French nuclear target list?

[Olefin]

Has anyone ever managed to put together a French nuclear target list for either of the two versions of the timeline?

The closest I can find is this:

1st edition

Not detailed but hinted at that France was hit but limited to industrial centers and oil refineries only - i.e. France was hit the lightest along with Belgium

2nd edition went into detail and made it sound like France was in much worse shape

Specifically the write up saying Marseilles is the largest undamaged city suggests that Paris got hit for sure - but you wonder if the authors had done their research - i.e. Marseilles is the second biggest city in France - only Paris is bigger - so that really doesnt say anything about places like Toulon or Brest or Lyon

Second edition write up

Despite being neutral, France was subjected to nuclear strikes to deny its port and oil refining facilities to NATO. Damage was generally confined to coastal areas, but casualties were severe. Riots and civil confusion caused by the war and the influx of refugees forced the government to close France's borders, then occupy all territories west of the Rhine. A free-fire zone (commonly called La Zone Morte - the Dead Zone) has been established within 50km (31 miles) east of the Rhine. Officially, the border is closed to non-French citizens, but the guards are generally open to bribes. The border with Spain is closed, but often crossed by smugglers. The Union Corse (Corsican criminal underworld) dominate a thriving black market in the region. The government is increasingly repressive, but life in most areas is tolerable.

Some areas, particularly the mountains, are in open rebellion, and martial law is in effect. The government in the southern areas is corrupt and dominated by the Union Corse. Marseilles is the largest undamaged city in the country, though it is in a bad state compared to its pre-war condition. Some trade between Europe and the eastern Mediterranean passes through the city, which is entirely run by the Union Corse.

[Olefin]

Looking at the likely target list I am surprised at Marseilles coming thru intact but it may just be that the Soviets only hit so many targets in France before the French govt hit back and said either stop or we fully support NATO

Targets high on the list and thus probably hit

The La Mede Refinery in Châteauneuf-les-Martigues along with the Lavera Oil Refinery

The Normandy Refinery in Gonfreville along with the nearby port of Le Havre

The adjoining Refineries of Port Jérôme and Gravenchon that are on the Seine River

Just hitting those targets takes out over half of French refining capability

If the Soviets wanted to show the French they arent kidding around they could hit the Grandpuits Refinery - it supplies all the gas to Paris and the surrounding area and its close enough to Paris that it would shake the French govt

Given that Paris is obviously damaged the question is did the Soviets hit it with a nuke or are we talking about either a conventional attack or widespread rioting that damaged large areas of the city?

[Legbreaker]

The only semi-solid reference I can recall outside of the background history is the Australian SAS trooper in "What's Polish for G'day?" stating France and Australia were members of a sort of "brotherhood of non-irradiated nations. Of course that information is on a par with rumour, so take it with a grain of salt.

Personally, I believe there was likely at least a few warheads tossed their way, restricted to border areas where it could be claimed they were strays that missed their intended targets.

[Olefin]

Looking at the 2nd edition the French got hit pretty good - enough that the French mafia have control of the southern part of the country. Was the Australian story written before or after the 2nd edition came out?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Was the Australian story written before or after the 2nd edition came out?

Yes....
It's from Twilight encounters and I believe it was also included in the 2.0 yellow box (only thing I don't have). The chance it was written before is about equal to after. 2.0 was certainly very close to finalisation when the original was published.

[Olefin]

Twilight Encounters is version 1 timeline - so that supports the version 1 timeline where the French most likely didn’t get nuked. So that reinforces that in the V2 and V2.2 timeline they definitely got nuked as per the game timeline and description of France. Will see if I can come up with a likely list of targets based on the description from the V2.2 rules. Keep in mind it sounds definitely like a limited attack - ie this isn’t the widespread attack that the US or UK or the Soviets went thru. I suspect the French hit back and told the Soviets it ends or we join the US and the Germans and the Soviets backed down - after all they had already hit what they wanted to hit.

[Legbreaker]

Is it though?
Remember the box includes conversion rules to 2.0 and it was being written at the same time as 2.0. There's a very strong chance the writers of both were at least aware of the other's work, if not even directly collaborating.
That one statement by the trooper could easily apply to either, or both timelines.

Remember though that it's just the words of one man. It's essentially a rumour.
Probably at least partially based in fact, and as an SAS trooper they're possibly more aware of to state of the world than most soldiers of equivalent rank.

It's also quite possible the French don't want anyone to know just how badly they were hit (if at all) so they can at least maintain the illusion of strength even though internally it's chaos.

[Olefin]

Also keep in mind that the attack on the French may not have happened until the time of the follow up nuclear strikes on Britain that occurred in 1998 - i.e. just because the big nuke strikes were in 1997 doesnt mean thats when it hits France- especially if the Soviets got wind that in any way the French were thinking of supplying oil to or allowing their ports to be used by NATO

[Legbreaker]

Indeed. You've got a lot of leeway with France. Nuke or not, early or late, heavy or light. There's really no "right" answer besides what works best for you.

[Olefin]

have a feeling that the French hit back just as hard - remember reading something - not sure if it was here or somewhere else - that had the French firing a few nukes that took out one of the Soviet major ports with the message that it either stops now or they join NATO

[Legbreaker]

It's certainly not in the books, but it does seem likely Nato wouldn't be dropping any on France. Not only were they allies until only a few months before, France is behind them and totally out of reach or possible use by the Pact.
It's possible however a Nato warhead or three hit French territory when Italy was advancing over the Alps, but that still wouldn't be very deep inside France's border.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It's certainly not in the books, but it does seem likely Nato wouldn't be dropping any on France. Not only were they allies until only a few months before, France is behind them and totally out of reach or possible use by the Pact.
It's possible however a Nato warhead or three hit French territory when Italy was advancing over the Alps, but that still wouldn't be very deep inside France's border.

Fallout from NATO strikes on Italy I could see for sure affecting France - depending on the wind and other conditions - especially against the northern Italian industrial base. Also keep in mind that if the Dutch got nuked you have a similar concern although it would be more a problem for Belgium.

[lordroel]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Looking at the 2nd edition the French got hit pretty good - enough that the French mafia have control of the southern part of the country. Was the Australian story written before or after the 2nd edition came out?

And still they manged to take control of Belgium and occupy parts of the Netherlands and West Germany.

[Olefin]

Per the story the Belgians joined freely with the French - have a feeling they didnt want to be out there on a limb all by themselves - and remember that a lot of Belgians have a historic tie to France. And the areas they took over in the Netherlands and Germany pretty much were against formations that had taken serious losses already - i.e. if the Dutch and Germans had pre-war formations and air power there is a good chance the French and Belgians would have taken a very very bloody nose

And considering the size of the French and Belgian formations they had to have taken some good sized losses during the invasion of both areas - none of the French formations in those areas is anywhere near pre-war manpower or equipment

[lordroel]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Per the story the Belgians joined freely with the French - have a feeling they didnt want to be out there on a limb all by themselves - and remember that a lot of Belgians have a historic tie to France. And the areas they took over in the Netherlands and Germany pretty much were against formations that had taken serious losses already - i.e. if the Dutch and Germans had pre-war formations and air power there is a good chance the French and Belgians would have taken a very very bloody nose

And considering the size of the French and Belgian formations they had to have taken some good sized losses during the invasion of both areas - none of the French formations in those areas is anywhere near pre-war manpower or equipment

Still think the Belgians joining the French freely is a little bit to much, the country is divided into a French and Dutch speaking part, never would the Dutch speaking part become a member of a French speaking alliance.

[Legbreaker]

And there's plenty of Belgians who align themselves more with Germany than France.

[Olefin]

I have always said if there is one thing that needs to be rewritten and admit they made an error in the game is Belgium whole heartedly joining France in an invasion of the Netherlands and Germany. There is no way that the Flemish area of Belgium joins up for that. You would have had a lot of Flemish soldiers saying screw this and joining the Netherlands in their fight against the French.

I.e. they need to show Belgian units breaking up, some soldiers either refusing orders, deserting, shooting their officers and mutinying, you name it as part of the timeline. But what you get instead is Belgium in lockstep with the French invading and taking over a large part of the Netherlands and apparently the whole Belgian Army saying sure why not.

I suspect there would have been a hell of a lot of insubordination at the very least - and possibly some flat out conflict where Flemish soldiers or units joined the other side.

[lordroel]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I have always said if there is one thing that needs to be rewritten and admit they made an error in the game is Belgium whole heartedly joining France in an invasion of the Netherlands and Germany. There is no way that the Flemish area of Belgium joins up for that. You would have had a lot of Flemish soldiers saying screw this and joining the Netherlands in their fight against the French.

I.e. they need to show Belgian units breaking up, some soldiers either refusing orders, deserting, shooting their officers and mutinying, you name it as part of the timeline. But what you get instead is Belgium in lockstep with the French invading and taking over a large part of the Netherlands and apparently the whole Belgian Army saying sure why not.

I suspect there would have been a hell of a lot of insubordination at the very least - and possibly some flat out conflict where Flemish soldiers or units joined the other side.

There would be a civil war in Belgium most likely.

[Legbreaker]

French propaganda could have been intense and effective leading up to it, also Belgians may as a whole have acknowledged that without joining France, they'd have been left hanging by themselves. Could have been initially presented as an alliance which only after it was all over was revealed to really be an occupation.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by lordroel

There would be a civil war in Belgium most likely.

Definitely - I have talked to people who I work with who are in Belgium to get their opinion- several of whom were in the Belgian Army in the 1990's - and to a man they said that there is no way that the Flemish soldiers - who by the way make up close to half the army - would have joined any invasion of the Netherlands no matter what they got ordered.

And any French officer who came into their barracks to order them to do it would have had a very short and bullet riddled lifespan along with anyone who came with him.

And just looking at the strength of the Belgian Units shows you that there was a lot of defections

Per Canon - 1st Belgian Division - 4000 men and NO Tanks - they had 111 Leopard tanks - they lost them all? The 16th Belgian - another 111 Leopard tanks - and by 2000 all gone?

And only 8600 men in the two divisions by 2000? For forces that per canon only fought the Netherlands units and ones that were vastly understrength when the French invaded? That tells you right there that a lot of men defected or sabotaged a lot of the Belgian Army's tanks.

[lordroel]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Definitely - I have talked to people who I work with who are in Belgium to get their opinion- several of whom were in the Belgian Army in the 1990's - and to a man they said that there is no way that the Flemish soldiers - who by the way make up close to half the army - would have joined any invasion of the Netherlands no matter what they got ordered.

And any French officer who came into their barracks to order them to do it would have had a very short and bullet riddled lifespan along with anyone who came with him.

And just looking at the strength of the Belgian Units shows you that there was a lot of defections

Per Canon - 1st Belgian Division - 4000 men and NO Tanks - they had 111 Leopard tanks - they lost them all? The 16th Belgian - another 111 Leopard tanks - and by 2000 all gone?

And only 8600 men in the two divisions by 2000? For forces that per canon only fought the Netherlands units and ones that were vastly understrength when the French invaded? That tells you right there that a lot of men defected or sabotaged a lot of the Belgian Army's tanks.

So a Free Flemish Army could have been created in un-occupied Netherlands.