OT-How far did this world go into insanity?

[Mohoender]

Nothing to do with the usual topics but some of you might have heard about this: the young dutch girl who wanted to do a sail trip around the world.

The final decision came and I'm outraged. I don't really know if she should be allowed to do it but the reasons given to forbid her and put her under (what truly is) house arrest are insane and unwise. They don't even take time to ask the right questions.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10491181...ound-the-World!

Of course, this is only an extract but if the decision came through what is described here, I simply don't get it. The only wisdom in this entire text seems to come for a 17 years old british sailor.

Welcome to our nice Western Dictorial Democracies (One point for the UK, they seem to retain a tiny bit more wisdom than others). Gee, if I ever win the loto, the only decent place to move to could be England or Ireland (I stop recycling now and do everything to help accelerate global warming).

Okay, I might be overreacting but in case of a twilight war I'll be wishing for soviet victory (at least with them you know who the weirdoes are).

[Targan]

I think it should be up to her parents whether she is allowed to make the attempt. If they approve and that is her wish why not let her? I think if any authorities should be involved it is the maritime safety authorities, to make sure the vessel is fully seaworthy and properly equipped, and to check that the girl has sufficient experience and competance in sailing, navigation, first aid etc.

[Marc]

Mmmmm... It seems that people in the Dutch Social Services does not have too much work with the more common problems.

[Mohoender]

Targ

You are basically saying what the British boy (who finished his own circumnavigation) was saying. I have to count you among the wise men.
Saddly, wisdom is becoming rare.

By the way that girl was born in New Zealand. As a result, a New Zealander is currently under house arrest in the Netherlands under the following charges: being a girl, being socially too young, expressing a strong motivation for something, not hiding her peaceful opinion.

Of course, everything is done for her own good, in order to show her proper and well balanced exemples coming from adults.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Marc

Mmmmm... It seems that people in the Dutch Social Services does not have too much work with the more common problems.

If the Dutch law is similar to that of France (and I'm sure it is), she would, however, be found fully responsible if she goes out assaulting people.

[Graebarde]

Hmmmmmm.. the doc in question has been removed from that site. Perhaps there was some 'in appropriate content'? Sounds like censorship in action.

[natehale1971]

I had a long post for this, but decided not to post it since it would probly be seen as a political rant.

[MajorPo]

I'd have to agree, if she wants to do it and her parents are OK with it then Bon voyage! Of course she should need to have comprehensive insurance in case anything goes wrong. There have been a few 'adventurers' in recent times who have screwed up somewhere remote and then called for aid. The local countries then spend very large amounts of their tax payers money to rescue these people who don't pay it back (In fact seeing rescue as their right). They then go on to sell the story and make a load of money out of it. That doesn't seem right.
I say get insurance or don't expect rescue!

[Mohoender]

As I said my first reaction was motivated by the elements I could find yesterday. Things have evolved and the elements you can find today are much more different and seems wiser than those given by the media and the web during the last couple of days.

It seems, then, that the judicial decision was not intended to stop her project but is in fact intended to evaluate it. That seems indeed wiser and the final decision will be given only in late fall after a report on her capabilities to conduct this project is issued.

As a result, I was indeed overreacting or, in fact, reacting to elements that were wrongly presented by both the official medias and reports on the net. It is also possible that the dutch authorities changed their point of view over the last 24 hours.

Nevertheless, I'll be interested in knowing the final results on this case and should hope that, this time, the dutch authorities make the whole thing public right away.

[Mohoender]

Continuing to find information on the subject, it seems that the dutch authorities indeed changed their mind. What made me start this post were the decisions taken on monday during a court forbidden to any public view. This first court ruled to block her, to put her under a 3 month tutelage...

A new court took place later this week and took a decision which seems much wiser to me. It ruled to evaluate the project, to put her only under a 2 month tutelage inorder to give enough time for an investigation to be conducted.

It seems that the wisdom of Mike Perham, 17 years old sailor who just finished his own circumnavigation (started when he was 16), has been listened to.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Continuing to find information on the subject, it seems that the dutch authorities indeed changed their mind. What made me start this post were the decisions taken on monday during a court forbidden to any public view. This first court ruled to block her, to put her under a 3 month tutelage...

A new court took place later this week and took a decision which seems much wiser to me. It ruled to evaluate the project, to put her only under a 2 month tutelage inorder to give enough time for an investigation to be conducted.

It seems that the wisdom of Mike Perham, 17 years old sailor who just finished his own circumnavigation (started when he was 16), has been listened to.

I dont know the case well , but I gather that the Dutch municipal social services has stopped a girl of 13 from setting out to sail around the globe .And that they are conducting an inquiery to see if the girl and her parents are competent to undertake such a project .If they know about the project I personally feel that they are obliged to look into it - if the girl is deemed capable by another capable person and the project is well organized- - then certainly the DutchGov should send her a complimentary lifejacket and stand waving a tearful hanky at the pier .

But I dont believe there that such a project would be none of the authorities business.I think I accepth that they would have a legitimate reason to look into it .

Mohohender - I liked the point about being fully responsible in case of criminal charges though..funny absurdity .I guess along the lines of being old enough to serve and run a gun into the mountains but not old enough to buy alcohol...

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by headquarters

But I dont believe there that such a project would be none of the authorities business.I think I accepth that they would have a legitimate reason to look into it .

Mohohender - I liked the point about being fully responsible in case of criminal charges though..funny absurdity .I guess along the lines of being old enough to serve and run a gun into the mountains but not old enough to buy alcohol...

My first problem came from the fact they didn't call for an inquiry. Then, it seems that they changed that and, therefore, it became more legitimate.

Personally, being more of an anarchist, I would love to see the authorities being less involved into these things. The downside to this is that many people are not truly responsible as well.

Nevertheless, as the parent representative for our local daycare, I spent 1 full month last year to counter such authorities trying to close that day care on the base of false charges (charges brought by anonymous letter) and that is tiring.

The results being the following:
- the day care remains open and is entirely cleared of all charges.
- tensions among its personnel brought danger to the kids.
- the french law currently forbid any authorities to give credits to such anonymous letter (the main problem is that most state authorities consider themselve above the law).
- the authorities don't get involved anymore even when we, this time, could need them.
- the attack was mostly motivated by the fact that the head authority simply didn't like our type of day care.
- they issued a report fully based on the letter and stopped conducting further inquiries (something which would have been more legitimate)
- the negative report and its release was motivated by internal tensions among the authorities and should not have ended in our hands in the first place.
- I discovered on that occasion that previous investigations by the authority were conducted with little if any wisdom and put the kids in danger, with no consideration for basic security.
- the authority finally recognized that they were given advice on things they were not competent with. Saddly, they are allowed to give them.

HQ I understand your point but I prefer to remain a responsible anarchist and, unless proven to be myself incompetent, the legal competence of my country stops at my doorstep.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

My first problem came from the fact they didn't call for an inquiry. Then, it seems that they changed that and, therefore, it became more legitimate.

Personally, being more of an anarchist, I would love to see the authorities being less involved into these things. The downside to this is that many people are not truly responsible as well.

Nevertheless, as the parent representative for our local daycare, I spent 1 full month last year to counter such authorities trying to close that day care on the base of false charges (charges brought by anonymous letter) and that is tiring.

The results being the following:
- the day care remains open and is entirely cleared of all charges.
- tensions among its personnel brought danger to the kids.
- the french law currently forbid any authorities to give credits to such anonymous letter (the main problem is that most state authorities consider themselve above the law).
- the authorities don't get involved anymore even when we, this time, could need them.
- the attack was mostly motivated by the fact that the head authority simply didn't like our type of day care.
- they issued a report fully based on the letter and stopped conducting further inquiries (something which would have been more legitimate)
- the negative report and its release was motivated by internal tensions among the authorities and should not have ended in our hands in the first place.
- I discovered on that occasion that previous investigations by the authority were conducted with little if any wisdom and put the kids in danger, with no consideration for basic security.
- the authority finally recognized that they were given advice on things they were not competent with. Saddly, they are allowed to give them.

HQ I understand your point but I prefer to remain a responsible anarchist and, unless proven to be myself incompetent, the legal competence of my country stops at my doorstep.

I respect that-actually I feel teh same way .(The French mountains have always been hotbeds for anarchy as far as I recall !) .The law of the heart is the only true law.Sadly there are quite a few people that are irresponsible but lets not get into a discussion about who they are !

Inside the area of LEX MOHOHENDER you can light up for a cozy evening with this :

http://www.walyou.com/blog/2009/08/03/grenade-oil-lamp/

[Caradhras]

Mohoender - Dont move to the UK! We are mad here with political correctness and all that crap that is infuriating you. It is I who want to escape from the UK and thought the French were more sensible and I could come there

My problem with this case (without having read it beyond a standard BBC news story) is two-fold.

1. The psychological effects of the isololation on someone so young - having seen the impact on adults.

2. Entrusting parents to know what is best for a child can be flawed - OTT example being those in the US that put young kids into beauty and talent contests or push them in some sports to extremes.

So for me (personally, although I hate the nanny state) I think it would be sensible to put an adult tag (16) on solo sailing for beyond a week - but that is purely my take on it.

[Targan]

I read in one report about what the girl is planning that she intends to regularly come into port. She won't be spending the entire circumnavigation at sea. If the loneliness started to get to her she could always stop. Some children are much more independent and sensible than others. I was left entirely alone at home for weeks at a time when I was in my early teens and turned out fine. I think if there are no factors that ring alarm bells on the face of it, she shuld be allowed to make the attempt if she isn't being pressured into it and her parents are prepared to let her do it.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Caradhras

Mohoender - Dont move to the UK! We are mad here with political correctness and all that crap that is infuriating you. It is I who want to escape from the UK and thought the French were more sensible and I could come there

If you want to move to France, the place where I live is not too bad. Close enough to cities (Cannes and Nice). Remote enough so you can partially resist state pressure and insanity (saddly I'm not sure it will last). Fairly international: plenty of Danes, Swedish, British, Belgian, Dutch, Irish..., and plenty of them are living here all year long. I'm not only talking of retired people but of young couples in their 30's.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

If you want to move to France, the place where I live is not too bad. Close enough to cities (Cannes and Nice). Remote enough so you can partially resist state pressure and insanity (saddly I'm not sure it will last). Fairly international: plenty of Danes, Swedish, British, Belgian, Dutch, Irish..., and plenty of them are living here all year long. I'm not only talking of retired people but of young couples in their 30's.

Doesn't Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie live in that area? Have you ever gone to visit just to drool over Angelina?

[simonmark6]

Ah, La Belle France, pipedream of a million Brits fed up of wet summers and bad wine. My personal fantasy is a place near Saumur, in many ways it's perfect: beautiful countryside, the loire and a whacking great tank museum.

We holiday as a family near there every year, the people are friendly and the place absolutely beautiful. If my French was better I'd be there already.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

Ah, La Belle France, pipedream of a million Brits fed up of wet summers and bad wine. My personal fantasy is a place near Saumur, in many ways it's perfect: beautiful countryside, the loire and a whacking great tank museum.

My personal fantasy living place would be Montana. Not a lot up there city-wise, I'll grant you, but it would be nice to live out in the country away from most everything -- assuming I could still get decent TV and internet access...

[simonmark6]

Sounds lovely, and as you're not Russian you may well get your dream. Russians who dream of settling in Montana are doomed to die. It's a narrative imperetive.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Doesn't Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie live in that area? Have you ever gone to visit just to drool over Angelina?

You can also add about 100% of hollywood (from time to time). However, I'm not interested by them and I would not be able to recognize most of them if I was having dinner next to them.

I prefer (so-called) regular people or Hollywood people being regular (make your choice).

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

Ah, La Belle France, pipedream of a million Brits fed up of wet summers and bad wine. My personal fantasy is a place near Saumur, in many ways it's perfect: beautiful countryside, the loire and a whacking great tank museum.

We holiday as a family near there every year, the people are friendly and the place absolutely beautiful. If my French was better I'd be there already.

Great wines, gorgeous castles and a working Königstiger... Not bad.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Great wines, gorgeous castles and a working Königstiger... Not bad.

Ft. Sam Houston here in San Antonio has a really good museum, dedicated to the US Army Medical Corps. All sorts of good exhibits that are military medicine-related. Out in front, there's a great bronze statue -- it shows a female Army field nurse over a casualty; the nurse is looking upward as if for a Medevac pickup, or perhaps praying for the wounded soldier.

[Mohoender]

Hey! The Königstiger was to inflict wounds, not to take care of the wounded.