4th ed T2K

[Olefin]

I am hoping the new game will be quite a success. They are still open to having new V1 and V2.2 stuff released as well as long as its pdf's and I have been talking to them too about working with them on new releases for V4 or modifying what I have published to take it from V2.2 canon to V4 canon (but most likely modified to fit their version of the timeline).

It is great to see that the timeline will be one that we will be mostly familiar with (with some changes of course). Of course the real proof will be in the mechanics of the V4 edition which we will all have to see what they will be like once its finally released.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Targan

Due to the system they're using, I have zero interest in the new edition for me personally.

And that's perfectly fine. You are not required to like it. There are no edition police ready to break down your door and take away your Harnmaster conversion.

I still refuse to have anything to do with Shadowrun post-3e, or Vampire 5e, or L5R 5e, because the older editions work fine for my purposes and the newer ones have gone in directions that are not to my tastes. For that matter, I'm probably never going to touch the Storypath system that Onyx Path has bolted onto the Trinity Continuum reboot, despite my own involvement with the Aeon line. But I also recognize that I am not the target market for everything, and I am glad that those properties are still making money and bringing together active fan communities.

It would be healthy, I think, to apply the same logic to Free League's T2k, as you are doing. Those groups who like it? They're going to be looking for more material. Some of them will find the old 1e modules, which will lead them to the earlier editions. Heck, some of them will probably find Paul's site and buy PDF or print-on-demand copies of the 2.2 rules so they can play with all the equipment he has statted.

- C.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Having not actually played with any of those systems enough to find the edges of coherence, I can't provide detailed analysis as to their suitability for T2k. Generally speaking, though, I will note that with the exception of the Old School Renaissance movement, I am seeing current game design trends going for a lot more fast play over rigorous simulations. I don't think this is a reaction to the stereotype of younger gamers having short attention spans or expecting to be spoon-fed material (and seriously, guys, why not just complain about Millennials killing station wagons and fax machines while you're at it?). Rather, I believe it's an acknowledgement that the core market for tabletop RPGs is middle-aged adults whose work and family responsibilities don't leave them the time for rigorous prep, whose gaming time is rare and precious, and who want the mechanics to not bog down the progression of the story when they do get to play. So while I am skeptical about whether Free League's house system will have the right tone for Twilight: 2000, I embrace the intent and will give them the benefit of the doubt.

That's a good point re target market. I hadn't considered that simplified rule sets could be targeted just as much towards busy middle aged folks as at the low-attention-span younger crowd. That makes a lot of sense. I, for one, don't have hours to devote to game prep and rules parsing. Simple can easily be made more complex. In my experience, it's more difficult to do the reverse.

And I agree wholeheartedly re your points about diversity and representation. The more the better. Just because there might be an image of a trans warrior, for example, in the game art doesn't mean you have to play one. That people have a problem with minority representation in gaming in 2020 makes me sad.

Despite the surge in popularity of D&D recently, tabletop RPG'ing is still a pretty geeky subculture. Being as many "geeks" weren't necessarily the most popular kids growing up, it's surprising how intolerant and exlusionary some gamers can be of the other. I hope that we are seeing a sea change now.

[Olefin]

Twilight 2000 has never been a game that had an issue with minority representation - look at the original art that was on the boxed set and the original modules - blacks, whites, Latinos and women who were obviously armored and infantry members. Considering the time period when it was released the game has always been about a full representation of the ethnicities, genders, and races that made up a typical NATO unit of wartorn 2000.

Heck look at the entry under Body Combat Damage - Bobbi Lee kicking a guy in the head and breaking his neck - and Bobbi Lee is a woman - and this in a game that was released in 1984.

Thus the 4th edition embracing that is a continuation of what the game has always been about - i.e. you can play or be anyone as part of a campaign.

[Raellus]

I'm really digging the art.

https://mailchi.mp/b66279b6b260/alie...fYtvXz9n3zoUB4

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Interesting to see that Free League has a forum devoted to T2k but more so for some of the comments.
It appears that the single voice of dislike of 4th edition that has been seen here has been, shall we say, exaggerated, into a "group of old guard wishing for 4th editions downfall".

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

It appears that the single voice of dislike of 4th edition that has been seen here has been, shall we say, exaggerated, into a "group of old guard wishing for 4th editions downfall".

How can there be an informed dislike of something no one has yet seen? I think the pre-judging of a yet-to-be-seen product, based on principle, or inferences based on Free League's existing product, or whatever, probably comes across to a lot of folks as a "group of old guard wishing for 4th edition's downfall".

I'm a little cynical, a little skeptical, but I'm going to give it a chance before I make up my mind one way or the other.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I find myself actually getting a little bit more excited for the new edition as the weeks roll by. As mentioned elsewhere, the Year Zero rules are not my particular cup of tea but I am very interested in seeing what other material Free League might produce for the Twilight setting.
So while I wouldn't be inclined to use the rules, I'd have no particular objection to buying the books and supporting the new edition.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Interesting to see that Free League has a forum devoted to T2k but more so for some of the comments.
It appears that the single voice of dislike of 4th edition that has been seen here has been, shall we say, exaggerated, into a "group of old guard wishing for 4th editions downfall".

Also interesting to see that in the update Rae linked, they pointed to the Facebook group but not to this forum.

Originally Posted by Raellus

How can there be an informed dislike of something no one has yet seen?

"All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again."

- C.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

There's a few facebook sites for T2k, some more welcoming than others, which one did they choose?

As for not making any connection to this specific site... well... that's a decision that's open to interpretation and ripe for misinterpretation. Considering the number of published official articles, books etc. etc. that have come from certain members of this forum, I'd like to think that not mentioning this forum was just a simple oversight.

[Tegyrius]

Looks like https://www.facebook.com/groups/twilight2k/, which tells me nothing - I'm not on FB. Is that a group that's known to the community?

- C.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I'm not a facebook user myself, I find its format pretty much useless for finding topics of interest. However I do know that some people from this forum have had problems with one specific facebook T2k group.
It essentially boiled down to "there will be no opinions other than my own", the person in charge declaring something along the lines of "T2k should be done this way and this way only, you do not have the right to disagree with me, so do things my way or you get hit with the ban hammer".

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I'm not a facebook user myself, I find its format pretty much useless for finding topics of interest. However I do know that some people from this forum have had problems with one specific facebook T2k group.
It essentially boiled down to "there will be no opinions other than my own", the person in charge declaring something along the lines of "T2k should be done this way and this way only, you do not have the right to disagree with me, so do things my way or you get hit with the ban hammer".

And the group they've linked to is that particular group....

[Raellus]

Let's be fair. The other T2k FB page isn't exactly a-political. Based on some of the stuff that was posted there, it's not terribly surprising that a legitimate company might not want to be publicly associated with it.

I hope that's not the reason Free League didn't name-drop this forum. I think we do a really good job keeping politics out of the discussion here.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

And the group they've linked to is that particular group....

I had a suspicion it was but I couldn't be sure.
My assumption that it was that specific FB group was based on the amount of fluff material in the comments. A lot of "this is cool", "here's something interesting" type posts and plenty of links to things to be used for gaming inspiration but no solid body of info on, well, anything much at all and no in-depth discussions of anything, as far as I could tell from a quick scan over the posts.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Let's be fair. The other T2k FB page isn't exactly a-political.

It's not intended to be. It's intended to not cow down to PC and minority demands. Members may say what they like without risk of censorship (beyond the usual politeness society as a whole expects), as long as it's tied back to T2K in some way.
The group linked to is run by a self confessed communist who actively shuts down anyone with a differing opinion. Definitely not a place for open and free discussion.

[Cypher]

Totally agree Olefin, this has been one of the most refreshing (admittedly small) rpg communities in this regard, and like you said, a diverse cast has always been represented in T2k (like the v2 cover, for example). It's one of the things that (subconsciously I think) made it stand out for me all those years ago as opposed to classic d&d, for example.

Some gaming communities have seen a vocal minority responding extremely negatively to the idea of a cast of characters with more diversity - see the reaction to Games Workshop's recent novel series announcement with a black space marine on the cover :eyeroll:

Back to 4th Ed, I quite like the art direction we've seen so far, it's got a reasonable amount of grit.

As I've said over on the FL forums, my big hope is for a set of settlement building and expanding rules, with appropriate tweaks for different biomes around the world as the setting expands.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Now Tegyrius* will know better than me so if wants to correct me, no problem, but I'm pretty sure 3rd Ed. had rules for scavenging materials and building various structures. I have a vague recollection of it because at the time I thought it was similar (in a good way) to the same rules in the Aftermath RPG.
They may be suitable for converting to 4th Ed. perhaps?

* and any of the other forum members who play 3rd Ed.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It's not intended to be. It's intended to not cow down to PC and minority demands. Members may say what they like without risk of censorship (beyond the usual politeness society as a whole expects), as long as it's tied back to T2K in some way.
The group linked to is run by a self confessed communist who actively shuts down anyone with a differing opinion. Definitely not a place for open and free discussion.

I couldn't give a shit that she's a communist. I find myself eye-rolling at quite a few of her pronouncements. But on the plus side, she's driven away quite a few bigoted wankers from her page, and I find that pleasing to me.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

I couldn't give a shit that she's a communist. I find myself eye-rolling at quite a few of her pronouncements. But on the plus side, she's driven away quite a few bigoted wankers from her page, and I find that pleasing to me.

Others may see it differently, but personally the greatest bigotry I've seen in that group is from them.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Others may see it differently, but personally the greatest bigotry I've seen in that group is from them.

Well no-one is forcing you to interact with that page. No downside that I can see.

[sellanraa]

Just chiming in to say I'm still cautiously optimistic and hope it brings in a new group of players interested in the setting. Digging the new art too

[Olefin]

Well at least she let me back on when I published the fanzine and pointed out how unfair it was to kick off a canon writer and one who was trying to get material from other writers for more of the fanzine. And so far it’s been ok being back on there - got in contact with Joe Thomas for instance and he is open to more material for the 3rd volume of the fanzine.

And the Facebook group I moderate definitely is as apolitical as it can be. I pointed that out recently and pointedly - as long as it’s Twilight 2000 related all discussion and viewpoints are welcome. Which is a big difference from the other FB page that literally kicked people off for having conservative viewpoints on their personal FB pages even if they never mentioned it on the T2K FB page. Which doesn’t say we haven’t had a few rough spots of our own.

It’s one reason so many have come to our FB page. And I always mention this forum as a place to go as well and that Paul’s page is a great source of info.

One thing I am happy about is that the 4th edition writers are very open to new material for the current editions being published either at drivethrurpg thru Marc or on their own forum they will be establishing. Ie they are saying that now that 4th edition is out that you can still publish new work on the earlier editions if you wish.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Targan

I couldn't give a shit that she's a communist. I find myself eye-rolling at quite a few of her pronouncements. But on the plus side, she's driven away quite a few bigoted wankers from her page, and I find that pleasing to me.

well the number of people who have been driven away by her is considerable - almost all of them have joined our FB page - and they are definitely not bigoted wankers from what I am seeing - they have made our FB page a very going concern with actual free dialogue where you dont have to worry about every utterance being politically correct or getting banned

but again we keep it to T2K - thats why I recently left the main FB Babylon 5 page - it was turning into a discussion on current politics instead of what it was supposed to be about - thats why I am glad the 4th edition is sticking to the old timeline in the main - i.e. with luck it wont get itself mired in today's politics and cancel culture in any way since those didnt exist back in 1995-96

[Olefin]

I am interested by the way to see if they will keep New America - it was a focal point of V1 but not really mentioned that much in V2.2 - almost as if the writers began to realize that it really didnt make sense to have some vague organized conspiracy movement like that when they started on the second edition

Be interesting to see how they handle it or if instead they may have various separatist organizations spring up throughout the world like the German one mentioned in Going Home

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

well the number of people who have been driven away by her is considerable - almost all of them have joined our FB page - and they are definitely not bigoted wankers from what I am seeing - they have made our FB page a very going concern with actual free dialogue where you dont have to worry about every utterance being politically correct or getting banned

During the height of the BLM protests in the wake of the George Floyd killing, someone on the the alternative FB T2k fan page posted a meme of a kneeling British soldier firing an SLR with the caption, "This is how you take a knee."

If that's the kind of "a-political free speech" that the FB GP page welcomes, then again, I can see why Free League is staying away. At the very least, that post and the lack of admin response to said drove this contributor away.

Back to T2k, though, I think New America is the bad guy du jour for 2020. Back in the 1980s, it might have seemed like something out of left field, but with the proliferation of anti-gov't and alt-right (read: white supremacist) militias in the U.S. nowadays, New America seems more realistic than ever. If it isn't featured in v4, it might be because it hits too close to home.

[sellanraa]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Back in the 1980s, it might have seemed like something out of left field, but with the proliferation of anti-gov't and alt-right (read: white supremacist) militias in the U.S. nowadays, New America seems more realistic than ever. If it isn't featured in v4, it might be because it hits too close to home.

I've never been super interested in the US/'back home' side of T2K, but I hope they lean into this. This has always been just below the surface in the US, so grappling with that content within the structure of a game could be really useful and meaningful.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

During the height of the BLM protests in the wake of the George Floyd killing, someone on the the alternative FB T2k fan page posted a meme of a kneeling British soldier firing an SLR with the caption, "This is how you take a knee."

If that's the kind of "a-political free speech" that the FB GP page welcomes, then again, I can see why Free League is staying away. At the very least, that post and the lack of admin response to said drove this contributor away.

Back to T2k, though, I think New America is the bad guy du jour for 2020. Back in the 1980s, it might have seemed like something out of left field, but with the proliferation of anti-gov't and alt-right (read: white supremacist) militias in the U.S. nowadays, New America seems more realistic than ever. If it isn't featured in v4, it might be because it hits too close to home.

Actually that post is gone - and both of us know who posted it - cough cough Legbreaker cough cough - and that led to the direct "its either about T2K or the post is gone" edict - so come back if you feel like it - have been making sure I am on there more and that the moderators are more engaged

Actually I think if anything an organized New America needs to be gone - i.e. there is no way that there will be a single anti-govt organization that does what NA does - for one those groups tend to not be ones that cooperate with each other - now several different groups here and there - some pro-left, some pro-right, some criminal gangs, some just good old fashioned "screw the govt I aint paying taxes or sending my food anywhere but here" groups - makes a lot more sense

Think more the World War Z situation (from the book not the movie) - they mentioned multiple breakaways here and there - none of them were coordinated but they were major pains in the butt to getting the country back together (there were mentions to a criminal gang in Chicago and a breakaway group in South Dakota that required tanks and Bradleys to put them down)

so you have a leftist group here, a rightist group there, organized criminal gangs here (i.e. think NYC Armies of the Night situation in Manhattan) but with little coordination between them

and frankly the whole New America philosophy was complete BS - I have never ever heard anything like that here in the US preached by any rightist or for that matter leftist group

[Olefin]

Also I hope they are smart enough to not slavishly say they need to obey the Twilight 2300AD future - especially considering its not GDW anymore controlled.

Things like leaving Mexico occupying a big part of the Southwest and ignoring the simple fact that a lot of the area they occupied is dependent on water from the north - i.e. how they end up staying there with no water supplies at all is not logical. I could see possibly them occupying areas like San Diego or possibly southern AZ or Texas because the water situation is different - but LA as a thriving metropolis when almost all their water comes from sources under US control (and the US hates the Mexican occupation) - nope.

So with luck they can fix some of the obvious issues of the old editions since they wont have that whole "tied to the timeline of 2300AD" that GDW had.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Actually that post is gone - and both of us know who posted it - cough cough Legbreaker cough cough - and that led to the direct "its either about T2K or the post is gone" edict - so come back if you feel like it - have been making sure I am on there more and that the moderators are more engaged

Thanks for removing the offending post. I didn't want to name names.

Originally Posted by Olefin

and frankly the whole New America philosophy was complete BS - I have never ever heard anything like that here in the US preached by any rightist or for that matter leftist group

Unfortunately, that's not true. Both Richard Spenser (one time leader/spokesperson of the Alt-right movement) and Jared Taylor (founder of American Renaissance) call for a "White Homeland" within the borders of what is currently the U.S.A. Both are pals with former KKK leader David Duke. Neither are shy about any of this either. That's just two, relatively "moderate", white supremacists representing fairly large groups. There are lots of smaller, more extreme white supremacist groups (Atomwaffen Division, for example) out there as well. Have you heard about Accelerationists? They want to try to trigger a race war that will lead to a breakdown of the American state after which they can form their dream of a white homeland. All it takes is one charismatic figurehead to bring all of these groups together, either by force of personality or just force (like the SS destroying the SA) and you've got yourself a New America.

If you're interested in the topic, you might want to watch Alt-right: Day of Rage on Netflix. It examines both the Alt-right and Antifa movements and profiles a couple of its leaders (two Alt-right, one Antifa). It definitely leans left, but it gives the right ample voice. If you weren't aware of the Alt-right's complete platform, this doc will learn you.