Airbase Personnel 2000/2001

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by alexei

I was an SP in the USAF from 1989 – 1998. The career field was divided into Security Specialists and Law Enforcement. They were combined into one Security Forces career field in early ’98, just when I was getting out.

Security guarded USAF resources (planes, nukes, etc.) on the installation. LE functioned as gate guards and cops on the base. Some bases had one or the other – most bases had both. At some bases they were used interchangeably, at other bases they were separate. The Security specialty was much larger overall. A small number of LE personnel were also trained as K9 handlers.

During the 1990’s the small arms instructors were brought under the umbrella, because those instructors and the SP’s were the only personnel on most bases to handle small arms on a regular basis. Occasionally for major exercises we got a few auxiliaries from other units, but they were generally worthless.

Both Security and LE went through basic training and tech school at Lackland. Those selected as K9 handlers went through an additional course after LE tech school. Then both Security and LE went through a month of Air Base Ground Defense (ABGD) training at Ft. Dix. In the mid 90’s they moved ABGD training to Camp Bullis near San Antonio. ABGD was very basic infantry skills similar to what is taught in Army basic and AIT.

Some bases had mobility commitments, so the cops would deploy if the aircraft did. On other bases a few would deploy and be replaced by reservists or auxiliaries. For example, when I was in Japan we were slated to deploy to Korea and activate a dormant base if something kicked off over there. A squadron of reservists would replace us at our base in Japan.

Supposedly there were 81mm mortar crews at a couple bases in Korea, but as I avoided Korea like the plague I never saw those.

OT, Misawa or Yokota? You did answer and knew what occurred after this old driver left. You also answered the attitude SP's had about the auxllaries at Yokota. Thanks for the info!

[alexei]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

OT, Misawa or Yokota? You did answer and knew what occurred after this old driver left. You also answered the attitude SP's had about the auxllaries at Yokota. Thanks for the info!

I was at Yokota from '95 until '97.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by alexei

I was at Yokota from '95 until '97.

93-95 for me. I picked up T2K2 in Okinawa and fiddled with it, but I lost my notes. The thought of being half way around the world and trying to get home inspired quite a bit of material. Still wish I had them. BTW, anyone know if PRIMEBEEF or REDHORSE had combat manuals like the SEABEES?

[rcaf_777]

[QUOTE=Olefin;70998][url]http://www.usafpolice.org/units.html[url][QUOTE]

This website also has links to SP/LE equipment and weapons and training

Originally Posted by alexei

Supposedly there were 81mm mortar crews at a couple bases in Korea, but as I avoided Korea like the plague I never saw those.

According to the above there were also FIM-92 Stinger Teams up till the mid 90’s in Korea also

[unkated]

Originally Posted by kalos72

OK, I get the logical point, but there is no canonical reference to Air Force units being pulled from bases or trainer aircraft being used in combat.

That is kind of a bogus argument IMHO. There is next to nothing in cannon that mention that there is an air force for any nation.

By the time the game starts in summer 2000, there has not been enough aircraft flying to be called an air force for a while. So they don't bother discussing it.

Don't mistake that for "the air force has left everything in place."

Originally Posted by kalos72

But what units would typical stay behind when its planes get deployed. Think of Iraq...what units would stay behind?

I think you get a number of base care and feeding people, who become wasted mouths unless you turn them into units that you need.

Aircraft mechanics without aircraft are pointless - but men under military discipline with basic weapons training are called green infantrymen. This is probably one of the sources of the reinforcements or 'rebuilding the division' that are mentioned in cannon.

Do recall that in V2, army troops that have no other qualification have the career "Support," but that does not stop them from being PC carrying a rifle in the game.

Uncle Ted

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by unkated

That is kind of a bogus argument IMHO. There is next to nothing in cannon that mention that there is an air force for any nation.

By the time the game starts in summer 2000, there has not been enough aircraft flying to be called an air force for a while. So they don't bother discussing it.

Don't mistake that for "the air force has left everything in place."



I think you get a number of base care and feeding people, who become wasted mouths unless you turn them into units that you need.

Aircraft mechanics without aircraft are pointless - but men under military discipline with basic weapons training are called green infantrymen. This is probably one of the sources of the reinforcements or 'rebuilding the division' that are mentioned in cannon.

Do recall that in V2, army troops that have no other qualification have the career "Support," but that does not stop them from being PC carrying a rifle in the game.

Uncle Ted

Keep in mind that there is still Air Force activity in Iran and Kenya (as per Frank there are active air force units there) and also that even France has had to reduce its aircraft operations a lot - so no one is still running hundreds of planes anywhere

but even a small force of planes is still an air force - the US had only about a half dozen planes in Bataan during the whole siege but they were still able to effectively run missions, recon, etc. - but you are right there really isn't anything left that would qualify as a pre-war Air Force outside of France and Iran (and even in Iran those numbers are puny compared to what were originally there on all sides)

[swaghauler]

I still have trouble with the idea of "abandoned bases" in Twilight2000. They are all equipment "store houses" for "Continuity of Government" operations (these would NEVER be used in the war without DIRECT PRESIDENTIAL DIRECTIVE) and would be the place to go in Twilight's "worst case scenario." Military Bases have secure, EMP resistant comunications, and a concentration of "hard to find" specialists in a disaster (mechanics, electronics repairmen, medical personnel etc...). They have secure housing, machine shops, heavy equipment, auxiliary power supplies and a fence for security. I cannot see ANY Military Base not under imminent threat of nuclear annihilation being "abandoned" under the conditions put forth in Twilight2000. On the contrary, I think they would be centers of power or conflict due to the technical capabilities they house.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

... (these would NEVER be used in the war without DIRECT PRESIDENTIAL DIRECTIVE)...

What President? From MilGov's point of view there was no legitimate President until 2020.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I still have trouble with the idea of "abandoned bases" in Twilight2000. They are all equipment "store houses" for "Continuity of Government" operations (these would NEVER be used in the war without DIRECT PRESIDENTIAL DIRECTIVE) and would be the place to go in Twilight's "worst case scenario." Military Bases have secure, EMP resistant comunications, and a concentration of "hard to find" specialists in a disaster (mechanics, electronics repairmen, medical personnel etc...). They have secure housing, machine shops, heavy equipment, auxiliary power supplies and a fence for security.

All true, but by the time Jan 1998 comes around some are running low on Food, Fuel, Medicine, etc. Some are overwhelmed by rioters or refugees (last submarine has this). Some are decimated (non Roman army definition) by disease. Some are downwind of fallout. Some commanders are killed in rebellion when the rank and file want to find their families. Some are overrun by Mexican or Soviet forces. Some are the targets of Marauders or become marauders themselves when the food deliveries stop. Some are infiltrated by New America. Some lose battles or defect to CIVGOV.

For any particular base there could be 100 reasons Milgov decides to or is forced to abandon it.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by unkated

<SNIP>
I think you get a number of base care and feeding people, who become wasted mouths unless you turn them into units that you need.

Aircraft mechanics without aircraft are pointless - but men under military discipline with basic weapons training are called green infantrymen. This is probably one of the sources of the reinforcements or 'rebuilding the division' that are mentioned in cannon.

I have to quibble with this to some extent; mechanics and technicians of any kind are not rifle fodder, they are a resource of skills and experience. Certainly give them weapons and teach them how to survive, but for God's sake don't throw them away.
Ever think these guys can help keep your Maintenance values from becoming a major hold-back in your travels? Or their services may be bartered for food, ammo, whatever the village, town, or city-state may have to offer? And you know there is some warlord military commander somewhere that has a museum piece aircraft that he wants to make into a combat machine.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Targan

What President? From MilGov's point of view there was no legitimate President until 2020.

And this is one of my BIG problems with the cannon. The powers who were involved "...creep across the threshold to armageddon, never knowing they had done so until it was over...." BUT the various combatant's civilian governments are still wiped out. If they "crept across the threshold of armageddon," There would have been PLENTY OF TIME to initiate COG. This means that at least ONE civilian US leader (The President, Vice President, or Speaker of The House) along with at least some of Congress would STILL BE LIVING.

This also begs the question of why the rise of "CIVGOV." How would this entity (along with "MILGOV") actually grow to a national movement in the wake of even a limited nuclear war? How would it gather resources and use communications almost exclusively controlled by military assets? Why would BOTH entities EVEN TRY to send much-needed manpower and assets to Europe when there are foreign invaders on US soil (Alaska and the Southwest)? This just doesn't make sense. Why would the states even accept such a directive? My guess is that they wouldn't. I don't see a "CIVGOV" Movement as being anything more than a group of "5th Column conspirators" INSIDE MILGOV/COG established command working against what it sees as an increasingly "totalitarian" regime. I doubt it would ever reach the status of a "competitor" to MILGOV/COG.

New America COULD show up, though. All that's needed is the absence of the federal government and a breakdown in local government to rear its ugly head. This threat could be comprised of the various US Militia Groups, The Sovereign Citizen Movement, and a number of "Conspiracy Theorists" who are seeing their worst nightmares come true under the harsh governance that is COG.

Finally, I wonder why the Dev's never considered the largest threat to a post-nuclear US...The rise of Independent States. There would be literally NOTHING from preventing Ohio or PA from simply "withdrawing" from the Union in the face of ever increasing demands from either a "MILGOV" or a "CIVGOV" entity. Unlike "CIVGOV," the States HAVE the organization and the infrastructure to say "enough" and, in fact, succeed in a withdrawal from The US.

These are just some of issues I have with the original Cannon.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

I have to quibble with this to some extent; mechanics and technicians of any kind are not rifle fodder, they are a resource of skills and experience. Certainly give them weapons and teach them how to survive, but for God's sake don't throw them away.
Ever think these guys can help keep your Maintenance values from becoming a major hold-back in your travels? Or their services may be bartered for food, ammo, whatever the village, town, or city-state may have to offer? And you know there is some warlord military commander somewhere that has a museum piece aircraft that he wants to make into a combat machine.

Exactly! Especially after a nuclear exchange. A great deal of the work that needs to be done will fall under the skill sets of remaining base personnel.

[unkated]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

I have to quibble with this to some extent; mechanics and technicians of any kind are not rifle fodder, they are a resource of skills and experience. Certainly give them weapons and teach them how to survive, but for God's sake don't throw them away.

Ever think these guys can help keep your Maintenance values from becoming a major hold-back in your travels? Or their services may be bartered for food, ammo, whatever the village, town, or city-state may have to offer? And you know there is some warlord military commander somewhere that has a museum piece aircraft that he wants to make into a combat machine.

Maintenance of vehicles that have no fuel is... pointless.

There are 1000 Mexicans with 5 AFVs coming up the road to your air force base. All aircraft in flying condition were consolidated in other bases months ago. You have 100 army soldiers, and 600 base personnel, mostly mechanics (with nothing to maintain but the base motor pool that has enough fuel to run 2 trucks and a hummer) and base ops folks, and a truckload of crates of rifles.

Do you keep all 600 hundred maintaining the two trucks and hummer? Or keep a few on that detail and use the rest to fight the Mexicans?

That would not be my first choice of use for them, but I suspect that in many cases, there aren't a lot of good choices, or sources for reinforcements.

Uncle Ted

[.45cultist]

Maybe they expanded the "Robin Sage" instruction, where such personnel from Pope AFB are the guerillas the Green Beret students must teach as the part of their final exam.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

And this is one of my BIG problems with the cannon. The powers who were involved "...creep across the threshold to armageddon, never knowing they had done so until it was over...." BUT the various combatant's civilian governments are still wiped out. If they "crept across the threshold of armageddon," There would have been PLENTY OF TIME to initiate COG. This means that at least ONE civilian US leader (The President, Vice President, or Speaker of The House) along with at least some of Congress would STILL BE LIVING.

This is all explained in canon. Through a series of misadventures all of the appropriate individuals down through the civilian chain of command were killed by the nukes, died of natural causes or accidents or in some cases committed suicide. IIRC after a number of weeks or months the Presidency fell to the Secretary of Education, but by that stage MilGov had come into being, declared martial law and questioned the legitimacy of the duly appointed Presidential successor.

The issues between MilGov and CivGov were then further compounded when CivGov attempted to hold sittings of Congress (in Omaha maybe?, my memory is hazy) and there were incidents of shootings between purported "Congressmen" vying for their seats. At that point MilGov straight up refused to recognize that any of the CivGov elected representatives were legitimate.

[kalos72]

Originally Posted by unkated

Maintenance of vehicles that have no fuel is... pointless.

Do you keep all 600 hundred maintaining the two trucks and hummer? Or keep a few on that detail and use the rest to fight the Mexicans?

That would not be my first choice of use for them, but I suspect that in many cases, there aren't a lot of good choices, or sources for reinforcements.

Uncle Ted

Of course they fight when needed but you dont simply throw away those skills. IMHO, skills and organization are the most important things in rebuilding.

Swag - I agree. Bases would be the center of rebuilding efforts. Now sure some are empty, destroyed, consolidated but there is no way 800 some bases around the world are all closed.

[WallShadow]

California Fire Department has, currently, 15 OV-10 Broncos in service in firefighting duty. The Phillipine Air Force as of last count had 10 OV-10s out of 24 originally assigned counter-insurgency duties in the 90's. 18 auxiliary-jet engine equipped target-towing models went to Federal Republic of Germany. If you want to know what to do with those surplus technicians, have them retrofit combat gear onto Broncos or whatever training craft that fall into their talented hands.