The Hovercraft in T2K

[kato13]

Raellus 06-05-2008, 05:40 PM I have a specific question in just a bit but it's occured to me that in the two years I've been hanging out here, I've never seen a thread dedicated to hovercraft. So, this is it!


Here's my question: what [v2.2] skill would be used to pilot a hovercraft? It's not a "ground vehicle", nor is it a "small boat". It's got a propellor but it's not an aircraft. I can't find any specific references to hovercraft in the rulebook except in the vehicle hit charts (where it instructs the ref to use the tracked vehicle hit chart instead of the boat chart).


Anyway, I threw an encounter with a KvP-92 hovercraft into my Pirates... campaign to spice things up a bit. I know they're make-believe (at least the afore mentioned model) but I think they're kind of cool and I wanted to give my players an unexpected adversary.


Please feel free to discuss any other hovercraft related issues here. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the subject.

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pmulcahy 06-05-2008, 08:24 PM When I was still GMing, I made one up.

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weswood 06-05-2008, 08:39 PM I just found it, it's a seperate skill with agility as the attribute.


I finally broke down and took my downloaded 2.2version pdf file to the printer yesterday. It was way cheaper than I thought to have the whole thing printed. Just over $10 for everything except the front & back cover.

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gstitz 06-05-2008, 09:37 PM IRL, the USN LCAC Craftmaster Class is 117 days


The course goals are:


To provide the Landing Craft, Air Cushion (LCAC) craftmaster with the knowledge and skills required to operate the LCAC in normal, emergency, and degraded modes over water and land in all conditions, including ship's well deck entry/exit and be certifiable as an LCAC craftmaster.


http://www.ewtgpac.navy.mil/internet/catalog/chap6.htm


EWTGPAC is "Expeditionary Warfare Training Group, Pacific"

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Targan 06-05-2008, 09:52 PM The appropriate skill in the 'Rules System That Shall Not Speak Its Name' is Ground Effect Vehicle (Skill Base = Dexterity + Eyesight + Intelligence / 3), (Master Level = Skill Base x 2, x3 if using a mastery slot).


Wanna see the complete skill list we're using in my campaign right now? I'll attach it as a .zip. Its an Excel file, one sheet for combat skills and one for all the other kinds of skills.

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General Pain 06-06-2008, 01:39 AM hmm...seems I have neglected the hoovercrafts...


only 2 on the site


http://thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/DOX/Hovercraft/

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copeab 06-06-2008, 01:47 AM I have a specific question in just a bit but it's occured to me that in the two years I've been hanging out here, I've never seen a thread dedicated to hovercraft.


I can think of a few reasons for that.


(1) Hovercraft are gas hogs, comparable to tanks but not nearly as survivable in combat.


(2) Even before the war, they were rare. This also means spare parts are going to be hard to find (harder than with more conventional vehicles) and trained operators are going to be downright rare.


(3) The terrain in Europe (especially the middle of Poland) is downright unfavorable to hovercraft operations.


Unless the campaign is set on an island or a costal area, I don't think hovercraft would be that useful.


Brandon

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Targan 06-06-2008, 04:40 AM (2) Even before the war, they were rare. This also means spare parts are going to be hard to find (harder than with more conventional vehicles) and trained operators are going to be downright rare.Those big ro-ro hovercraft that were used as English Channel ferries would be excellent for moving large loads over water/ice/flat terrain (although admittedly at great cost in fuel) and could provide some spare parts and trained personnel.


(3) The terrain in Europe (especially the middle of Poland) is downright unfavorable to hovercraft operations.Isn't NW Poland the "Land of a Thousand Lakes"? Hovers would make good riverine transports too, say on the Vistula.


Unless the campaign is set on an island or a costal area, I don't think hovercraft would be that useful.Could be good for the Arctic part of the module "Boomer", for instance to cross the empty ice cap wastes quickly with heaps of personnel, supplies and a few vehicles. Provides a platform for long range comms, radar and some heavy weapons too. Could be used to draw the WarPac security detachment away from the boomer so the USS City of Corpus Christi could surface through the ice near the boomer without having to face the whole enemy force.


Just some thoughts.

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Raellus 06-07-2008, 03:40 PM I know hovercraft are rare- that was part of the allure. I figured that, although my players have probably played quite a few sessions of T2K before, they've probably never run across a hovercraft. I'm trying to keep it fresh, ya know?


Also, large swaths of the region through which the Vistula River flows are actually pretty good terrain for a hovercraft.


The HC in my campaign was originally used by Russian Naval Infantry along the Baltic coast. It somehow found it's way to Lublin- probably for repairs- where it was assigned to river patrol duty by the Front HQ there. At some point, it was captured by the rogue American SF-led Independent Army of Tarnobrzeg and used by them in their efforts to set up a little fiefdom in central Poland. When my players double crossed the IPAT "Hetman", major Florek, he sent the HC after them.


IRL, I know hovercraft are used almost exclusively as transports, mostly in ship to shore amphibious ops. A combat hovercraft is/was a true rarity. First, it would be a terrible heavy gun platform. The "combat" hovercraft used in Vietnam mounted nothing heavier than a .50 cal or a 40mm AGL. A 30mm canon- like the one mounted on the HC encountered in my campaign- would cause the HC to skim around like a puck in an air hockey game. (With this in mind, I assigned a penalty to hit and, fortunately for my players, it did not cause any casualties before it was chased off).

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Hangfire7 06-07-2008, 04:01 PM I like the idea of having heavy weapons on a hovercraft and firing them causing them to spin around like the hockey puck as you said. That'd be kinda cool, well if you players were unaware of that little problem.


I can see them loading it up with tons of heavy weapons, maybe a rapira captured from a tank, or even an entire tank turret mounted, or a 122mm howitzer used in the direct fire role, or a 105 or 75 pack howitzer again used in the direct fire role. LOL, imagine two two on either side, 1 forward and 1 amid ships, or even a second set aft giving a total of three guns per side, and the players give a broadside. Then imagine the drift they would have, as well as tossing a spin, and then have the PCs have to manuver into a firing position once more.


I think it would actualy be cool. Kinda like having the PCs all on one of those spinner rides they have at carnivals. Sending everyone and everything flying all about, people grabbing for something to hang on to.




I know hovercraft are rare- that was part of the allure. I figured that, although my players have probably played quite a few sessions of T2K before, they've probably never run across a hovercraft. I'm trying to keep it fresh, ya know?


Also, large swaths of the region through which the Vistula River flows are actually pretty good terrain for a hovercraft.


The HC in my campaign was originally used by Russian Naval Infantry along the Baltic coast. It somehow found it's way to Lublin- probably for repairs- where it was assigned to river patrol duty by the Front HQ there. At some point, it was captured by the rogue American SF-led Independent Army of Tarnobrzeg and used by them in their efforts to set up a little fiefdom in central Poland. When my players double crossed the IPAT "Hetman", major Florek, he sent the HC after them.


IRL, I know hovercraft are used almost exclusively as transports, mostly in ship to shore amphibious ops. A combat hovercraft is/was a true rarity. First, it would be a terrible heavy gun platform. The "combat" hovercraft used in Vietnam mounted nothing heavier than a .50 cal or a 40mm AGL. A 30mm canon- like the one mounted on the HC encountered in my campaign- would cause the HC to skim around like a puck in an air hockey game. (With this in mind, I assigned a penalty to hit and, fortunately for my players, it did not cause any casualties before it was chased off).

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pmulcahy 06-07-2008, 06:31 PM The other day, after reading this thread, I was thinking about hovercraft and the "hockey puck" problem. And then I thought about the AC-130 and its 105mm howitzer -- something you'd think would throw the AC-130 into a simultaneous rolling and flat spin. Have there been any experiments with a recoil absorption system like that on a hovercraft?

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chico20854 06-07-2008, 07:24 PM Us guys in Washington have gone ahead and reactivated the 172nd Infantry Bde (IRL absorbed into 6th ID) as a separate brigade in Alaska, equipped with the Hovercraft contained in the V2 US vehicle Guide. They never leave Alaska but do manage to cause some serious problem for the Soviet 51st Army coming over from Kamchakta.

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copeab 06-07-2008, 08:34 PM The other day, after reading this thread, I was thinking about hovercraft and the "hockey puck" problem. And then I thought about the AC-130 and its 105mm howitzer -- something you'd think would throw the AC-130 into a simultaneous rolling and flat spin. Have there been any experiments with a recoil absorption system like that on a hovercraft?


Or you could mount the cannon to only fire forward, like the WWII assault guns. Firing the gun might decelerate the hovercraft but shouldn't cause it to spin.


(Actually, if the hovercraft is heavy enough, I'm not even sure an autocannon would make the hovercraft spin, but might make it drift opposite the direction it is firing -- vector math and all that)


Brandon

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Raellus 06-07-2008, 10:55 PM OK, so here's another question.


Could a HC with off-line engines be successfully towed over water?


I'm thinking no. Without the engines to inflate the skirt and give it some lift, it would act just like any other heavy metallic object. Sure it might float for a while, but, due to the props in the bottom of the hull, it's probably not entirely watertight down there. It would eventually start to ship water and this would cause it to sink.


Yes? No? Maybe?


My players want to try it and I need to know what's plausible/possible before too long.

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kato13 06-07-2008, 11:38 PM I think the hovercraft becomes a very slow boat/barge then. It would be far too risky not to have a watertight hull.


I would assume the lifting fans draw air from outside the hull so seeping water would not cause the hovercraft to lose buoyancy.



edit


http://www.infovisual.info/05/060_en.html


This seems to indicate that the lifting fan intake is well outside the main cabin.

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Hangfire7 06-08-2008, 01:20 AM From the ones I have seen operating off the coast driving past Pendelton, and from an episode of Mail Call <hey, is that show still on?> They didn't have any other inflation beyond the skirt, however, from the "gunny" talking with the Warrant Officer who ran it they said the vessel could operate with a couple pannels damaged.


I am wondering since they are basicaly just a platform atop the aircushion pannels they would start to sink almost instantly especialy if they had a load of heavy cargo. Then again, I wonder if they have an inflatable skirt or rin or even sections to keep them from sinking should they loose power? It would be prudent and they are not to difficuilt to rig or manage.


AH!!!! Redundancy! That is one of the differences between Navy/Marine Aircraft and Army/Air Force vessels. Redundant engines. And I seem to recall them talking about something like that on the program, if anyone has it you may want to refference it since I am going off of what I saw over a year ago.

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kato13 06-08-2008, 07:03 PM Regarding hovercraft buoyancy, I found this about the LCAC.


"A peripheral skirt system holds the cushion of air and connects to the LCAC’s buoyancy box, which is designed to keep the craft afloat even if it goes “off-cushion” and the skirt is deflated. The buoyancy box receives a majority of the attention due to the effects of the corrosive ocean environment and vibration related cracks."


http://www.millerwelds.com/education.../story148.html


not sure if that applies to Russian hovercraft though as they don't seem to have a huge regard to the safety of their men.

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Headquarters 06-09-2008, 12:29 AM I know hovercraft are rare- that was part of the allure. I figured that, although my players have probably played quite a few sessions of T2K before, they've probably never run across a hovercraft. I'm trying to keep it fresh, ya know?


Also, large swaths of the region through which the Vistula River flows are actually pretty good terrain for a hovercraft.


The HC in my campaign was originally used by Russian Naval Infantry along the Baltic coast. It somehow found it's way to Lublin- probably for repairs- where it was assigned to river patrol duty by the Front HQ there. At some point, it was captured by the rogue American SF-led Independent Army of Tarnobrzeg and used by them in their efforts to set up a little fiefdom in central Poland. When my players double crossed the IPAT "Hetman", major Florek, he sent the HC after them.


IRL, I know hovercraft are used almost exclusively as transports, mostly in ship to shore amphibious ops. A combat hovercraft is/was a true rarity. First, it would be a terrible heavy gun platform. The "combat" hovercraft used in Vietnam mounted nothing heavier than a .50 cal or a 40mm AGL. A 30mm canon- like the one mounted on the HC encountered in my campaign- would cause the HC to skim around like a puck in an air hockey game. (With this in mind, I assigned a penalty to hit and, fortunately for my players, it did not cause any casualties before it was chased off).


there are quite a few civillian types about though..started googeling after this thread and found several Russian ,Chinese and Western manufacturers

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Headquarters 06-09-2008, 12:36 AM Regarding hovercraft buoyancy, I found this about the LCAC.


"A peripheral skirt system holds the cushion of air and connects to the LCAC’s buoyancy box, which is designed to keep the craft afloat even if it goes “off-cushion” and the skirt is deflated. The buoyancy box receives a majority of the attention due to the effects of the corrosive ocean environment and vibration related cracks."


http://www.millerwelds.com/education.../story148.html


not sure if that applies to Russian hovercraft though as they don't seem to have a huge regard to the safety of their men.



It would seem that the former Soviets have the most advanced hovercraft in existence in service -the Bora guided missile HC , and the Zubr shore assault craft .Both of these make the LCAC look like a barge .


Question remains though - what kind of buoyancy can you get with a full cargo and the HC loosing the whole aircushion ?


I am sure most are built to float with no cushion ,even carrying crew ,fuel and so on .But in the case of a couple of MBTs onboard this might be a different propsition ...Anyways - these are cool stuff to add to a campaign -from the vicked looking Zubr to the small one and to seaters that can zip around with a LMG.

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General Pain 06-09-2008, 05:04 AM I was wondering guys...


Would a HC get a penalty or not when moving over rugged terrain ?

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Targan 06-09-2008, 05:52 AM Would a HC get a penalty or not when moving over rugged terrain ?Yeah, the penalty would be that HC's aren't capable of moving over rugged terrain, not if the obstacles are higher than a meter or so.

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General Pain 06-09-2008, 06:04 AM Yeah, the penalty would be that HC's aren't capable of moving over rugged terrain, not if the obstacles are higher than a meter or so.


I was thinking more in the line of


HC a moving 100 meters over a fotball field (FEX)

HC b moving 100 meters over a rugged, but under 1m obstacles terrain


I knew the part if it's to big obstacles your stuck and all....

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Targan 06-09-2008, 06:33 AM Maybe its not so much that HCs are physically slowed by rugged terrain but they risk suffering damage if they move at more than a safe speed over rugged terrain?

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Headquarters 06-09-2008, 07:44 AM can clear 6ft obstacles no problem

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