Canon module omissions - RDF module

[Olefin]

By the way researching the French units and their deployments in Africa has really given me some great ideas for Twilight 2000 campaigns. Given how disorganized Africa became during the war and how France expanded into the area both during and post war it gives a great place for those wanting to play campaigns where the characters are trying to restore order in a broken world (as compared to just trying to survive)

And surprised how much French equipment was not mentioned in the RDF - all kinds of interesting vehicles that they had that characters definitely would have encountered (they did a good job on tanks but stuff like the P4, the VAB, the VBL, etc.) - at least they finally got mentioned by the time the NATO Vehicle Handbook came out in 1991

[James Langham2]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Leg, I got my data from the French Defense Dept site - which is in French by the way and you need to google translate it - the English version of the site has no info on it that is useable.


Here for instance is the address for the 6th Light Armored Brigade

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/pre...legere-blindee

To be clear Leg and James - what is on that site is the actual serving manpower and equipment, not a TOE or projected strength, but the actual number of men and women who are physically part of those units, including where they have been posted in the past. So your argument Leg doesnt hold up in this case, the site is very specific about how many men and in most cases tanks or armored fighting vehicles are physically in reality in the units themselves (i.e. living breathing servicemen and women, not what could be there but what is there), not a projection or TOE statement that is not the real strength.

thus you can see clearly the errror in the RDF module about when the French arrived in Djibouti - they didnt show up in 1995, they were there all along and have been since 1962!

Maybe we should treat this as when French reinforcements arrived?

Originally Posted by Olefin

James if you look at the information it clearly is a trend - I looked at several different formations and you can clearly see a trend that shows the French have taken a lot of losses

To summarize so far

1st Foreign Legion Cavalry Regiment in reality is 930 men and 48 AMX-10 RC, in the game its 600 men and 24 AFV's. (which would be the AMX-10 RC vehicles)

13th Foreign Legion Demi-brigade (posted in Djibouti since 1962) in reality is 800 men, in the game its 500 men and they would only have been in that country - they havent been posted anywhere else to take casualties

Maybe small detachments posted elsewhere?

Originally Posted by Olefin

2nd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment - in reality its at 1230 men organized into ten companies, making it the largest regiment in the French Army (that is a direct quote from the site referenced above). In the game it has 600 men. That is over 50 percent casualty rate!

End of enlistments? Disease?

Originally Posted by Olefin

2nd Foreign Legion Parachute Regiment- which has seen no fighting since it arrived in the Middle East - in reality it has 1140 men organized into 9 compainies, in the game it has 600 men. Again almost a 50% casualty rate.

Lack of parachute capable replacements?

Originally Posted by Olefin

3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment - in reality it has 675 men organized into 5 companies, in the game it doesnt appear but its very obvious that it should be the deployed unit and not the 1st Regiment

1st Marine Regiment - 933 men and 18 AMX 10 RC in reality - in the game they have 500 men and no vehicles, meaning they have lost all their armor and almost half their men.

2nd Marine Regiment - 933 men (broken down as 58 officers, 269 NCO, 606 other ranks) in reality, in the game they are at 500 men - again a huge loss rate

3rd Marine Parachute Regiment - in reality 1120 men in 8 companies, in the game they are down to 750 men

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/pre...erie-de-marine

Plust two big errors that anyone could have found if they had done minimum research

1st Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment - this formation is an administrative regiment and is not a field formation and hasn't been for decades - they are not deployable.

Maybe renamed for a reason (I'm being charitable here...)

Originally Posted by Olefin

5th Mixed Marine Regiment - should be in Djibouti and equipped with AMX 10 RC tanks - its been there since 1965 and is still there today - never been redeployed. -definitely should have been mentioned in the RDF setup


Sorry Leg - this is a clear pattern of the French taking a lot of casualties with some units being reduced by 50 percent or more, in several cases units that would only have been in Africa. Thus the French, in many ways, have taken almost as bad a beating as the Americans have in the RDF in fighting the Somalis, Ethiopians, Eritreans, etc.. at Djibouti. These are not fresh units showing up - these are units that have seen a heck of a lot of combat, with deep holes in their TOE's and a lot of equipment and vehicles gone.

They havent taken those casualties in the Middle East itself - the canon is very clear that they are not doing any fighting there. Some of these units are going to show up in what I am doing for Kenya, which will mention events in surrounding countries as well including Djibouti.

I am continuing to do research but so far the trend is definitely a large reduction in manpower and vehicles for every unit I have seen so far in the French FAR, including among units that have done nothing but be garrison troops since they showed up.

Vehicles due to gradual wear and tear? Transfer to allies?

Originally Posted by Olefin

There is fighting mentioned in Senegal and Mauritania against pro-Soviet guerrillas in the bio of the French commander of the FAR - but that wouldnt explain the losses in the units that were in Djibouti the whole time.

[Olefin]

I think one big mistake people make in looking at the canon is thinking that the French took very few casualties during the war. If you look at the casualty rates that are implied in the RDF its very obvious that the French have been involved in hard fighting throughout Africa since 1995 - fighting that has reduced their units by quite a bit, although as I said not anywhere near the levels seen elsewhere in the world.

As for why they havent been reinforced and the losses made good - its probably a good bet that the fighting in the Netherlands and Germany, which was never detailed, led to the French losing a decent amount of troops and equipment. Those losses, plus the need for French troops to keep order in France and Belguim itself, combined with their needs in Western African and Saudi Arabia/Iraq , have kept the units in the RDF that have seen significant fighting in Africa from being built back up again.

[RN7]

The French had ground and air forces based across Africa in the years leading up to the Twilight War. Most French army units in Africa were Foreign Legion and Marine forces, largely composed of light and motorised infantry equipped with light armoured vehicles, 81mm and 120mm mortars and Milan ATGW. There were also a few armoured cavalry units, field artillery batteries and some helicopters, particularly in Djibouti and the Central African Republic. The relatively light French forces in the region could however be quickly reinforced from France. The French Air Force also had small detachments or combat jets, transports and helicopters located in air bases across Africa, with a full combat jet fighter squadron in Djibouti. In the mid-1980's Chad became a focus of French activity in Africa due to the Libyan invasion of the northern Chad and its support for guerrillas in Africa. French special forces were rumoured to be operating in Chad at this time and there was a powerful Air Force component stationed in the country. French forces in Africa are listed from the NATO Order of Battle 1989/V8.5 and the IISS Military Balance 1990/91 and 1991/92.


CENTRAL AFRICAN REPUBLIC (Bagui): (1,200 troops)
Air Force: (100 troops) (2x Jaguar, 1x C-160)
Army: (1,100 troop) (6x AML-90, 17x VAB, 6x 105mm, 1x Cessna O-1E, 3x Puma)

CHAD (Abeche, Moussoro, N'Djamena): (1,100 troop)
Air Force: (200 troops) (6x Mirage F1, 2x C-160, 2x Puma, 4x Crotale SAM)
Army: (900 troops) (4x Hawk SAM)

DJIBOUTI (Djibouti City): (4,000 troops)
Air Force: (500 troops) (10x F-1C, 1x C-160, 3x Alouette III)
Army: (3,500 troops) (24x AMX-10RC, 51x VAB, 12x 155mm, 5x Puma)

GABON (Libreville): (800 troops)
Air Force: (100 troops) (2x Jaguar, 1x C-160, 2x Alouette III)
Army: (650 troops)
Navy: (50 troops) (1x Atlantic)

IVORY COAST (Abidjan): (500 troops)
Army: (500 troops) (1x Ecureuil)

SENEGAL (Dakar): (1,250 troops)
Air Force: (100 troops) (1x C-160, 1x Alouette III)
Army: (1,100 troops)
Navy: (50 troops) (1x Atlantic)


LA REUNION (Mayotte): (4,200 troop)
Air Force: (100 troops) (1x C-160, 2x Alouette III)
Army: (3,200 troops)
Navy: (900 troops) (1x Atlantic)
12x Ships (4x Frigates, 4x Patrol Craft, 1x Amphibious Vessel, 3x Support Vessel)

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by RN7

The French had ground and air forces based across Africa in the years leading up to the Twilight War. Most French army units in Africa were Foreign Legion and Marine forces, largely composed of light and motorised infantry equipped with light armoured vehicles, 81mm and 120mm mortars and Milan ATGW. There were also a few armoured cavalry units, field artillery batteries and some helicopters, particularly in Djibouti and the Central African Republic. The relatively light French forces in the region could however be quickly reinforced from France. The French Air Force also had small detachments or combat jets, transports and helicopters located in air bases across Africa, with a full combat jet fighter squadron in Djibouti. In the mid-1980's Chad became a focus of French activity in Africa due to the Libyan invasion of the northern Chad and its support for guerrillas in Africa. French special forces were rumoured to be operating in Chad at this time and there was a powerful Air Force component stationed in the country. French forces in Africa are listed from the NATO Order of Battle 1989/V8.5 and the IISS Military Balance 1990/91 and 1991/92.


CENTRAL AFRICAN REPUBLIC (Bagui): (1,200 troops)
Air Force: (100 troops) (2x Jaguar, 1x C-160)
Army: (1,100 troop) (6x AML-90, 17x VAB, 6x 105mm, 1x Cessna O-1E, 3x Puma)

CHAD (Abeche, Moussoro, N'Djamena): (1,100 troop)
Air Force: (200 troops) (6x Mirage F1, 2x C-160, 2x Puma, 4x Crotale SAM)
Army: (900 troops) (4x Hawk SAM)

DJIBOUTI (Djibouti City): (4,000 troops)
Air Force: (500 troops) (10x F-1C, 1x C-160, 3x Alouette III)
Army: (3,500 troops) (24x AMX-10RC, 51x VAB, 12x 155mm, 5x Puma)

GABON (Libreville): (800 troops)
Air Force: (100 troops) (2x Jaguar, 1x C-160, 2x Alouette III)
Army: (650 troops)
Navy: (50 troops) (1x Atlantic)

IVORY COAST (Abidjan): (500 troops)
Army: (500 troops) (1x Ecureuil)

SENEGAL (Dakar): (1,250 troops)
Air Force: (100 troops) (1x C-160, 1x Alouette III)
Army: (1,100 troops)
Navy: (50 troops) (1x Atlantic)


LA REUNION (Mayotte): (4,200 troop)
Air Force: (100 troops) (1x C-160, 2x Alouette III)
Army: (3,200 troops)
Navy: (900 troops) (1x Atlantic)
12x Ships (4x Frigates, 4x Patrol Craft, 1x Amphibious Vessel, 3x Support Vessel)

and we know, per the RDF canon, that more got moved in starting in 1995 both in Western Africa and Djibouti

RDF page 19

1995. The Foreign Legion Operational Group was activated and
sent to Djibouti to assist in internal security duties. A task force
of French Marine Infantry was stationed at Dakar at the request
of the Senegalese government. In 1998, when the Franco-
Belgian Union was formed, Senegal and Djibouti became
member nations.

The biggest break came when the governments
of Kuwayt and Saudi Arabia gave permission for France to station
troops in their countries (to the chagrin of some Americans
in the region). The Paris government responded quickly and by
fall of 1998, the 9th Marine Infantry Division and the 2nd Brigade
of the 1 1 th Airborne Division were in the region along with supporting
elements. There they have remained, providing a visible
symbol of France's commitment to the stability of the region
(and to assure that France gets its share when the Americans
leave).

Structure: The FAR, like CENTCOM, is composed of forces
from all the military services of the nation. The ground force
component consists of the 9th Marine Infantry Division, the 11th
Airborne Division, the 1st Light Armored Division, and the
Foreign Legion Operational Group. The naval component is built
around the Guided Missile Cruiser Jean Bart, and her escorts.
Special operations are handled through the Unconventional Warfare
Operations Group, which controls the Marine Commando
Group (naval commandos) and the 1 st Marine Parachute Regiment.
Not all of these units are fully deployed in the Persian Gulf
area as France has other responsibilities, mainly in west Africa.

[RN7]

I think with the exception of French forces already in Djibouti and one Senegalese parachute regiment, the FAR was sent from Europe to the Middle East.

per RDF..

Rapid Action Force (FAR) HQ: Djibouti, Djibouti

Foreign Legion Operational Group (GOLE) HQ: Djibouti
13th Foreign Legion Demi-brigade (500 men) Djibouti
1st Foreign Legion Infantry Rgt (600 men) Basra, Iraq
2nd Foreign Legion Infantry Rgt (600 men) Djibouti
1st Foreign Legion Cavalry Rgt (600 men, 24 AFVs): Djibouti
2nd Foreign Legion Parachute Rgt (600 men) Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt

11th Airborne Division HQ: Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
2nd Brigade HQ: Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
425 Airborne Support Command (300 men): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
1st Senegalese Parachute Rgt (600 men): Al Qatif, SA
6th Marine Parachute Rgt (750 men): Al Qatif, SA
3rd Marine Parachute Rgt (750 men): Al Qatif, SA
1st Airborne Chasseur Rgt (750 men): Al Qatif, SA
1st Marine Parachute Rgt (700 men): Basra, Iraq
1st/35th Abn Arty Rgt (200 men): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
3rd Troop, 1st Airborne Hussar Rgt (120 men, 24 AFVs): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
2nd Company, 17th Airborne Engineer Rgt
2nd Company, 5th Combat Helicopter Rgt (12 Dauphin, 4 Ecureils, 4 Super Pumas)

9th Marine Division HQ: Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
Marine Group HQ: Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
1st Marine Infantry Rgt (500 men): Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
2nd Marine Infantry Rgt (500 men): Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
1st/11th Marine Arty Rgt (180 men): Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
1st Company, 1st Marine Tank Rgt (120 men, 13 AFVs): Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt

Middle East Aviation Group HQ: Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
15th Ftr Squadron (200 men, 16 Mirage 2000s)
25th Ftr Squadron (200 men, 16 Mirage 2000s)
292nd Attack Squadron (200 men, 16 Mirage 4000s)
161st Transport Squadron (300 men, 8 Transall C-160)
193rd Air Refuelling Squadron (300 men, 4 KC-110s)


The FAR in real life was composed of five divisions with 48,000 troops. From NATO Order of Battle 1989/V8.5

Force d'Action Rapide (FAR) - St Germain-en-Laye, France

4th Division Aeromobile - Nancy, France: 5,100 troops
1st Regiment d'Infanterie (RI): 64 Milan, 8 81mm mortars, 12 120mm mortars
1st Regt d'Helicopteres de Combat (RHC): 8 Gazelle, 24 Gazelle/HOT, 8 Gazelle/20mm, 24 Super Puma
3rd Regt d'Helicopteres de Combat (RHC): 8 Gazelle, 24 Gazelle/HOT, 8 Gazelle/20mm, 24 Super Puma
5th Regt d'Helicopteres de Combat (RHC): 8 Gazelle, 24 Gazelle/HOT, 8 Gazelle/20mm, 24 Super Puma
4th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Manoeuvre (RCS): 8 Gazelle, 8 Super Puma
9th Regiment de Soutien Aéromobile – Phalsbourg

6th Division Legere Blindee (DLB) - Nimes, France: 7400 troops ( Light Armoured Division)
1st Regiment de Spahis (RS) – Valence: 36 AMX10RC, 3 VAB, 12 VAB/HOT
1st Regiment Etrangere de Cavalerie (REC) – Orange: 36 AMX10RC, 3 VAB, 12 VAB/HOT
2nd Regt Etrangere d'Infanterie (REI): VAB Regiment
21st Regt d'Infanterie de Marine (RIMa) – Fréjus: VAB Regiment
68th Regiment d'Artillerie (RA) – La Valbonee: 24 155mm towed
43rd Regiment d’Artillerie de Marine – La Valbonne: Mobilisation only
6th Regiment Etrangere du Genie (REG)(Foreign Legion Combat Engineers)
6th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RCS)

9th Division Marine - St Malo, France: 8000 troops
Regiment d'Infanterie-Chars de Marine (RICM) – Vannes: 36 ERC-90S (to AMX-10RC, 1990), 3 VAB, 12 VAB/HOT
1st Regt d'Infanterie de Marine (RIMa) – Angoulême: 36 ERC-90S (to AMX-10RC, 1990), 3 VAB, 12 VAB/HOT
2nd Regt d'Infanterie de Marine (RIMa) – Le Mans: Marine Infantry Regiment
3rd Regt d'Infanterie de Marine (RIMa) – Vannes: Marine Infantry Regiment
11th Regiment d'Artillerie de Marine (RAMa) – La Lande d’Ouee: 24 155mm towed
2nd Regiment d’Artillerie de Marine (RAMa) – Montlhery: Mobilisation only
6th Regiment du Genie (RG)(Combat Engineers) – Angers: 2 companies
9th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RCS) – Nantes

11th Division Parachutiste - Toulouse, France: 13,500 troops
1st Regiment de Hussards Parachutists (RHP) – Tarbes: 36 ERC 90S, 12 Milan
1st Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) – Bayonne
3rd Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) – Carcasonne
6th Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) – Mont de Marsan
8th Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) – Castres
1st Regt de Chasseurs Parachutiste (RCP) – Saint-Médard-en-Jalles Camp de Souge
9th Regt de Chasseurs Parachutiste (RCP) – Pamiers
2nd Regiment Etrangere Parachutiste (REP) – Calvi
35th Regiment d'Artillerie Parachutiste (RAP) – Tarbes: 24 105mm towed
24th Regiment d’Artillerie – Saint Avold: Mobilization only
17th Regiment du Genie Parachutiste (RGP)(Airborne Combat Engineers) – Montauban
7th Regiment Parachutiste de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RPCS) – Castres
14th Regiment Parachutiste de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RPCS) – Toulouse

27th Division Alpine - Grenoble, France: 8,500 troops
4th Regiment de Chasseurs metropolitains (RCh): 36 ERC 90S, 3 VAB, 12 Jeeps w/Milan
6th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) – Varces: Alpine Infantry Battalion
7th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) – Bourg Saint Maurice: Alpine Infantry Battalion
11th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) – Barcelonnette: Alpine Infantry Battalion
13th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) – Chambéry: Alpine Infantry Battalion
27th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) – Annecy: Alpine Infantry Battalion
159th Regiment d'Infanterie Alpine (RIA) – Briancon: Alpine Infantry Battalion
93rd Regiment d'Artillerie Alpine – Varces: 24 AU50 105mm towed
75th Regiment d’Artillerie Alpine – Varces: Mobilization only
7th Battalion du Genie Alpine (BGDA) – Avignon:
27th Groupe-ment d'Helicopteres (GHL): 19 Gazelle, 11 Super Puma, 30 Gazelle/HOT
27th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RCS) – Grenoble

FAR Organic Units

17th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RCS) – Maisons-Lafitte:
28th Regiment de Transmissions – Orleans:
602nd Regiment de Circulation Routiere – Dijon:
511th Regiment du Train:

The 4th Division Aeromobile actually had 241 helicopters, including 90 Gazelle/HOT and 84 Super Puma transports. In real life I doubt that all of the FAR divisions could actually be deployed to the Middle East, as France doesn't have the logistical capacity to transport a force that size overseas. GDW may in fact have got it right with the forces it has listed in the RDF Sourcebook. Despite its size and the high quality of manpower the FAR is actually a bit lightly armed, especially in comparison to the tank heavy armies of the Middle East. The French probably sent an armoured and self-propelled artillery regiment or two from Europe. The French AMX-30 MBT was too lightly protected to go up against many modern tanks. GDW lists the French using the AMX-40 (it was never built and only intended for export), but more likely the new Leclerc tank.

The French Middle Eastern Aviation Group seems to be fantasy in the main. I don't have a list of French Air Force squadrons but only the 15th Fighter squadron seems to actually exist. Also only one prototype of the Mirage 4000 was ever built which was an F-15 class fighter/bomber, and the KC-110 must be a typo as no such aircraft exists. More likely one squadron of Rafale fighter, one of Mirage 2000D strike-fighters and one squadron of Jaguar ground attack, with some C-160 and KC-135's. Also the French naval missile cruiser Jean Bart doesn't exist, unless GDW actually mean the missile destroyer D615 Jean Bart which was commissioned in 1991.

[Olefin]

The French Middle Eastern Aviation Group seems to be fantasy in the main. I don't have a list of French Air Force squadrons but only the 15th Fighter squadron seems to actually exist. Also only one prototype of the Mirage 4000 was ever built which was an F-15 class fighter/bomber, and the KC-110 must be a typo as no such aircraft exists. More likely one squadron of Rafale fighter, one of Mirage 2000D strike-fighters and one squadron of Jaguar ground attack, with some C-160 and KC-135's. Also the French naval missile cruiser Jean Bart doesn't exist, unless GDW actually mean the missile destroyer D615 Jean Bart which was commissioned in 1991.

The French had a Jaguar squadron in Djibouti and I am assuming that they sent that to the Middle East for sure - it was their only modern attack aircraft already in the area. They did have C-160's at Djibouti and Reunion and a few helicopters as well - the detachment at Djibouti

The Jaguars were from Escadron de chasse 3/11 Corse - if I remember correctly they had 10-12 total Jaguars