Internment Camps

[natehale1971]

I have always felt that the refugee colums would be heading SOUTH into mexico, instead of North back in to the US. All things considered, mexico wasn't hit as hard as the US by the nuclear exchanges. The average mexican wouldn't have been as effected by a nuclear exchange as much as the average american who probly lost EVERYTHING they had when it occured.

I just keep seeing large groups of American refugees heading south, going to those Mexican resort areas tht had not been nuked and trying to take them over as a piece of the 'world that was' and trying to live as close to what they lost as they could.

[Webstral]

Mexico might not have received the same megatonnage as the US, but Mexico is in tough shape before the Exchange. This is why some ten percent of Mexico's nationals are in the United States. The v1 Referee's Guide explicitly states that the oil-producing and industrial assets of neutral nations are destroyed to prevent the enemy from using them. This must apply to Mexico. The loss of petroleum refining and the nation's electricity grid will have the same effects in Mexico as in the US.

We take for granted in the US attitudes that are seldom found outside the West. We trust that while some government officials may be corrupt in the days following the TDM, in general the state does its best to distribute food and respond to the needs of the nation as a whole. Mexico simply isn't the same. The mentality that has resulted in their current plight has been in place for five hundred years. The theocratic, oligarchic, racist nature of the society isn't going to get better under the shade of a few mushroom clouds. Mind, I'm not saying Mexicans are bad people. I'm saying that Mother Church and the wealthy, who tend to be fair-skinned relative to the rest of the Mexican population, run the show to suit their own interests. That's why the US has an illegal immigration issue with our southern neighbor.

Following the nuclear attack on Mexico, transporatation falls apart. Food distribution falls apart. Although Mexico has a higher rural population than the US, modern Mexico is an urban society nonetheless. Combine food and energy shortages with the pre-existing mindset of the elites, and you have a situation that is ripe for abuses of every imaginable type. There will be Mexicans fleeing their homeland because for certain groups life may be uncertain in the US, but it's downright untenable at home.

There may be Americans who try to head for the Mexican resorts. They are going to find that the natives have moved in already.

Webstral

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Mexico might not have received the same megatonnage as the US, but Mexico is in tough shape before the Exchange. This is why some ten percent of Mexico's nationals are in the United States. The v1 Referee's Guide explicitly states that the oil-producing and industrial assets of neutral nations are destroyed to prevent the enemy from using them. This must apply to Mexico. The loss of petroleum refining and the nation's electricity grid will have the same effects in Mexico as in the US.

We take for granted in the US attitudes that are seldom found outside the West. We trust that while some government officials may be corrupt in the days following the TDM, in general the state does its best to distribute food and respond to the needs of the nation as a whole. Mexico simply isn't the same. The mentality that has resulted in their current plight has been in place for five hundred years. The theocratic, oligarchic, racist nature of the society isn't going to get better under the shade of a few mushroom clouds. Mind, I'm not saying Mexicans are bad people. I'm saying that Mother Church and the wealthy, who tend to be fair-skinned relative to the rest of the Mexican population, run the show to suit their own interests. That's why the US has an illegal immigration issue with our southern neighbor.

Following the nuclear attack on Mexico, transporatation falls apart. Food distribution falls apart. Although Mexico has a higher rural population than the US, modern Mexico is an urban society nonetheless. Combine food and energy shortages with the pre-existing mindset of the elites, and you have a situation that is ripe for abuses of every imaginable type. There will be Mexicans fleeing their homeland because for certain groups life may be uncertain in the US, but it's downright untenable at home.

There may be Americans who try to head for the Mexican resorts. They are going to find that the natives have moved in already.

Webstral

I had thought of that as well... All the problems that we had here in North Carolina thanks to the fact our social services have been totally overwhelmed by the amount of illegals on the roles. My family and I spent almost 7 months on the streets as homeless, trying to find a place to live and help in getting into a program to get us into a Progam that could get us off the streets. With all the crap we had to fight against just to find a home, Emma had said it was proof that she would never do what she's done now. We went from living on the streets to living in a nice house in a year thanks to the hard work and fighting the VA disability people to give me the disablity they had promised me when i got out of the navy (still fighting to get the 80% they had promised, currently at 60%... and it only took ten years).

[Cdnwolf]

People forget that the internment camps originated during WWI and came to full use during WWII.

I was at Fort Henry in Kingston, Ontario and never knew that it was used as an internment camp during WWI for UKRAINIAN people!

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

People forget that the internment camps originated during WWI and came to full use during WWII.

The camps during the Boer War don't count?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by copeab

The camps during the Boer War don't count?

Excellent point. Anyone here seen the fantastic Australian film Breaker Morant? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaker_Morant_%28film%29 ). That wiki article quotes a great speech given by the military defence counsel representing Morant, I urge you to read it. The events and characters in the film were real, if slightly altered for dramatic purposes.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Targan

Excellent point. Anyone here seen the fantastic Australian film Breaker Morant? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaker_Morant_%28film%29 ). That wiki article quotes a great speech given by the military defence counsel representing Morant, I urge you to read it. The events and characters in the film were real, if slightly altered for dramatic purposes.

Ah, very good movie and it has been far too long since I have seen it.

[RobbyK]

Originally Posted by jester

Yes the 100th and 442nd Combat Teams fought in Italy, France and Germany with some smaller groups fighting in the Pacific. And the 442nd had more awards and decorations than any other in US history as well as almost a 200% casualty rate.

And the Supreme Court Violated the Constitution when it came to the internment. Frenzy, hysteria and oportunism.

However, the internment was temporary. After about 1943 the internees were given the option to relocated to the Midwest and East Coast, however a bitter pill was they also had to sign a loyalty oath which many saw and I agree, insulting. There is alot of misinformation on both sides about that issue. And we did intern Germans and Italians as well.

One thing to remember, in the 1920s they had a influx of immigrants from Asia, which had gone back to the late 19th century. So, we the US passed what was called "Yellow Laws" which were geared to prevent immigration and assimilation into society by denying immigrants the ability to gain citizenship. Thus, they could easily be deemed "enemy aliens" which gave a grounds for internment, just as we did with Gemran and Italian aliens, since they were citizens of hostile powers.

I would also like to add, that many of the Japanese-Americans, whom were interred, often had their businesses confiscated from them. After the war was over, they didn't get so much as an apology until around 1993 (with a very meager check in the mail). Almost none of the former business or home titles were returned, having been liquidated to "fund" the interment camps.

Many of the camps were further administered by a "corporate" entity, where some goods were made in the camps and sold on market. I don't think due-process of law was ever considered, when such properties were seized.

The State of Colorado has a very detailed historical archive on the camp located here, and even lists some of the opposition by local religious organizations and the (then) elected governor. In fact, Colorado's governor-- at the time-- was one of the very few voices speaking against the federal government's policies.

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Targan

Excellent point. Anyone here seen the fantastic Australian film Breaker Morant? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaker_Morant_%28film%29 ). That wiki article quotes a great speech given by the military defence counsel representing Morant, I urge you to read it. The events and characters in the film were real, if slightly altered for dramatic purposes.

Guys on Lightfighter.net have been working on getting a Rule 303 morale patch done for a bit now, happily on the waiting list for one.

[Targan]

I watched Breaker Morant again today. Morant's case portrayed in the film is an excellent example (one of thousands of examples) of the British military's past use of colonial troops as scapegoats, cannon fodder and worse. Sadly the Australian government didn't learn well enough from Morant's case and allowed the British to misuse and abuse Australian troops for another 50 years. Nowdays (thankfully) Australian troops are commanded by Australians and are tried under Australian military law.

The events portrayed in Breaker Morant are actually relevant today in terms of the War on Terror, as the Boer War was a counter-insurgency war fought between British regular troops with slightly irregular colonial and volunteer units under British command, and guerilla Boer commando forces (it has been suggested that the Boer War saw the first use of the term "commando").

[Canadian Army]

I recently found this this info, I think this makes my point:

PROFUNC (1950–1983), which stands for "PROminent FUNCtionaries of the communist party", was a Government of Canada third rail top secret plan to identify and intern Canadian communists and crypto-communists during a national security state of emergency, such as a Third World War crisis with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) and Red China.

For info can be found here:
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2010-2011/en...ate/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROFUNC

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I think depending on where you went, after the TDM you'd probably see pro-communist types being summarily executed.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I think depending on where you went, after the TDM you'd probably see pro-communist types being summarily executed.

I agree completely. In fact, I'd expect to see liquidation of EPW as a rule, rather than the exception.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Webstral

I'd expect to see liquidation of EPW as a rule, rather than the exception.

Agreed. EPWs chew (literally) through tonnes of vital resources which would be in short supply. For this reason alone, the EPWs aren't likely to survive long post nuke.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Webstral

I agree completely. In fact, I'd expect to see liquidation of EPW as a rule, rather than the exception.

Webstral

I agree, I just meant ComSymp groups in the States, Canada and the UK.

Especially in the States.

[95th Rifleman]

I don't know why thisis even a debate, it's a dead surety that internment camps would be introduced. What is GITMO if it's not an internment camp? This current camp is proof positive of how America would operate in WW3.

Germany may be hesitant due to the cultural guilt over the holocaust and concentration camps but Russia would have no qualms about it, nor would her allies.

Not sure about the UK because we where going through (and are still stuck in) a very liberal phase during the 90's. However when things star to come unstuck I can see BNP, NF and EDL members being arrested because they will be a big threat to internal security.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

I don't know why thisis even a debate, it's a dead surety that internment camps would be introduced. What is GITMO if it's not an internment camp? This current camp is proof positive of how America would operate in WW3.

Germany may be hesitant due to the cultural guilt over the holocaust and concentration camps but Russia would have no qualms about it, nor would her allies.

Not sure about the UK because we where going through (and are still stuck in) a very liberal phase during the 90's. However when things star to come unstuck I can see BNP, NF and EDL members being arrested because they will be a big threat to internal security.

Its actually more of a Prisoner of war camp. If it were a true internment camp then there would be allot more of them there and with their families. And there would be more camps, as in this case if you would compare it to the historical camps all of the Muslims would have been rounded up and placed in camps. As it is those that are there have be linked to activities so as to be held for Intel or to keep them from committing further acts or supporting of those acts.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Cpl. Kalkwarf

Its actually more of a Prisoner of war camp. If it were a true internment camp then there would be allot more of them there and with their families. And there would be more camps, as in this case if you would compare it to the historical camps all of the Muslims would have been rounded up and placed in camps. As it is those that are there have be linked to activities so as to be held for Intel or to keep them from committing further acts or supporting of those acts.

Oh really?

There are documented cases of individuals sent there for NO reason, some where shopped to the coalition to fill quotas from informants. The place is an AQ recruitment ground as people sent to GITMO for no reason are soon indoctrinated and end up hating america.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

However when things star to come unstuck I can see BNP, NF and EDL members being arrested because they will be a big threat to internal security.

Agreed. When the proverbial hits the fan I think extremists from both ends of the political spectrum could expect to find themselves being detained at Her Majesty's pleasure in such choice locations as Dartmoor and the Isle of Wight. I'm sure I read somewhere that the Isle of Man was also cited as a possible location of an internment camp (although that might have been during World War 2). How long people would stay interned is possibly more debatable...I could see numbers of people being initially rounded up in a sort of knee jerk reaction only to be released later.

My alternative Survivor's Guide has a character based on George Galloway - when I finally get round to doing a bio for him I intend to have him interned for a period of time early in the war before his status as an MP gets him released.

[bobcat]

as for camps i know this sources comes off as kinda crazy but im sure someone can put it into a game.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread60684/pg1

[Sanjuro]

My alternative Survivor's Guide has a character based on George Galloway - when I finally get round to doing a bio for him I intend to have him interned for a period of time early in the war before his status as an MP gets him released.

I can't find a reference online, but IIRC there was an MP imprisoned throughout WW2 as a potential traitor- if memory serves he was referred to as "The Scottish Prisoner", but when I google the term all I find is a historical novel by an author I've never heard of. I think the Tower of London was the prison used. Can anyone else find a reference?

[Canadian Army]

Captain Archibald Henry Maule Ramsay (May 4, 1894 – March 11, 1955) was a British Army officer who later went into politics as a Scottish Unionist Member of Parliament (MP). From the late 1930s he developed increasingly strident antisemitic views. In 1940 his involvement with a suspected spy at the United States embassy led to his internment under Defence Regulation 18B; it allowed for the internment of people suspected of being Nazi sympathisers, the only British MP to suffer this fate. He was imprison in HM Prison Brixton, not the Tower of London.

[Sanjuro]

Thanks CanArmy, that's the one! Gorgeous George could have his old cell at Brixton then...

[.45cultist]

The internment, along with rationing, power brownouts, etc., would certainly convey a sense of TSHTF to the average citizen of a western nation. Possibly leading further desperation in the early years or any "False Twilight" era scenario where the PC's seek refuge ala the movie "Panic in the Year Zero".

[Brother in Arms]

thanks for mentioning "PANIC IN THE YEAR ZERO!"
one of my favorite early apocalyptic films! Makes me miss having a browning A5
BIA

[rcaf_777]

For those of you who don’t know here is the EPW Chain in the US/NATO System. POW transport is usually done with “Back Haul transport” i.e. vehicles that are returning to depots, supply units ect after dropping off supplies.

EPW Chain

Capture
Unit Holding Area
Brigade Holding Area
Division Holding Area
Corps Holding Area
Theater Internment Facilities

EPW Process

At capture persons are search and any weapons, ammunition and documents of intelligence value are removed from the EPW. Once the EPW reach the Brigade holding area they will placed under the control of a Military Police Guard Company. It is her that first screening takes place, while the EPW will separated base rank, sex and branch of service, they would not had a detailed search or had their possessions inventoried. At the division and corps level they will screened by medical staff and by Intelligence and PSYOP units. The last and final destination will be one of several Theater Internment Facilities.

Theater Internment Facilities

These camps would be broken down along ethnic make-up (See Below) so as to maximize the Psy-Ops effort for recruitment as informants or double agents/insurgents. These facilities will far to the rear of the fighting possible in Western Germany along its border with other NATO nations or in the UK. These camps would also have liaison officers from non-military organizations such as the CIA, NSA, Army Counterintelligence, and CID ect. Most of the High Value EPW would most likely be transported back to CONUS for torture ….I mean processing.

Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center

Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center conducts follow-on exploitation of POWs. POWs are screened by the interrogation facilities and those of further intelligence potential are identified and forwarded to the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center for follow-on interrogation and debriefing in support of higher requirements. Besides POWs, the Interrogation and Debriefing Center may also interrogate civilian detainees, refugees, and other non-prisoner sources. They also debrief captured or detained US personnel released or escaped from the Soviets. They also coordinate the exploitation of captured equipment with the Captured Material Exploitation Center, and documents with the Document Exploitation Center, the Document Exploitation Center will also translate any captured documents

Here what I have for camps

USSR Camps

Russian
Ukrainian
Belarusian
Estonian
Lithuania
Latvian
Moldavian
Kazakhs
Georgian
Uzbeks
Tajiks
Yagnobi
Uzbeks
Kyrgyz
Turkmen
Tatars
Arabic
Azerbaijan
Armenians

Warsaw Pact Nations

Albanians
Bulgarians
Czechs
Slovaks
Hungarians
Polish
Romanians

Non Warsaw Pact

Mongolia
Serb
Croatian
Cuban

Special Status Camps (Retained Personnel and Other Detainees

Displaced Civilians
Sympatric Germans (Former East German Military) (German Run Only)
French Citizens (Held until repatriated to France by IRCC)

High Value Camps

GRU
KGB
General Staff Officers
Communist Party Officials
Pilots/Air Crew
Naval Officers

Special Military Police Units

Branch National Prisoner of War Information Center (NPWIC)

Location: Washington D.C.

Purpose: Obtain and store information concerning POW, Civilian Internees and Retained Personnel, and their confiscated personal property. Information will be collected and stored on each POW, Civilian Internees, and RP captured and detained by NATO. This includes those POW, Retained Personnel, who were captured by the United States but are in custody of other powers and those who have been released or repatriated. POW, Civilian Internees and Retained Personnel cannot be forced to reveal any information however they are required to provide their name, rank, serial number and date of birth. The Geneva Convention requires the NPWIC to collect and store the following information for POW and Retained Personnel:

(1) Complete name.
(2) Internment Serial Number
(3) Rank.
(4) Serial number.
(5) Date of birth.
(6) City of birth.
(7) Country of birth.
(8) Name and address of next of kin.
(9) Date of capture.
(10) Place of capture.
(11) Capturing unit.
(12) Circumstances of capture.
(13) Location of confiscated personal property.
(14) Nationality.
(15) General statement of health.
(16) Nation in whose armed services the individual is serving.
(17) Name and address of a person to be notified of the individual’s capture.
(18) Address to which correspondence may be sent.
(19) Certificates of death or duly authenticated lists of the dead.
(20) Information showing the exact location of war graves together with particulars of the dead.
(21) Notification of capture.
(22) List of person all articles of value not restored upon repatriation.

Branch Prisoner of War Information Center (PWIC)

Location: Bremerhaven Germany

Purpose: The Branch NPWIC functions as the field operations agency for the NPWIC. It is the central agency responsible to maintain information on all POW, Civilian Internees and Retained Personnel and their personal property within the AOR

Military Police Guard Companies

Location: Various POW Camps

Purpose: Used as Camp Guards and Staff (USAR or ANG)

Military Police Escort Companies

Location: Most Army Divisions

Purpose: Responsible for screening and escort POW to camp or to the Theater Interrogation Center

Military Police Camp Quick Reaction Unit

Location: Various POW Camps

Purpose: Used for riot situations in a POW Camp

[ChalkLine]

Excellent post!
Something I've always wondered about