Optical relay for bradley

[leonpoi]

I think this has been touched on in another thread (somewhere), but I was wondering what the optical relay in the bradley actually allows. I understand it allows the commander to see what the gunner is aiming at, but can the commander control and fire the gun if the gunner is killed (or does he just shift over a seat?).?

I'm interested because I was reading the M1A1 article in the challenger mag and it says that the commander can take over the firing of the gun if the gunner is not available, and based on this picture, the commander must do this without physically moving to the gunner's seat.



I'm trying to find this type of info out for a variety (all) vehicles in the game so that I can understand what can be achieved if a vehicle is down a crew member or 2.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Many AFVs with 2+ man turrets allow the commander to take control of the maingun from the gunner, partly because the commander is the one looking for targets and if he believes one target is more threatening than another, he can aim the gun at that target and let the gunner do his job or he can take the shot himself.

[leonpoi]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Many AFVs with 2+ man turrets allow the commander to take control of the maingun from the gunner, partly because the commander is the one looking for targets and if he believes one target is more threatening than another, he can aim the gun at that target and let the gunner do his job or he can take the shot himself.

Thanks

[ChalkLine]

Pretty much any vehicle from the M48 onwards. The M551 in Vietnam would load the main gun with canister and the loader and gunner might even sit outside the vehicle to avoid being killed if they hit a mine.

[Targan]

I would LOVE to see film footage of a 152mm cannister round being fired. Anyone know whether such footage might be accessible online?

[leonpoi]

Originally Posted by Targan

I would LOVE to see film footage of a 152mm cannister round being fired. Anyone know whether such footage might be accessible online?

pretty sure there is one on youtube, not sure if it's 152mm, but it's canister

[edit]
120mm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgn1nhUEgo8

[Targan]

Seen cannister fired from tank guns before. But the 152mm gun firing cannister, that would really have to be something. Huge bore to start with, and that short barrel - the biggest shotgun round EVER! (Well maybe not, but I'm sure you understand my enthusiasm).

[leonpoi]

Instead of starting a new thread I'll post another question here and hope for the best:
Area tank's gunsight, range finder and night vision (or thermal etc) systems separate or all the same thing? I ask because I'm making an expanded vehicle damage table that I hope will be somewhere intermediate in complexity of tw2.2 and tw1.0 for vehicle damage and I don't know if these systems can be damaged separately and what penalty to impose when they are damaged.

[ChalkLine]

Generally separate, but there are some exceptions.

[cavtroop]

In the Bradley (M2A2 and M3A2, A3 has a whole different system I'm not very familiar with), the BC (Bradley Commander) can control most actions in the turret from his station. However, he only has a joystick to do so, not a full yoke like the gunner has - so it's slightly more difficult. He also has to reach way down to his left to control the weapon systems choice of ammo/ROF. In addition, he only has a single eyepiece to view what the gunner sees, and not dual-eye view. In short, shooting from the BC position is more difficult that from the gunners position, though BC's train for it.

As far as the systems being separate - yes, they are, but generally they are housed in the same place - otherwise bore-sighting would be more cumbersome.

Keep in mind, with the M2A3 and M1A2, the commanders have independent sights than the gunners - that way, while the gunner is identifying and engaging one target, the Commander is identifying the next target. Once the 1st target is killed, some mechanism is used (a button, I believe, but I've never seen it) that automatically swings the turret onto the new target for the gunner to engage, while the commander starts to scan elsewhere for a new target. This significantly ups the lethality of the weapons systems.

[leonpoi]

Thanks for that, some good information.

Now another question:
I notice that in tw2k v1 vehicles have a RF bonus - this seems to be translated into tw2kv2.0 as far as I can tell from looking at the vehicle guides (I don't own v2, only 2.2). 2.2 has a FC bonus, but this doesn't give a bonus to hit but rather removes penalties for target movement and obscuration. Did v2 implement the RF/FC bonus as a bonus to hit?

Also, I notice that the spread of numbers is greater +0 to +4/+5 - I was considering using both numbers - the 2.2 FC bonus to remove penalties and the v2 RF bonus as a flat bonus to hit for shots at vehicles and buildings. I was considering adding the bonus for both aimed and unaimed shots - mainly to allow autocannons firing bursts to actually hit something (e.g. 1/4 skill = 12/4 = 3 add RF of 4 = 7 to hit with each dice on a burst).

[Targan]

In the system I use I treat most autocannon 'bursts' as a series of single shots fired in quick succession rather than as bursts in the way that small arms automatic bursts are treated. This is because the rate of fire of autocannons is much slower than that of weapons such as machine guns, assault rifles and SMGs. That would not of course apply for weapon systems which use multiple autocannons firing in sequence or gatling-type autocannon (such as anti aircraft gun systems) as they achieve rates of fire comperable to or even greater than MGs.

[leonpoi]

Originally Posted by Targan

In the system I use I treat most autocannon 'bursts' as a series of single shots fired in quick succession rather than as bursts in the way that small arms automatic bursts are treated. This is because the rate of fire of autocannons is much slower than that of weapons such as machine guns, assault rifles and SMGs. That would not of course apply for weapon systems which use multiple autocannons firing in sequence or gatling-type autocannon (such as anti aircraft gun systems) as they achieve rates of fire comperable to or even greater than MGs.

I agree that something like that has to be used in 2.2 (kind of looks after itself in tw2013). In tw2.2 I've also said that a vehicle exists in its own "kill-zone" so 1/2 of any misses are re-rolled to hit again.

[Legbreaker]

Quick question.

Does the Bradely have a manual backup for traverse and elevation of the 25mm (and by default the coax)?

[leonpoi]

From what I've been reading, yes.

Turret power control: electric/manual
(by commander) yes
(by gunner) yes
Max rate power traverse: 60º/s
Max rate power elevation: 60º/s
Gun elevation/depression: +60/-10º
Turret traverse: 360º

[cavtroop]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Quick question.

Does the Bradely have a manual backup for traverse and elevation of the 25mm (and by default the coax)?

Yeah, but it sucks to use There is a couple of wheels you spin to elevate the turret, and swing it around. It's slow, and cumbersome, and tough to operate with your eye on the optics.

[Legbreaker]

Better than loosing power and not being able to shoot back though I suppose....

[cavtroop]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Better than loosing power and not being able to shoot back though I suppose....

LOL, marginally

Somewhere around here I have a great pic of the inside of the Bradley turret - I can't seem to find it though. Hopefully I can find it soon, and get it posted...

[leonpoi]

Originally Posted by cavtroop

Yeah, but it sucks to use There is a couple of wheels you spin to elevate the turret, and swing it around. It's slow, and cumbersome, and tough to operate with your eye on the optics.

Any idea how long it would take to turn the turret 360 manually?

[cavtroop]

Originally Posted by leonpoi

Any idea how long it would take to turn the turret 360 manually?

According to the specs above, about 6 seconds. Though, I believe that's the spec for powered traverse - however, I seem to remember it being much faster than that.



Seriously, I only tried it manually once - you spin and spin and spin, and the turret moves a little, the gearing is very high. It's been damn near 18 years now, but I seem to remember it being pretty slow.

[Legbreaker]

I'd imagine traverse would be slow - it's a heavy damn turret after all so the gearing would have to be built to match.
Elevation on the other hand might be a bit easier if the weapons are balanced on the pivot point. Of course being a military vehicle, it's not exactly made with crew comfort in mind....

[leonpoi]

Originally Posted by cavtroop

According to the specs above, about 6 seconds. Though, I believe that's the spec for powered traverse - however, I seem to remember it being much faster than that.



Seriously, I only tried it manually once - you spin and spin and spin, and the turret moves a little, the gearing is very high. It's been damn near 18 years now, but I seem to remember it being pretty slow.

yeah, I think that's the manual speed. I'm currently going through a process of updating the vehicle stats for my game and including things like the turret speed. I try to find this type of info on the web but it's hard to find - most of the time I hop onto youtube, find videos of the vehicles, and look how long it takes for their turrets to turn. I would be interested to know how long it takes to turn the turret manually because I could use that in the event that the electric/hydraulic transverse has been damaged.

This is the file I've been working on in my spare time - though I haven't had much of that lately:
http://sites.google.com/site/leonpoi...attredirects=0

I'd like some feedback into external vehicle load. The twilight 2000 rulebooks give external load (during character creation) as 10% of the vehicle weight. Now can anyone with any experience tell me if a tank can really have 3 or 5 tonnes of equipment strapped to the top of it and still go? I could believe it, a SUV here, a SUV there, pretty soon you're talking about real weight - could the suspension handle it? How about 12 tonne wheeled IFV - 1200 kg strapped on the outside, I don't know, can anyone lend insight?
thanks in advance.

[cavtroop]

Originally Posted by leonpoi

yeah, I think that's the manual speed. I'm currently going through a process of updating the vehicle stats for my game and including things like the turret speed. I try to find this type of info on the web but it's hard to find - most of the time I hop onto youtube, find videos of the vehicles, and look how long it takes for their turrets to turn. I would be interested to know how long it takes to turn the turret manually because I could use that in the event that the electric/hydraulic transverse has been damaged.

This is the file I've been working on in my spare time - though I haven't had much of that lately:
http://sites.google.com/site/leonpoi...attredirects=0

I'd like some feedback into external vehicle load. The twilight 2000 rulebooks give external load (during character creation) as 10% of the vehicle weight. Now can anyone with any experience tell me if a tank can really have 3 or 5 tonnes of equipment strapped to the top of it and still go? I could believe it, a SUV here, a SUV there, pretty soon you're talking about real weight - could the suspension handle it? How about 12 tonne wheeled IFV - 1200 kg strapped on the outside, I don't know, can anyone lend insight?
thanks in advance.

There is no way you could spin a Bradley turret manually 360 degrees in 6 seconds, just aint going to happen. I seem to remember 2.5 seconds being the powered time around - it's really quick.

As for load capacity, there would be no problem throwing an extra few tons on the Bradley, or any AFV really. Reactive armor has to weigh several tons (I have no clue though), and that's just slapped on existing vehicles.

[Legbreaker]

I need a little assistance...

I'm almost positive I've seen an ARV based on the M2 Bradley chassis in a similar way that the M88 is based on the M60. Does such a vehicle exist, even in prototype form, and what might it's towing capacity be?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Quick question.

Does the Bradely have a manual backup for traverse and elevation of the 25mm (and by default the coax)?

It does have a manual backup, but I never tried it, and the last Bradley I worked out of was the M-2A1.

I also remember there were two turret rotation rates with the electric traverse -- normal speed and high-speed. I don't remember the rotation rates; I'll have to dig out my Bradley manual.

[leonpoi]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

It does have a manual backup, but I never tried it, and the last Bradley I worked out of was the M-2A1.

I also remember there were two turret rotation rates with the electric traverse -- normal speed and high-speed. I don't remember the rotation rates; I'll have to dig out my Bradley manual.

That would be great. thanks. Do you read the manual before operating or is it like a vcr or toaster - you just press some buttons and see what happens

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by leonpoi

That would be great. thanks. Do you read the manual before operating or is it like a vcr or toaster - you just press some buttons and see what happens

Actually, yes! No one really RTFMs!

[pmulcahy11b]

Well, that took a ridiculous amount of time -- 30 degrees per second at normal rate and 60 degrees per second at high speed traverse.

[Legbreaker]

Does the engine need to be running to provide electrical power to the turret traverse, etc? Is it able to operate solely on batteries (at least until they go flat)?

[cavtroop]

No, engine doesn't need to be running. We'd go an hour or so, run the engine for 15 mins to charge the batteries up, then shut it down again. Full use of the turret with the engine off.