Mind Control and Mass Hypnosis in T2K

[General Pain]

Just found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6KGZ4UQjgc


And it got me thinking, when you can use mass hypnosis on that scale, what wouldn't you be able to achive in a post-apocalyptic scenario.

REF:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_control
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-L...ic_Programming
http://www.factnet.org/rancho1.htm
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/mkdoctable.htm
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/sub...cripts-nsa.htm
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/min...o-firewall.htm
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/mic...indcontrol.htm
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/ciabwash.htm
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/how...controlled.htm
http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/brainwashing.html
http://www.illuminati-news.com/detect-mindcontrol.htm

[copeab]

Just toss in the psioncs rules from Dark Conspiracy ...

[Targan]

Because the system I use is derived from Harnmaster it was natural that we left in the psionics rules but they are incredibly rare and I only allow those psionic talents that can be explained in other ways. For instance Captain Lamont, the uber-crusty USMC veteran NPC in my campaign has prescience but nobody thinks of him as being psionic, they just know that he has an uncanny ability to detect ambushes and unseen hazards. Another (now deceased) character had psychometry and simply seemed to others to be a natural tracker.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by copeab

Just toss in the psioncs rules from Dark Conspiracy ...

In "Traveller: The New Era" you will find rules for psionic powers, too. I like both "Dark Conspiracy" and "Traveller:TNE" as a separate games but the chance to use some of their specific rules in a T2K game (the three with the same set of rules) is a bonus point.

[General Pain]

I wasn't looking for a discussion on psionics, since I allready have designed rules for that...I was looking more for a discussion on brainwashing a-la :

Charles Manson
fundamentalist religious groups (like the youtube video provided)
stuff like that...

thanx for input anyway...

the harnmaster system is kind of intriguing,,,,

[Targan]

Originally Posted by General Pain

I wasn't looking for a discussion on psionics, since I allready have designed rules for that...I was looking more for a discussion on brainwashing...

I'm always on guard when GMing my campaign because the player of Major Po is a psychologist in RL and as both a player and as a GM he has seriously messed with my head in the past.

Also in my campaign Major Po has engaged in torture on a few occasions (which I really am not comfortable with but as I've said in the past I don't deliberately punish PCs for doing things I find distasteful). The creepy thing is that Major Po (being a medical doctor and having received fairly advanced interrogation training as an FBI agent) doesn't generally go in for the straightforward brutal type of torture. He mixes it up, combining psychological techniques with physical torture.

The Gunmaster system actually has a skill called Resist Drugs/Torture and a number of PCs and NPCs in the campaign have that skill open but few have a high level in that skill for obvious reasons. Generally they have the skill open because they have done some special forces or spook course in counter interrogation techniques but they don't usually have much opportunity to make development checks in the skill. If they did they would almost certainly have to start making rolls on Gunmaster's Psyche Disorders chart (which MajorPo also created).

[Targan]

To address the thread title, in my opinion even if it was possible to engage in mass hypnosis in a RL, controlled setting (which I doubt), how would you manage such a thing in T2K?

As for mind control, what exactly do you mean? Turning people into robot-like slaves? Beaming instructions right into their brains? Hmm, pure fantasy methinks (which is fine if that meshes with a particular campaign's style). Or do you mean brainwashing and psy-ops (which is definitely possible).

I would say that some of Major Po's methods in my campaign amount to brain washing as he has basically set up his own 'cult of personality'. From what I hear of HQ's campaign General Pain engages in much the same sort of activities. It is usually a longer term thing but with drugs and the right kind of specialists I think brainwashing could be successfulyl performed on small groups of people in a matter of weeks.

Psychological Operations! :P

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by Targan

To address the thread title, in my opinion even if it was possible to engage in mass hypnosis in a RL, controlled setting (which I doubt), how would you manage such a thing in T2K?

As for mind control, what exactly do you mean? Turning people into robot-like slaves? Beaming instructions right into their brains? Hmm, pure fantasy methinks (which is fine if that meshes with a particular campaign's style). Or do you mean brainwashing and psy-ops (which is definitely possible).

I would say that some of Major Po's methods in my campaign amount to brain washing as he has basically set up his own 'cult of personality'. From what I hear of HQ's campaign General Pain engages in much the same sort of activities. It is usually a longer term thing but with drugs and the right kind of specialists I think brainwashing could be successfulyl performed on small groups of people in a matter of weeks.

did you see the youtube video I posted?

[Targan]

Yes I watched it. I've seen lots of similar demonstrations. It is the opinion of many knowledgeable people that I have seen interviewed and that I have spoken to that to be hypnotised in that sort of public setting you have to want to be hypnotised. The people being hypnotised will do things they normally wouldn't do in public because they have an excuse (consciously or subconsciously) "oh it wasn't me, it was because the hypnotist took over my brain". Its crap.

In terms of a similar but different situation, that of "therapeutic hypnotism", there is a similar effect at work. People helped to enter a relaxed state can allow themselves (consciously or subconsciously) to become more susceptible to suggestion, sometimes for a beneficial result.

To suggest that through hypnotism you can force an unwilling subject to do something they do not want to do is, frankly, farcical. Just my opinion of course.

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by Targan

Yes I watched it. I've seen lots of similar demonstrations. It is the opinion of many knowledgeable people that I have seen interviewed and that I have spoken to that to be hypnotised in that sort of public setting you have to want to be hypnotised. The people being hypnotised will do things they normally wouldn't do in public because they have an excuse (consciously or subconsciously) "oh it wasn't me, it was because the hypnotist took over my brain". Its crap.

In terms of a similar but different situation, that of "therapeutic hypnotism", there is a similar effect at work. People helped to enter a relaxed state can allow themselves (consciously or subconsciously) to become more susceptible to suggestion, sometimes for a beneficial result.

To suggest that through hypnotism you can force an unwilling subject to do something they do not want to do is, frankly, farcical. Just my opinion of course.

I agree...

It was the video that inspred this thread...when people can agree to "freak out" like that ...what could'nt be achived when the alternative is say...banishment....

[MajorPo]

I think you can generally consider that people will do whatever comes naturally to them when given an 'excuse' like hypnotism to absolve responsibility for their actions. You can look at this from the viewpoint of social role theory that considers that we all take on particular roles or personas depending on the situation we are in and what we think is expected of us (for example you act differently around your friends than you would around your parents, or possibly your workmates) The 'role' of the hypnotised subject is dependant on the suggestions and vibe of the performance so people act accordingly.

Another thing to consider is that we all have very selective attention and will tend to fill in gaps and jump to conclusions when dealing with sensory data. This can be manipulated to make people think they have come up with ideas or to help them jump to the conclusions you want. For some very good work along these lines check out Derren Brown on youtube.

Basically mass hypnosis or 'mind control' is possible but difficult and will only ever work within the bounds of what the subjects are comfortable with. Of course over time and with repeated and consistent effort you could probably move a groups 'zone of comfort' towards whatever you wanted to achieve

[Littlearmies]

As well as T2K I also like GURPS - largely for the pleasure in reading such a well thought out logical system (playing RPGs is another matter these days for me) - one of the best settings I've come across is Transhuman Space. I read these books for pleasureas I think some of the ideas contained in them are wonderful.

One book I bought was "Toxic Memes" which is all about just this kind of subject:

http://www.sjgames.com/transhuman/toxicmemes/

[Targan]

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/846...tealing-a-kiss

Points for effort?

[kato13]

Deleted a message from a human assist spammer.

[Legbreaker]

I had a feeling they were a bit dodgy. Seemed a lot like a rant / rogue telemarketer / insane evangelist / self help guru....

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I had a feeling they were a bit dodgy. Seemed a lot like a rant / rogue telemarketer / insane evangelist / self help guru....

The poster seem to have a half dozen or so websites they wish to link to on forums to increase their Google rankings. They find tangentially related threads of forums and make posts with links. Being on Google's front page for a word like "hypnosis" is worth a lot of advertising dollars.

One of their other sites is related to Machine Shops. In my spammer research I found the following link to the best independent machine shops in the US

http://machineshopworkshop.com/?page_id=29

So it is not a total loss.

[Legbreaker]

Amazing! A spammer who actually gave us something useful.
Is the sky falling yet?

You just know that by mid 1997 those places will be pumping out war materials as fast as the can.

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by General Pain

did you see the youtube video I posted?

Actually no, I didn't. It seems to have been taken down.

As for mind control... via the sort of brain-washing, group-think pressure and cult-like indoctrination... well, I couldn't really come up with some rules along those lines. I figure it's going to have to be based on a resistance role against the attributes that represent Intelligence, Education and Willpower... but since I don't have the TW2K rules in front of me, I don't remember what the analogs are in the GDW rules. I write and design for Chaosium's Basic Role Playing (BRP) system where all three of those attributes are represented.

But there sure as hell is going to be a lot of "group-think" manipulation of individuals in the TW2K world... from the remnants of the pre-war governments, to the successor states, to bands of marauders... everyone is going to be trying to attract and retain talented personnel. The Soviets have their political indoctrination... most governments will resort to seriously nationalistic lines of argument about why soldiers should support their cause... new groups could be based around new or old religions... after all, look how much acreage the Muslims covered in their first years out of the gate. Being on God's side is a prime motivator for any population.

I think it would be worthwhile to read some books or see some movies that cover cults that have indoctrinated their membership to the point where they see the outside world as the enemy and are willing to kill to defend the group from that enemy.

Let's see... there's...

The People's Temple. That's Jim Jones and his Jesus-Socialist-Suicide- all stars.

David Koresh and the Branch Davidians...

The Good Ol' Manson Family...

Elizabeth Claire Profit and her underground bunkers for surviving doomsday...

(Ever notice how all these groups love isolated compounds? All the better to remove all other sources of information, my dear.)

The army of cannibals from Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle's Luficer's Hammer have yet to be improved on. Army deserters + ex-Black Panthers turned professional crime gang + crazy former televangelist = religiously motivated army that uses cannibalism as a way to forcibly indoctrinate those they've shanghaied into their ranks.

I recently read a novel from a fairly weak post-apocalyptic series called "The Afterblight Chronicles." In School's Out one of the threats is a gang of religious crazies who think that they are protected from "the Cull" (the plague that kills everyone who doesn't have O Negative blood) because they have painted themselves (head to toe) with the blood of O Negative people. It was a bit like some African insurgent armies use of tribal magic to protect their troops. Check out "General Buck Naked" for a particularly crazy use of tribal magic from the Liberian Civil War. Certainly that's the sort of thing I'd like to drop into a scenario: taking some craziness that we westerners only think could happen in for far off land filled with sub-humans... only to find it can happen right here if the conditions are right.

Anyone have some other examples of brain washing of an entire group to accept violent or counter-factual world-views?

Besides Patty Heast, I mean. I'm not sure the Stockholm Syndrome is a strong enough effect to describe what we're talking about here.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[boogiedowndonovan]

on a somewhat related note,

anyone seen the movie The Men Who Stare at Goats?

http://www.themenwhostareatgoatsmovie.com/#home

[Cdnwolf]

If we remember, Hitler managed to brainwash a whole nation with a forceful personality... no hocus pocus involved.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

If we remember, Hitler managed to brainwash a whole nation with a forceful personality... no hocus pocus involved.

Well not a whole nation, but your point is taken. Hitler is always one of the examples I use when I state that charisma is not directly related to appearance. Rasputin is another. Both had near hypnotic effects on people.

[kato13]

Second human assist spammer targeted this thread. I was watching them the whole way and pretty much knew what they were doing but I'm not online all the time. I think I am going to lock this thread to prevent it from happening again.