Why no China?

[Olefin]

Oh I agree with you Legbreaker (look I said that and the world didnt end ) about the condition of the Chinese units anywhere near where the Soviet fronts were

And even if Chinese units survived intact in the south or central part of the country most likely many of them were garrison units - meaning that they would have been artillery heavy units with a lot of foot infantry - i.e. even if they still had any command and control left for China those divisions are not going to be ones you can move

and I will look thru my copy of the Soviet vehicle guide but you are right - there were definitely units that got moved after China got NUKED - definitely to Europe and I think the Middle East as well

[Legbreaker]

I'd be quite surprised if the southern units had much in the way of modern equipment, particularly artillery, armour and other vehicles. Much of that would have been required at the front (to get nuked a little later) and the "garrison" and training units equipped with cast offs and left overs.

[Olefin]

actually those units had a lot of artillery - but most of it was older artillery or fixed emplacements (i.e. coastal artillery, AA units, etc..) versus towed and mobile systems - so basically good garrison units - think German Army coastal defense divisions during WWII

[Legbreaker]

But weren't most of those emplacements on the Soviet border and therefore likely destroyed VERY early on.
Anything more mobile though is surely in the south with the 2nd and 3rd line units. Certainly wouldn't have done anyone any good up north where the old 37mm AT guns, etc just bounce off even old T-55's.

[Olefin]

A lot of the garrison units - i.e. coastal defense units - were still facing Taiwan - as well as providing security around Hong Kong and the like - so most likely there are still a good number of intact Chinese divisions in the south and central part of the country - but ones that basically have almost no armor or transport with artillery, mortars, etc. - but no real to move around except with draft animals or by foot

so while they provide a good source of security for whatever warlord they are answering to they really present no threat to what is left of the Soviet forces that are still occupying Manchuria and Mongolia

For the Soviets the real threat is marauders, bandits - and the morale issues they have with their own units - i.e. desertion - to where the units start to lose unit cohesion

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

For the Soviets the real threat is marauders, bandits - and the morale issues they have with their own units - i.e. desertion - to where the units start to lose unit cohesion

And no wonder either really considering they're camped out in the most heavily nuked region on the planet. My ex comes from that area, it's not the most hospitable place at the best of times. Add in radiation and the horrifically cold winters...

[Olefin]

Units originally in China but then transferred (per canon Soviet Vehicle Guide )

1st Tank Division - sent to Europe in July 1997

9th Guards Tank Division - sent to China from Europe and then brought back in 1997 (unknown date)

18th Guards Tank Division - sent to China in early 1996 and then sent back to the West in summer of 1997 to Bulgaria

27th Tank Division - sent to Far East and then back to Europe for summer 1998 offensive

34th Tank Division - sent to Far East but limited action (early 1996) then returned in summer of 1997 for Bulgarian front

31st Motorized Rifle Division - China from the start, then transferred to western Siberia to put down revolt - mid-1998

33rd Guards Motorized Rifle Division - Far East mid-1996 then sent to Europe in summer 1997 for the Bulgarian front

37th Motorized Rifle Division - Far East shortly after the war with China began then back to Leningrad after China defeated

38th Motorized Rifle Division - Far East against China (limited action) then Korea

70th Guards Motorized Rifle Division - Far East against China then back to Europe but nuked and only 100 survivors

70th Motorized Rifle Division - Far East against China, almost destroyed, 200 survivors in Tomsk

73rd Motorized Rifle Division - committed after initial invasion into China then sent to Siberia for security mid-1997

78th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to Sinkiang Western China 1996-97 and on occupation duty till mid-1998 then Siberia

FYI this is the only canon reference to the Soviets invading Sinkiang or occupying it

102nd Motorized Rifle Division - China on occupation duty 1996, then Eastern Siberia unknown date

116th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to China and almost destroyed in spring offensive 1996 - survivors withdrawn to Siberia after China collapse

118th Motorized Rifle Division - Far East division part of the drive on Peking - now in Eastern Siberia since mid-1997

128th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to Far East in mid-1996 then to Poland summer of 1998 and nuked and nearly destroyed

173rd Motorized Rifle Division - in action against China 1995-1997 then to Korea

194th Motorized Rifle Division - in action against China 1995-1997 then to Korea

342nd Motorized Rifle Division - sent to China in 1995, almost destroyed, survivors withdrawn to Western Siberia early 1998

6th Guards Air Assault Division - in China 1996 then Alaska in 1997

14th Air Assault Brigade - part of initial invasion of China sent to Austria for 1998 offensive

106th Guards Air Assault Division - part of initial invasion of China then to Poland during initial NATO offensive

203rd Air Assault - part of initial invasion of China then to Korea

63rd Naval Infantry - limited action against China then to Korea

32nd Attack Helicopter Regiment - in China when it collapsed then sent to Iran

Destroyed by the Chinese - 2 tank divisions, 12 motorized rifle divisions and 2 East German divisions

93rd Tank Division (category I) (1995 Chinese counterattack)

95th Tank Division (category II) (1995 Chinese counterattack)

47th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (survivors with the 39th GRMD in Poland) (spring offensive 1996)

68th Motorized Rifle Division (spring offensive 1996)

85th Motorized Rifle Division (1995 Chinese counterattack) (survivors incorporated into the 56th MRD)

112th Motorized Rifle Division (division cut off and lost late 1997 may be survivors - possibly destroyed by marauders/Chinese remnants?)

133rd Motorized Rifle Division - upgraded to Category I and then sent to China and lost in spring 1996 offensive

139th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to Manchuria in late 1996 and shattered almost immediately - may be survivors but no contact since 1997

146th Guards Motorized Rifle Division - destroyed late 1995 Chinese offensive by militia units

148th Motorized Rifle Division - nuked and thought to be destroyed by the Soviets in the fall of 1997 but may be survivors - unknown

160th Motorized Rifle Division - destroyed in 1995 Chinese counteroffensive

210th Motorized Rifle Division - destroyed in early 1996 at end of China 1995 counteroffensive

253rd Motorized Rifle Division - sent to China late 1996, survivors joined 5th Tank Division late 1998-early 1999

300th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to China from Mongolia after upgrade to category I, destroyed by China 1995 counteroffensive


Two East German divisions - dont remember date they were lost (1995?)

Mutinied and in China still - 4 motorized rifle divisions

101st Motorized Rifle Division (late 1998)

141st Motorized Rifle Division - sent into action spring of 1997 - mauled by Chinese in their last offensive - stopped answering orders - unknown location

153rd Motorized Rifle Division - almost destroyed in last Chinese offensive in mid-1997 and mutinied in late 1998

156th Motorized Rifle Division - assigned to anti-partisan activities in China late 1996 and mutinied in late 1997 - marched back to Siberia

[shrike6]

I figure you all are focused on 1st edition. Here's what the 2nd edition Soviet Vehicle Guide has in addition:

Bulgarian 5th Tank Group

Disbanded in the early 1990s, this unit was reformed using cadres from other Bulgarian Tank Brigades, reinforced with a battalion of motorized infantry from the 7th MRD, and sent to the Chinese Front.
In early the unit commander with drew his forces from the front and began the long march home. As of 1 July 2000 the unit is a little west of Lake Baikal
Subordinate: Soviet 17th Army
Current Location Chermkovo, USSR
Manpower 300

Polish 4th "Pomeranian" MRD

The 4th was a prewar Polish Division shipped to the Far Eastern Front in late 1995 in response for troops by the Soviet Union. After the collapse of China the division was assigned to the Soviet 5th Army, where it remains.
Subordination: Soviet 5th Army
Current Location: Manchuria
MAnpower: 1000
Tanks: 5 T-55

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by shrike6

I figure you all are focused on 1st edition.

Actually 2nd ed cut and pasted 1st ed. About 99.5% of the unit info in 2nd is exactly the same.
2nd added only a little new information and that was almost invariably in the form of new units rather than changes to previous listings.

[shrike6]

NATO Vehicle Guide 1st edition

German 29th Panzer Division/DDR 9th Panzer Division.

"The division was formed on 23 June 1996 by order of the East German government to replace one of the divisions destroyed in the Far East. It was designated 9th Panzer Division in honor of its predecessor."

German 211th Panzergrenadier Division/DDR 11th Motorized Rifle Division

"Originally part of the East German Army, the unit was formed up on 12 July 1996 as 11th Motorized Rifle Division. It was supposed to replace the original 11th MRD which had been destroyed in fighting in Northern China"

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Actually 2nd ed cut and pasted 1st ed. About 99.5% of the unit info in 2nd is exactly the same.
2nd added only a little new information and that was almost invariably in the form of new units rather than changes to previous listings.

Well, 2nd ed added info on Warsaw Pact allies otherwise true it was cut and paste with some modifications for the divergent history, probably more like 90% but anyways doesn't really matter. I have both. I bet you do too.

[Olefin]

Some information on Chinese units

A B category unit versus an A category unit would have the same unit size but very different in terms of training. Both are regular soldiers but in the case of the A units they would get the best equipment and training while the B unit would get older equipment and would receive a lower level of training in tactics (such as anti-armor or ambushes and the like)

A B category infantry unit is a motorized unit versus an A category infantry unit which are mechanized infantry units - with the corresponding differences in how they would be used in combat.

In 2005 a B unit would be issued with the type 63 APC and the Type 59 MBT and the type 81 Rifle while an A unit would get the Type 86 APC and the Type 96/99 MBT and would use the Type 95 rifle

Also an A category unit would be trained on the tactical use of helicopters where a type B unit would not be

And then below that would be garrison units that would be purely trained in security tactics and very simple infantry tactics - i.e. more for internal security than battlefield use

[Olefin]

So adding it up total Soviet effort against China

11 Tank Divisions - 4 still there, 5 transferred, 2 destroyed - one out of five divisions committed destroyed

40 Motor Rifle Divisions - 9 still there, 15 transferred, 12 destroyed, 4 mutinied after duty there - one third of the divisions committed destroyed or mutinied

So gives you an idea of the scale of the commitment they made in China - and why they had to go nuclear as they did - otherwise with what was going on in Poland they would have lost for sure by the end of 1997

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

So gives you an idea of the scale of the commitment they made in China - and why they had to go nuclear as they did - otherwise with what was going on in Poland they would have lost for sure by the end of 1997

Absolutely. Even with the USSR and it's allies as powerful as they were in the game, there's no way they could maintain that level and number of multiple operations at once any longer. They NEEDED to close down at least one major front to give them a hope of surviving even as long as until winter.
Alaska, Korea, China, Middle East, Europe (and probably numerous other minor hotspots such as Mexico) were all draining resources and manpower faster than they could be replaced. Heavily nuking China was the best bad option they had and one I think many commanders would have taken in a similar situation.
Every other front had members of Nato (usually the US as the major opponent) fighting there and it would have almost immediately escalated into a full exchange. China had nukes, but no nuke armed allies. Any retaliation from China could be counted on to be limited and relatively ineffective.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Absolutely. Even with the USSR and it's allies as powerful as they were in the game, there's no way they could maintain that level and number of multiple operations at once any longer. They NEEDED to close down at least one major front to give them a hope of surviving even as long as until winter.
Alaska, Korea, China, Middle East, Europe (and probably numerous other minor hotspots such as Mexico) were all draining resources and manpower faster than they could be replaced. Heavily nuking China was the best bad option they had and one I think many commanders would have taken in a similar situation.
Every other front had members of Nato (usually the US as the major opponent) fighting there and it would have almost immediately escalated into a full exchange. China had nukes, but no nuke armed allies. Any retaliation from China could be counted on to be limited and relatively ineffective.

I agree completely with you - look at their delivery systems that they had - basically bombers that had very little chance of penetrating Soviet air space and if they Soviets got off their shots first most likely no surviving long range missiles - a few Soviet cities in the Far East might have been within their capabilities but no way do they hit the vital areas around Moscow or Kiev or Leningrad or Baku

and the only other nuclear power in Asia is the US - which you correctly argue was only basically responding in kind - and when the Chinese got nuked hadnt been touched yet on US soil - so who is going to risk LA trying to avenge Peking?

[Legbreaker]

Another interesting point is that besides China, the only target locations nukes were used were actually within Russia's borders. The Soviets made a conscious decision to not use them within the borders of another country, not even their allies. It was the West that widened the area.
So basically there's fault on both sides. The Soviets used them first sure, but that was effectively in self defence with almost all other options exhausted.
Nato retaliated, but widened the nuked zone.

My belief is the war went nuclear due to a failure of the various intelligence agencies, or those they reported to. Either the spooks didn't pick up the warning signs that the Soviets were being pushed to the brink, or those above chose not to accept those warning signs and made the decision to keep pushing forward with the misguided idea the war would stay conventional even in the face of Soviet defeat.

[Olefin]

well face it having the German Army, of all armies, cross the Soviet border wasnt the smoothest of moves - not exactly going to bring back fond memories for the Soviets

however it was the Soviets that made the stupidest move and nuked the US - once the TDM happened there wasnt going to be any end to the war - the US and Russians previously werent going for each other's governments - but going for a decapitation strike on the US govt and military command centers pretty much ended any chance that the war was ever going to go to a negotiated end - especially when you add up how many civilians died in the "surgical strikes" in Florida and California and Texas - they basically took out a big part of the Los Angeles Basin, Philadelphia and northern and central Florida - after that the gloves were off

the fact that the US was restrained and didnt just empty their silos after that is actually pretty amazing

[Olefin]

This whole thread has really made me look at the possibility of doing something with China - even if all it is would be a basic China Vehicle Guide with basic details on their Army - lots of it would have to be invented though - there is not that much out there to really go on

[Legbreaker]

The Soviets were initially very restrained and only used tactical nukes against military targets in the west. It was Nato who escalated to theater nuclear weapons in September against "an array of industrial targets and port cities in the western Soviet Union".
The Soviets did not escalate, but retaliated.
BOTH sides had ample opportunities to de-escalate, the first earlier in July when the conventional Nato advance could have been halted at the Russian border, BUT I fully understand no commander in their right mind would want to take the pressure off an opponent and give them time to regroup.
The Soviets didn't HAVE to strike against the US, but remember they'd already suffered numerous strikes to their own cities and civilians at that point. To not strike would be to show weakness, and also allow the US to retain full industrial and economic capacity against their own already decimated infrastructure.

Stepping back you can see the chain of events which kicked off in China leading to nuclear war. There were plenty of opportunities to defuse the situation, but plenty of reasons not to do so as well.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Another interesting point is that besides China, the only target locations nukes were used were actually within Russia's borders. The Soviets made a conscious decision to not use them within the borders of another country, not even their allies. It was the West that widened the area.

I’ve always felt that was a possible explanation why Hong Kong was only attacked lightly (per the UKSG). Prior to 31 July 1997 it was still British Sovereign territory.

By the time that ceased to apply China was probably in such a state that there was no need to nuke it further (that’s assuming that the handover to the PRC actually took place at all given that by the end of July it sounds as though the PRC had effectively ceased to exist).

[Legbreaker]

A very good point there too about the handover date.
My guess is most of the work was already done by the time China was nuked, so the handover probably still happened.
However, it still makes sense for the Soviets to hold off on nuking the city until after the handover date, and possibly even until the first strikes were made against the UK itself, just to be safe.
Certainly makes sense to nuke it at some point though, it is one of the largest trading centres in Asia with good port facilities and a very important airport too. Leaving it intact, no matter who's officially (or unofficially) in possession of it would be a very big mistake.

[rcaf_777]

Thinking about doing a Group of Chinese Army Officers in the State

[RN7]

The is a listing of Chinese ground forces in the early-to-mid 1990's including relevant PLA Air Force and Navy units.


Peoples Liberation Army

2,300,000 Troops (including 1,075,000 conscripts)
0,600,000 Reserves

Organisation
7 Military Regions (including 28 Military Districts, 3 Garrison Commands)
24 Integrated Group Armies
10 Tank Divisions
84 Infantry Divisions
4 Airborne Divisions: 4 (under Air Force control)
7 Artillery Divisions
4 Air Defence Artillery Divisions
14 Independent Tank Brigades
21 Independent Artillery Brigades
28 Independent Anti-Aircraft Brigades
50 Independent Engineer Regiments
6 Rapid Deployment Force Battalions
5 Group Helicopter Battalions

* Chinese reserves add another 54 infantry divisions.
* Note Integrated Group Armies are equivalent to Western Corps (43,500 troops). Organization varies but typically includes 4 division (1 tank, 3 infantry, 1 artillery) and 1 airborne brigade.
* Note: PLA divisions were smaller than Western and Soviet divisions. A typical Chinese tank division had 9,200 troops and infantry divisions had 12,700 troops.


Deployment

1) North-East Shenyang Military Region (Heilongjiang, Jilin, Liaoning military districts)
5 Ground Army, 2 Missile Army, 19 divisions (3 tank, 15 infantry, 1 artillery)
2) North-Beijing Military Region (Beijing and Tianjin Garrison Commands, Hebei, Nei, Monggol, Shanxi military districts)
6 Ground Army, 1 Missile Army, 27 divisions (2 tank, 20 infantry, 1 Airborne, 2 artillery, 2 air defence)
3) West-Lanzhou Military Region (Gansu, Ningxia, Qinghai, Sichuan, Xinjiang, South Xinjiang military districts)
2 Ground Army, 2 Missile Army, 13 divisions (1 tank, 12 infantry)
4) South West-Chengdu Military Region (Guizhou, Sichuan, Yunnan, Xizang military districts)
2 Ground Army, 1 Missile Army, 8 divisions (7 infantry, 1 artillery)
5) South-Guangzhou Military Region (Guangdong, Guangxi, Hainan, Hubei, Hunan military districts)
2 Ground Army, 8 divisions (6 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 air defence)
6) Centre-Jinan Military Region (Henan, Shandong military districts)
4 Ground Army, 19 divisions (2 tanks, 13 infantry, 3 airborne, 1 artillery)
7) East-Nanjing Military Region (Shanghai Garrison Command, Anhui, Fujian, Jiangsu, Jiangxi, Zheijiang military districts)
3 Ground Army, 15 divisions (2 tanks, 11 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 air defence)


The PLA was huge in numbers and fielded 8,000 MBT and 1,200 light tanks. The PLA had 6,000 Type-59 MBT, the rest were Type-69, Type-79 and a few Type-80 and Type-90. The PLA had for its size relatively few mechanised armoured vehicles and self propelled artillery compared to NATO and Warsaw Pact armies. The PLA did have 14,500 towed artillery guns, 3,800 rocket artillery and 15,000 AA guns. SAM's included HN-5/5A/C and some HQ-6, all basically copies of Soviet and Western SAM. Anti-tank missiles were also basically copies of Soviet and Western systems. The PLA had about 100 helicopters, all license built from France or purchased from the US.

The PLAAF (Chinese Air Force): The PLAAF controlled 4 airborne divisions that were assigned to the PLA. The PLAAF also operated 16 Air Defence Artillery Divisions and 28 independent regiments with 16,000 air defence guns and 100 SAM units with HQ-2/2B/2J and HQ-61 SAM.

The PLAN (Chinese Navy): The PLAN had a naval infantry force of 1 brigade of 6,000 troops facing Taiwan, and also some special forces. On full mobilization the naval infantry would include a total of 8 divisions of 52 regiments (10 tank, 24 infantry and 8 artillery). Additionally the PLA had 3 infantry divisions that had an amphibious role. The PLAN Coastal Regional Defence Force also had 27,000 troops organised into 35 artillery regiments who operated CSS-C-2 anti-ship missiles and 130mm, 100mm and 85mm guns.

Para-Military Forces: Chinese paramilitary forces stood at about 12,000,000 and included the Ministry of Public Security, the People Armed Police and the Militia.

The Ministry of Public Security is the principle police and security organisation of China. At this time the Ministry of Public Security was unarmed and stood at over 1 million personnel. The People Armed Police is armed and is responsible for internal security, law enforcement and maritime protection in China as well as providing support to the PLA in wartime. The People Armed Police stood at about 750,000 personnel at this time and controlled the Border Defence Corps, a Para-military force of 1,029 border, mountain and internal defence battalions.

The largest Para-military force in China is the Militia. There were two classes of Militia. The Basic or Armed Militia was comprised of groups of men and women aged 18-30 who had served or were expected to serve in the PLA, and who received thirty to forty days of military training per year. The basic militia included naval militia which operated armed fishing trawlers and coastal defence units, as well as specialized detachments such as air defence, artillery, communications, anti-chemical, reconnaissance and engineering units. They were grouped in the Armed Militia of up to 4.3 million organized into about 75 cadre divisions and 2,000 regiments. The Ordinary Militia included men aged 18-35 who met the criteria for military service. They received some basic military training but generally were unarmed. The ordinary militia had some air defence duties and included the urban militia and a strength of 6 million. In wartime the militia would supply reserves for mobilization, provide logistical support to the PLA, and conduct guerrilla operations behind enemy lines.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that the Chinese made a bunch of changes in their Army from the mid 1980's to the mid 1990's - and not sure how much info the game designers actually had on the actual Chinese Army

And those changes FYI in the Chinese Army happened (reduction of forces, transformation of divisions into brigades, redeployment of troops, elimination of units and armies, etc..) because of the reduction of tensions with the Soviets and the fall of the Soviet Union

Thus there are possibly two Chinese Armies to look at based on the differing timelines

V1 - Cold War never ends - most likely you would have seen the mid-80's Chinese Army continue right up to the war start - i.e. the one where the Soviets are a real threat and most of their deployments of their best units are to be able to defend Beijing and Manchuria against them

V2 - Soviets are not as big a threat and you see more of the mid-90's army from our timeline where they had started to redeploy from the "Soviets are our biggest threat" to more like "time to finally take out Taiwan" that you saw and also deploying into Sinkiang after the unrest there in the early 90's

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Keep in mind that the Chinese made a bunch of changes in their Army from the mid 1980's to the mid 1990's - and not sure how much info the game designers actually had on the actual Chinese Army

And those changes FYI in the Chinese Army happened (reduction of forces, transformation of divisions into brigades, redeployment of troops, elimination of units and armies, etc..) because of the reduction of tensions with the Soviets and the fall of the Soviet Union

Thus there are possibly two Chinese Armies to look at based on the differing timelines

V1 - Cold War never ends - most likely you would have seen the mid-80's Chinese Army continue right up to the war start - i.e. the one where the Soviets are a real threat and most of their deployments of their best units are to be able to defend Beijing and Manchuria against them

V2 - Soviets are not as big a threat and you see more of the mid-90's army from our timeline where they had started to redeploy from the "Soviets are our biggest threat" to more like "time to finally take out Taiwan" that you saw and also deploying into Sinkiang after the unrest there in the early 90's

If we are playing V1 then my list above will be what the Soviets will be facing when they attack China in 1995.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that there are category A and category B divisions in that mix for V1- and also garrison divisions in that list

As stated before the big differences:

Category A - best equipment, best training - basically the mobile troops that were ready (at least in Chinese eyes) to take on the Soviets from the get go

Category B - second line equipment, standard training but not top of the line - i.e. more basic, not advanced tactics or familiarity with top of the line equipment - still regular troops but definitely not the cream of the crop

Garrison - static infantry divisions with artillery support (with some units being issued older tanks - and by older I mean very old)

example

1st Garrison Division of Lanzhou Military Region

Originally the 62nd Infantry Division the the 62nd Army Division and then reorganized in 1985 and renamed the 1st Garrison Division of Lanzhou Military Region

1st Garrison Regiment (former 184th Infantry);
2nd Garrison Regiment (former 185th Infantry);
3rd Garrison Regiment (former 186th Infantry);
Artillery Regiment.

Artillery most likely would be Type 60 122mm towed gun and Type 59-I 130mm towed gun and even perhaps the Type 59 100mm artillery pieces as well

It was disbanded in 1992 and became the Independent Infantry Regiment of Ningxia Military District. However in the V1 timeline it probably would have stayed intact as a garrison division

This might have been one of the divisions the 78th Motorized Rifle Division faced in Sinkiang

[Legbreaker]

Don't believe everything you read about the Chinese army's numbers, training or effectiveness. My ex was one of those militia. Their training consisted of 2 weeks of marching around doing civil tasks such as gardening and rubbish clean up (but mostly the marching). It happened once only in the dozen years or so they were supposed to do it.
They did however do a little rifle training - one day only with air rifles.

[Olefin]

Oh the militia suck - I agree there - basically they are good bullet absorbers and not much more than that - but the Category A and B troops are trained infantry - but definitely not up to US military standards for sure

[kalos72]

What sort of size are we talking for these divisions? 3-6k?

[Olefin]

Kalos - are you asking the size of divisions pre-war or by 2000-2001 timing?

China currently has switched from divisions to brigades so their current force structure is different from the 80's and 80's

[kalos72]

Beginning really...I know the general thought is 2000/2001 they were hammered and a fraction of prewar strength.