British Army 1990's What might have been...

[Louied]

Toward the end of the 1980's the Army/MOD were developing many concepts and ideas to strengthen the UK's military capacity both in BAOR and for MHD (Military Home Defence). I will attempt on this thread to briefly highlight concepts and plans I have discovered in my research and how IRL would affect a T2K British military. I will start with BAOR tonight....stay tuned.

[Louied]

BAOR

The BAOR emerged from the Wide Horizon/Task Force Era in 1982 (think Pentomic Structure) with a new organization and a new concept of operations. Under Bagnall the BAOR was transformed, by 1989 the key points were:
1) NORTHAG would be fought as an Army Group, formations would be used in whatever Corps sector was needed, ie if the Belgians needed additional tanks a German or British Armd Bde would reinforce it.
2) 1 BR Corps would fight with 1 & 4 Armd Divs in the FEBA between the IGB and the Weser. 3 Armd Div would be a counterstroke force for the Corps or NORTHAG. 2 Inf Div would guard the Corps Rear Area, it also provide troops (24 Airmobile or 15 Inf Bde) to reinforce the FEBA.

The Defence of the Corps area was specifically referred to, in numerous documents, as "The Goodwood Defence" ie Saxon equipped Inf and TA Inf would hold Key terrain or key urban areas (the Parachute Regt Group was intended to hold Hildesheim) with literally almost every MILAN FP in the Army. Meanwhile the Armd Bdes would fight a battle of movement. The object was to attrit the 1st echelon down to the point that a counterattack by several, in-theatre, NORTHAG Divs would shatter it and the 2nd Echelon entering the battle (reinforced by III U.S. Corps if it had made it over. Several apparently, from what I am told, several field exercises had to be called early because the simulated counterattack had taken formations over the exercises IGB!

Now for T2k purposes.......BAOR throughout the 1980's was short of men AND 155mm ammo. Though prospects for equipment were excellent, Challenger 2 coming on line and the complete rollout of Warrior, MLRS, and AS-90 was to be complete in 1994-95, ammo was still a problem and manpower was forecasted to take a dip in the 1990's (Manning and Recruitment in the Lean Years of the Nineties...The MARILYN Report addressed this and tried to find ways to mitigate it). The war in China would take care of the ammo problems, IMHO, as the backstory provides us with (much like now in the Ukraine) ramping up production and delivery of Western military hardware to China to bleed the Soviets. The manpower problems can be addressed with what actually happened IRL, the demographic trough expected in the UK did not really happen due to immigration from Eastern Europe after the fall of the Wall/Soviet Union. I think we can postulate that the Soviet crackdown in 1989 that resulted in the Cold War continuing saw a flood of refugees to the West before order was restored to the Iron Curtain. We can also tap into the almost limitless supply of Gurkhas, IRL several Bns were reinforced by Gurkha Coys to make up strength.

Every Commander of BAOR/1 Br Corps lamented that they needed an additional Armd Bde and or an Inf Bde. Prior to 19 Inf Bde being assigned to 4 Armd Div it had a mission to hold the Water Sandwich, the land to the South of Hannover and to the west of Hildesheim, in order for 7 Armd Bde to refurbish after the Covering Force Battle and to prevent Hannover from being attacked from the South.
to be continued.......

[Ewan]

A really good and interesting read and looking forward to more.

[chico20854]

Thanks for this effort! I'm looking forward to more!

[Raellus]

Interesting stuff, Louied. Keep it coming.

I'm curious about one particular line:

Originally Posted by Louied

We can also tap into the almost limitless supply of Gurkhas, IRL several Bns were reinforced by Gurkha Coys to make up strength.

Although I'm a huge Gurkha fan (thanks, Pops!), and would love a reason to encounter more of them in T2k Europe, I don't see them as an infinite (or even particularly abundant) military manpower pool. Can you explain/justify that bit about Gurkha's being a "limitless supply"?

-

[Louied]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Interesting stuff, Louied. Keep it coming.

I'm curious about one particular line:



Although I'm a huge Gurkha fan (thanks, Pops!), and would love a reason to encounter more of them in T2k Europe, I don't see them as an infinite (or even particularly abundant) military manpower pool. Can you explain/justify that bit about Gurkha's being a "limitless supply"?

-

First off I would like to apologize to everyone, I was half falling asleep typing my entry last night and I realized there are alot of typos and I feel I could of described things better.....sometimes I hit a wall at night in my old age....I will clean it up.

Now, as for the Gurkhas, I was going to do a separate entry for them, however to quickly answer your Raellus's question:

- I was slightly exaggerating to make a point

- Gurkha Bns, IRL, were always larger than regular British Bns. They had four full Rifle Coys besides the HQ & Sp Coys, establishment was 927 Offrs & ORs

-between 1989 and 2002 Gurkha Selection attracted, annually, anywhere between 25,000- 32,000 prospects who appeared at the Gurkha Depot in Nepal. Usually only 1% of that total was selected to be part of the British Army Gurkhas in peacetime. In a build up to war/wartime I think we can say that a larger percentage would have been inducted.

I will be back tonight with more BAOR, and eventually Gurkhas.

[Rainbow Six]

Louie, thanks for sharing this.

Trying to come up with a workable T2K orbat for the British Army has always been a challenge in my experience and often ends up being a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul, particularly if one tries to pay lipservice to the mess that is the canon British Army order of battle (or at least Regular Army order of battle).

I do have some reservations about your suggestion to boost numbers with Gurkhas and Eastern European immigrants. I guess I don't see the latter providing the numbers required to make good any shortfalls. In the case of the former I completely agree that there would be a steady stream of potential recruits available but I see large scale recruitment of additional Gurkhas being a potential political issue - there's always been the argument that Gurkhas are mercenaries (for the record they're not. Period) and the larger the numbers the stronger I think that narrative becomes. Unless you're talking about only raising Gurkha incremental Companies to back fill British Battalions so the same numbers are recruited but they're more spread out so not so noticeable...

Another potential solution is incremental companies drawn from areas where recruitment was strong - there's a passage in (I think) Sir Richard Dannatt's autobiography where he discusses how during his time with the Green Howards they put an emphasis on recruiting to the point where they were the most overstrength Battalion in the entire Army so 'loaned out' a Company to another Battalion. if that could be replicated Army wide (possibly with an increase in salary / benefits to make an Army career more attractive) that could go some way to resolving manpower issues (if it's not Dannatt's book it's Mike Jackson's).

Of course, all of these solutions come at a cost, which brings us back to the political aspect and is why I don't see any major efforts to do anything about lack of manpower until we're almost at the eve of War (possibly the start of the Sino - Soviet War could be the catalyst, in the same way that the Ukraine War prompted Germany to increase defence spending).

Another solution is attempts to achieve peace in Northern Ireland earlier (bearing in mind the equivalent of a Division of Infantry were usually in NI at any given point in time) but that gets into a much bigger picture.

I can't wait for the home defence part...that's one circle that I could never really square.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Louied

-between 1989 and 2002 Gurkha Selection attracted, annually, anywhere between 25,000- 32,000 prospects who appeared at the Gurkha Depot in Nepal. Usually only 1% of that total was selected to be part of the British Army Gurkhas in peacetime. In a build up to war/wartime I think we can say that a larger percentage would have been inducted.

Wow. I wasn't aware that the number of potential recruits was so large. Thanks for that.

I wonder if increasing recruitment in the run up to war would in some ways "water down" the quality, or at least elite reputation, of Gurkha formations in the British Army. I imagine training would need to be abbreviated somewhat. I also wonder if the war in China would somehow delay or disrupt the pipeline.

As for E. Europeans, I can see NATO implementing a system similar to that developed by the Allies in WW2. Exiles from Poland, Norway, the Netherlands, et al were organized into "national" formations, equipped by the Brits or Americans, and fought under British divisional (and/or above) command- probably the most famous example being the 1st Independent Parachute Brigade (Poland).

This thread presents some ideas for how to incorporate foreign troops into NATO armies. See Canadian Army's Msg #17, in particular.

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread....foreign+legion


-

[Louied]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Louie, thanks for sharing this.

Trying to come up with a workable T2K orbat for the British Army has always been a challenge in my experience and often ends up being a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul, particularly if one tries to pay lip service to the mess that is the canon British Army order of battle (or at least Regular Army order of battle).

I agree, but I can't fault the developers, I have almost every book from the 1980's and a fair few U.S. Army/Rand/CIA papers that had anything to do with the British Military of the time....none get it exactly correct. I didn't realize this until I started buying Regimental Journals, they gave me clues that I used to start FOI requests. Between documents from Kew
and the FOI answers I have discovered a whole new level of information.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I do have some reservations about your suggestion to boost numbers with Gurkhas and Eastern European immigrants. I guess I don't see the latter providing the numbers required to make good any shortfalls. In the case of the former I completely agree that there would be a steady stream of potential recruits available but I see large scale recruitment of additional Gurkhas being a potential political issue - there's always been the argument that Gurkhas are mercenaries (for the record they're not. Period) and the larger the numbers the stronger I think that narrative becomes. Unless you're talking about only raising Gurkha incremental Companies to back fill British Battalions so the same numbers are recruited but they're more spread out so not so noticeable...

Rainbow, I'm not suggesting wholescale recruitment of Gurkhas, but according to SGTTUK, when the Sino-Soviet War started in August 1995 and the Army went on full alert, I can see the return of all the 2nd Bns (which would give us eight), perhaps a Para Bn or Coy, and full Engr, Logs, & Signal Regts/Sqns. Additionally perhaps an artillery regt. Basically all this had existed prior to 1969 and the artillery regt was planned but the Malayan Emergency put it into abeyance.

I am thinking along the lines of some Bns possibly getting Gurkha Incremental Coys.

As for the Eastern Europeans, I was just trying to point out that IRL the Demographic Trough that was expected did not occur because of this immigration. Though it did not occur I don't think it would have boosted numbers in any meaningful way. For T2K purposes I would say that it just let the Army soldier on without having to make any cuts.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Another potential solution is incremental companies drawn from areas where recruitment was strong - there's a passage in (I think) Sir Richard Dannatt's autobiography where he discusses how during his time with the Green Howards they put an emphasis on recruiting to the point where they were the most overstrength Battalion in the entire Army so 'loaned out' a Company to another Battalion. if that could be replicated Army wide (possibly with an increase in salary / benefits to make an Army career more attractive) that could go some way to resolving manpower issues (if it's not Dannatt's book it's Mike Jackson's).

Yes, the Green Howards put so much effort into recruitment (each Regt had a Recruiting Team, even though evrryone was trained at The King's Div Depot) that they were able to form an additional (fourth) Rifle Coy in 1990/91. I agree, if replicated Army wide Regts such as the Queen's, which was in a parlous state even though it had three Bns, could be rectified.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Of course, all of these solutions come at a cost, which brings us back to the political aspect and is why I don't see any major efforts to do anything about lack of manpower until we're almost at the eve of War (possibly the start of the Sino - Soviet War could be the catalyst, in the same way that the Ukraine War prompted Germany to increase defence spending).

I agree, assume that during the August-October 1995 alert the UKCICC looks at what they need and begins to implement modest changes before November 1996.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Another solution is attempts to achieve peace in Northern Ireland earlier (bearing in mind the equivalent of a Division of Infantry were usually in NI at any given point in time) but that gets into a much bigger picture.

I see NI being the same as it was IRL

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I can't wait for the home defence part...that's one circle that I could never really square.

Slowly working my way there.

[Louied]

BAOR PART II

So starting from my IRL ORBAT:

https://www.orbat85.nl/documents/BAOR-July-1989.pdf

(I'll be updating this soon and will most the newest version)

The alert period, August-October 1995, would focus the minds of the UKCICC and The Cabinet. With the Soviets starting to mobilize, albeit for China, and ramp up production, gone would be advantage NATO would have in receiving advance warning of any Soviet moves. I can foresee the following:

1) a ninth Armd Bde being added to BAOR, it was a wish that was expressed many times throughout the 80's. Personally I envisioned the Guards Bns (two) and Household Cav regt in BAOR being consolidated (there is a document at Kew titled "Reformation of a Guards Bde in BAOR" however this document is being held from release due to, as stated, "correspondence with members of the Royal Family"). Now to make up numbers, the loss of an Armd Regt and two Armd Inf Bns from their parent Bdes. I took the Armd Regt in the UK that was split between Bovington/Catterick that assisted in Training and made it a fully fledged Armd Regt (its TTW role was providing the ADR, however I just reformed 5th RTR to take over the role). OR the second Armd Regt in 22 Armd Bde could have been used. This Bde had four Bns because it's TAOR was in front of the Hildesheim Canal (the Water Sandwich was on the west bank), with the redeployment, IRL of 19 Inf Bde, 22 Armd Bde was reinforced with an additional Armd Regt. The two Inf Bns can be found from UKLFs, either from the two JTP 362 Bns (see my doc, both were equipped with SAXON and had a TTW role of LOC duties. When released there are indications they would have been used in the Water Sandwich). OR Inf Bns which were in the MHD role (I'll get back to my thought on this when I touch on the MHD discussion)

2) 19th Inf Bde returns to its former role, defending the Water Sandwich.

3) The Parachute Regt Group, the three TA Para Bns, is finally designated 16 Para Bde (IRL the only reason that it didn't form into a BDE was lack of money....it was thought that forming a TA Bde would not be funded so the idea was to gradually add logistic and other support and keep it "hidden" from the accountants!!!

4) For the same reason, money, 15 & 49 Bdes in 2 Inf Div controlled ten TA Inf Bns. 29 Engr Bde would take some under control in wartime, but this was ad hoc. I can see, just like the PRG, and additional TA Inf Bde being formed as another controlling HQ.

As for equipment, with production be ramped up for China and using WMR, you can easily equip two more Armd Inf Bns and there should be the following by 1996:

3x Regts of CR2 (delivery beginning in 1992/93. Based on planned peacetime production and delivery, 65 a year until 96/97 then it would be 70 a year until completion in 99/00)
6x Regts of CR1 (one regts worth pulled into WMR)
6X Regts of CH
(The notoriously unreliable L60 engine replaced by an MTU Diesel engine linked to a Renk auto gear. IRL one Chieftain was so equipped and was the most powerful and fastest Chieftain in the fleet!).

AS-90 would be fully deployed with the 6x Regts initially slated (179 ordered, with an Option for 50 more IRL). I do see production being ramped up in 1995/96 (peacetime peak production was 48 a year)

To be continued......

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Louied

Rainbow, I'm not suggesting wholescale recruitment of Gurkhas, but according to SGTTUK, when the Sino-Soviet War started in August 1995 and the Army went on full alert, I can see the return of all the 2nd Bns (which would give us eight), perhaps a Para Bn or Coy, and full Engr, Logs, & Signal Regts/Sqns. Additionally perhaps an artillery regt. Basically all this had existed prior to 1969 and the artillery regt was planned but the Malayan Emergency put it into abeyance.

I am thinking along the lines of some Bns possibly getting Gurkha Incremental Coys.

That sounds feasible. 2nd King Edward VII’s had a 2nd Battalion until 1992. Arguably if someone put the brakes on that (not impossible - amalgamations didn’t always happen IRL and in T2K V1 any reductions after 1989 are debatable) then you’re only talking about raising three extra Infantry Battalions plus the other arms and beefing up existing units is more under the radar than raising new ones (British Battalions getting incremental Companies also has the benefit of being under the radar)

I also agree that NI would stay as it was IRL (I wasn't advocating that as a solution, it's way too big a butterfly I think)

Originally Posted by Louied

BAOR PART II

So starting from my IRL ORBAT:

https://www.orbat85.nl/documents/BAOR-July-1989.pdf

1) a ninth Armd Bde being added to BAOR, it was a wish that was expressed many times throughout the 80's. Personally I envisioned the Guards Bns (two) and Household Cav regt in BAOR being consolidated (there is a document at Kew titled "Reformation of a Guards Bde in BAOR" however this document is being held from release due to, as stated, "correspondence with members of the Royal Family"). Now to make up numbers, the loss of an Armd Regt and two Armd Inf Bns from their parent Bdes. I took the Armd Regt in the UK that was split between Bovington/Catterick that assisted in Training and made it a fully fledged Armd Regt (its TTW role was providing the ADR, however I just reformed 5th RTR to take over the role). OR the second Armd Regt in 22 Armd Bde could have been used. This Bde had four Bns because it's TAOR was in front of the Hildesheim Canal (the Water Sandwich was on the west bank), with the redeployment, IRL of 19 Inf Bde, 22 Armd Bde was reinforced with an additional Armd Regt. The two Inf Bns can be found from UKLFs, either from the two JTP 362 Bns (see my doc, both were equipped with SAXON and had a TTW role of LOC duties. When released there are indications they would have been used in the Water Sandwich). OR Inf Bns which were in the MHD role (I'll get back to my thought on this when I touch on the MHD discussion)

In a T2K context what's your thoughts on giving both the Welsh and Irish Guards a second Battalion, which would bring them into line with the other Foot Guards Battalions pre Options For Change? In theory one could also de-amalgamate the Blues and Royals to create a 'new' armoured Regiment and thus make a Guards Armoured Brigade possible (obviously the discussion about manpower would be a concern).

[Louied]

My thoughts on the Gurkhas:

1) Divisional HQ w/Signal Regt (17th)
2) eight Inf Bns, perhaps a Para Bn but at least a Coy
3) three Bde HQ's & signal sqns (48th in Oman, 63rd & 99th in Hong Kong)
4) two Lt Regts RA
5) four Depot/Training Bns in Hong Kong or Brunei with a Bde HQ (26th)
6) An Engr Regt (four Sqns) and Logistic Regt (four Sqns)

All of the above is doable and was exactly what the Gurkhas fielded during the height of the Malayan Emergency & Confrontation.

Side note: I am assuming that besides embodying The Royal Hong Kong Regt (V), which was a RAC unit (HD Recce), a "Hong Kong Defence Regt" would be formed on the onset of the Sino-Soviet War.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

In a T2K context what's your thoughts on giving both the Welsh and Irish Guards a second Battalion, which would bring them into line with the other Foot Guards Battalions pre Options For Change? In theory one could also de-amalgamate the Blues and Royals to create a 'new' armoured Regiment and thus make a Guards Armoured Brigade possible (obviously the discussion about manpower would be a concern).

I don't see either the Irish or Welsh Guards getting a second bn, I don't think they would have the population base to support it. If anything I would say the 3rd Bn Grenadier Guards would be reformed.
Now I did think of a slight expansion. Just like the ninth Armd Bde, BAOR commanders wanted the re-establishment of a fourth rifle coy and an assault pioneer pl in each Inf Bn. Again I think that starting in October 1995 this may be feasible. As for extra Inf Bns I was thinking the following:

Each Div of Inf would be tasked to raise ONE Bn starting in November 1996

Guards Div = 3rd Bn The Grenadier Guards
- Third Battalion the Grenadier Guards, although older, is junior to the First and Second Battalions .... The companies from which the Third Battalion was derived were raised in Holland during the exile of King Charles II and did not serve in this country until after the formation of the original companies of the First and Second Battalions from Hansard

Scottish Div = 1st Bn The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

Queen's Div = 4th Bn The Royal Regt of Fusiliers

King's Div = 1st Bn The York and Lancaster Regt

Prince of Wales's Div =2nd Bn The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regt

Light Div = 4th Bn The Light Infantry

As for the Household Cavalry, I don't see any "de-amalgamations". If anything I can see the following:
The Life Guards = Type 43 Armd Regt in Germany, a Sqn of Reservists added to make it a Type 57 Regt. Re-titled 1st Household Cavalry Regt
The Blues & Royals = Armd Recce Regt. One Sqn (FOX CVR (W)) to Special Dutie sForce/Op Candid. reinforced with two Sqns of Reservists. re-titled 2nd Household Cavalry Regt
The Household Cavalry Mounted Regt = Home Defence Recce Regt. Two Sqns joined by another two of Reservists and recruits just released from training. re-titled 3rd Household Cavalry Regt

[Rainbow Six]

In the 1990’s we were winding down our presence in Hong Kong in preparation for handover and that doesn’t change even in a V1 timeline with an ongoing Cold War. Maybe there’s scope for the HK Garrison being beefed up after the start of the Sino - Soviet War to bolster security but I don’t see much political desire for additional infrastructure, e.g. Brigade HQ’s. I could see there being one HK based HQ, with maybe another one existing on paper only (26th?). But I think the other one would need an alternative home. Maybe the Sultan of Brunei requests a Brigade rather than a Battalion (and is willing to cover the costs)?

Agreed on the formation of an additional unit in Hong Kong. IIRC the RHKR(V) was under the control of the HK Government (and by extension the Governor?) but there was also the Hong Kong Military Service Corps (HKMSC) which was under Army command and I believe had a Light Infantry Company which could have expanded at the outbreak of the Sino - Soviet War. Plus there’s the Royal Hong Kong Police.

I like the six extra Infantry Battalions. I think it’s proportionate.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I like the six extra Infantry Battalions. I think it’s proportionate.

Any thoughts on growth of the TA?

[Louied]

Chico,

That’s coming…there was a “TA ORBAT Review” 1988-9. In brief (I will get detailed later) there possibly would have been six more Inf Bns, two more HD Recce Regts, and other units. A modest increase but it was felt it was needed to shore up MHD and release regulars for NATO roles. There was also discussion of using the HSF as command cadres on Mobilisation for HD Coys

[Ewan]

[QUOTE=Louied;91901]

Scottish Div = 1st Bn The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

[QUOTE]

Good to The Cameronians back into the fight, as a toddler I was at their disbandment in 1968 at Douglas.

That said the TA company in Hamilton held their lineage.

[Fallenkezef]

Has anyone considered that the British army might, in the right circumstances, reform the Guards as an armoured brigade or even division? There is a precedent set for it.

Household cavalry retains it's recce role

Grenadier and/or Coldstream Guards are expanded to two battalions, one of mechanised infantry and one of tanks.

Option A: Reinforced brigade size formation with 4 guards infantry battalions and one armoured.

Option B: An division sized formation with 2 brigades.

1st Brigade: 2 battalions of Coldstream guards (1 tank, 1 infantry), 1 battalion of Welsh guards

2nd Brigade: 2 battalions of Grenadier guards (1 tank, 1 infantry) 1 battalion of Scots guards.

It would echo how the Guards where used during the second world war.

[Louied]

Originally Posted by Fallenkezef

Has anyone considered that the British army might, in the right circumstances, reform the Guards as an armoured brigade or even division? There is a precedent set for it.

Household cavalry retains it's recce role

Grenadier and/or Coldstream Guards are expanded to two battalions, one of mechanised infantry and one of tanks.

Option A: Reinforced brigade size formation with 4 guards infantry battalions and one armoured.

Option B: An division sized formation with 2 brigades.

1st Brigade: 2 battalions of Coldstream guards (1 tank, 1 infantry), 1 battalion of Welsh guards

2nd Brigade: 2 battalions of Grenadier guards (1 tank, 1 infantry) 1 battalion of Scots guards.

It would echo how the Guards where used during the second world war.

As I mentioned in a previous post, a Guards Armd Bde (one HCR & two Guards Bns) is possible but no way would a Div be formed or Guards Bns convert to armour. Five out of the eight Guards Bns had important MHD/continuation of Govt roles. In World War 2 Guards Bns were converted to armour because after Dunkirk there was a push to form more Armd Divs and it was felt that the Guards discipline and intelligence would make them quick and easy students. As soon as VE Day came the Guards were keen to rid themselves of tanks and get back to “proper soldiering”. You also have to remember that certain Coys ie Queen’s Coy 1 GG and Prince of Wales’s Coy 1 WG, to name two, had in their ranks all men over 6 feet tall. This would have to be considered….when 1 GG became the first Warrior Bn, I have read that Queen’s Coy was not too comfortable in their new role……lol.

[Louied]

Just a quick aside, the document I mentioned earlier, Reformation of A Guards Brigade in BAOR has been released to the public at Kew. I am guessing that it had been closed because of correspondence with Prince Phillip and now after his passing they opened it. I’ll try to get a copy.

I will be back with an update tonight on how, based on IRL, I structured BAOR for T2k.