some fallen logs surrounded by bushes and tall grass (maybe 4 feet high). As usual we initiated the contact and they formed up and assaulted our position.

This time though when they came close I stopped firing and let them go past - they'd stopped getting up and running at that point and were just crawling. Of course in the grass they could barely see the muzzle of their rifle, let alone the man either side so they didn't detect me.

Once they were a few metres past, I stood up and started shooting again. I took out every last one of them while the DS stood there laughing his arse off. The "good guys" didn't have a clue what had just happened to them until the DS (still laughing) debriefed them a few minutes later.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

Sounds like the Dopers around my home town.

Knew of one guy who was visiting the local redwoods as a tourist. he encountered a Squad of guys in camouflage and packing some heavy firepower. After chatting him up they warned him to stay on the trail for the next several miles. The Squad of guys was not the cops. The cops have actually found a couple of weapons stashes that have dozens of weapons including actual Assault Rifles and Machineguns.

In the '80's, several U.S. park rangers were trained by army rangers to tackle the farms in the parks. I guess they didn't have a SWAT school, they usually went to FLETC. I just remember the news blurb was "Rangers got to Ranger School" and showed the rangers rappelling from a UH1H.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Also remember that certain "training facilities" are included in Continuity Of Government (hereafter COG) planning. In PA, we have Ft. Indiantown Gap (the GAP to NG soldiers). It contains a large munitions dump (enough ammo for the 28th Division INCLUDING artillery and AT munitions) with at least a couple of MILLION rounds small arms ammo. This ammo is SPECIFICALLY for a COG scenario.
(snip)
Then you have the AMSA (Army Maintenance & Support Assistance) depots. There are half a dozen in PA alone. These centers provide technical support (mechanics, admin, and armorers) for up to a dozen reserve or NG units (generally company sized units) and hold stores of weapons, equipment, vehicles, fuel and at least enough small arms ammo (and spare parts) to give every company they serve "one loadout" of rifle and pistol ammo in case of a disaster. The one we have at the Keystone Ordinance Training Center also has a million gallons of fuel in its storage tanks. AMSA Depots are the NG's first line of supply in a disaster. They would be a key resource in the early stages of any NG "call-out."

The Gap stash would give the existing government of PA quite an advantage, although a convoy from the Gap to Harrisburg might be an adventure in itself.

And if my info is correct, the Keystone Ordinance Training Center is located out near Johnstown, a hotly contested region in Allegheny Uprising.