Preferred sniper rifle

[kato13]

kcdusk 11-06-2005, 05:53 PM Hey Guys


In game terms, what would your preferred sniper weapon be? Taking into account weight, range, ROF, ammunition availability, stopping power.

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graebardeII 11-06-2005, 07:00 PM SSG69 7.62N double-set triggers, Zeiss 4x-12x scope.

(they fire 9" rings at 1000 meters out of the box!)

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kcdusk 11-06-2005, 07:13 PM What nationality is that rifle?

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graebardeII 11-06-2005, 07:19 PM Austrian

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kcdusk 11-06-2005, 07:27 PM Bolt Action? Means it fires slow.


Range 98, mmm


Damage of 4 mmm


In game terms, why pick this one?

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pmulcahy 11-06-2005, 07:35 PM Bolt-action rifles are generally more accurate for sniper work, and make more stable platforms.


Anyway, I was all jazzed up to be using an M-24, but then I failed the physical for sniper school when I was in the Army because of my eyesight...

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graebardeII 11-06-2005, 07:37 PM 1. Bolt actions tend to be more accurate than semi-automatic.

2. Range is really more than the game stats.

3. Sniper rifles do not need to be rapid fire weapons. They are surgical instruments.

4. Why this one... I just like the weapon, action, and performance in RL. Just my preference.

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Runic_Blade 11-06-2005, 08:01 PM THIS (http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn56-e.htm) is my long range boomstick!

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Milano 11-07-2005, 05:45 AM I gotta add aittle here I have a SSG-69, and it is a marvelous weapon. At 200 yds it can group rounds into a quarter. Up to 600 yds coyotes are nothing but tapioca pudding. Like I say a fine weapon. My only complaint is that it doesn't come chambered in 300 win mag. It is only beacuse of this that the M24 edges it out. (I have also used M24s and they just didn't do it for me like the SSG. Although, they are just as capeable and just as good a firearm.)

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kcdusk 11-07-2005, 09:58 PM whats the difference between a sharpshooter rifle and a sniper rifle?

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ReHerakhte 11-08-2005, 03:11 AM These days, about the only difference between a sharpshooter rifle and a sniper rifle is in the marketing used by the company selling the weapon.


In the past there was a better distinction so that a sharpshooter rifle was a standard production model noted for its superior accuracy. Often the best shot in a unit would get this weapon for shooting in support of the unit while directly engaging the enemy. For example, in the early 1900s the best shot in a British platoon would still be given a service issue .303 SMLE but it would be one know for superior accuracy.

The idea being that he would take out important enemies when the platoon was in the thick of it but he still appeared to be a regular infantry soldier. In pretty much the same way, the Soviets issued the SVD rifle to the most accurate shot in the platoon and he would be tasked to shoot any radio operators, officers, heavy weapons crew etc. while the rest of the platoon gunned up everyone else.

This concept was also used by the West Germans with the G3A3Z rifle being a superior production model G3A3 that was fitted out with a 6 power scope and issued to marksmen within a company or platoon.


A sniper would typically get a rifle that was noted for its accuracy but was better suited to the longer range, (sometimes) concealed shooting tasks expected of snipers. Sometimes these were modifications of reliable, accurate hunting rifles and sometimes they were purpose designed. But overall they were a purpose built or purpose modified weapon to suit the needs of someone sneaking about the place taking on the enemy when the opportunity was right (because he wouldn't have a platoon backing him up most of the time!) Examples of purpose built sniper rifles are such things as the PSG-1 which is a development of the G3 rifle or the SVD which uses aspects of the AK design.


However to blur the whole deal, there were a good number of normal service rifles converted over to the sniping role simply by putting better sights on them. Examples include the US Springfield M1903 rifle of WW1 being used as a sniping rifle into WW2 and I think also the Korean War or the German Walther G43 rifle of WW2 that started life as an infantry rifle but there was never enough production of them so they were issued most often as sniping rifles.

Or a standard service rifle would be severely modified to become a sniping system such as the L42A1 which is a 7.62mmN update of the .303 SMLE or the M21 developed from the M14.


And that's not including those snipers who found novel new ways to shoot the enemy at a distance like the legendary Carlos Hathcock, a US Marine sniper who used a .50cal M2 HMG to take out a North Vietnamese officer from something like 2000m (I can't remember the specifics but Hathcock, knowing the M2 could be locked to fire a single shot only, tricked up the HMG with appropriate sights and working from a secure Marine base, took out the officer while he was giving instructions to his troops from what I recall. The effect of seeing their officer killed while the Americans were so far away demoralized the Viets quite badly).


In game terms, there would be little distinction between a sharpshooter rifle and any other service rifle because most game rules don't recognize the differences in accuracy of a series of the same rifle. To compound that problem, most game systems are written by people who have little to no knowledge of military weapons so often they arbitrarily lump weapons together based on what little info they have, or worse, what they think is right.

If you wanted, you could introduce the concept of a sharpshooter's rifle by giving a standard rifle a slight increase in range or perhaps a slight bonus to the Small Arms task roll. I like the increase in range idea myself.

As for sniper rifles, it's easy enough for a game company to look up a book bought in any bookstore and find what is considered a sniper rifle except that they then look at any rifle with a telescopic sight and then think it's a sniper rifle!


And that's probably enough dribbling on from me!

Cheers,

Kevin

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kcdusk 11-08-2005, 03:48 AM Thanks Kevin


The range thing is probably covered by the rules, although i noticed in a challenge magazine that an option was that if you had a small arms (rifle) skill greater than 7 you could get a sniper type skill. That is, subtract 7 from your rifle skill and multiply that by your sniper rifle range and that is your new minimum.


ie, rifle skill of 9 subtract 7 equals 2. Your sniper rifle has close range of 90 but using sniper skill you can multiply the close range by 2 to get a new close range of 180, medium of 360m and long range of 720m. I like this rule. Rifle skill combined with a sniper weapon increases range, which makes good real world sense to me.


For sniper rifles i might allow an accuracy modifier, say, of rounding up instead of down. So a rifle asset of 19 at long range would normally be 9.5 rounded down to 9. If its a sniper rifle i might allow you to round up to 10. Or just make it a whole plus 1. So an asset of 20 at medium is 10, +1 for sniper rifle means 11 to hit.


For anyone else reading along, i think the sniper rifle also has the advantage of if an aimed shot is used you can pick the target location hit (eg head or chest) without the difficulty changing for a called shot. I can start to see some benefits now to sniper rifles in game terms.


Gotta take the bad with the good though. I'm going to try and work into my game random events like knocking the scope or barrel and not realising it isnt zeroed anymore to reflect the sensitive nature of sniper rilfes. And initiative if using a scope is always lost by the sniper.

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ReHerakhte 11-08-2005, 06:32 AM The thing to remember with a "sharpshooter" rifle, is that it is a stock standard rifle without any scope but it has slightly superior accuracy than most of the other rifles of exactly the same type.

In theory, any rifle can be used for sniping as long as you put a suitable sight on it and that is pretty much covered by Twilight rules with the +15 for aimed shots while using a scope.


The idea of increasing the accuracy of a rifle to make it a sharpshooter rifle is more a case of adding say another 2 to 5 to the range so that it has a slightly longer range than a bog-standard model but it is not as capable as a rifle with a scope on it. This idea isn't covered by the rules.


The Challenge article was a good way to make sniping rifles more effective but they do tend to make any character with some decent Small Arms skill an "instant" sniper.

I discussed the Challenge article with some of my Players a while back and we felt that the option should be for characters who have actually taken a sniper type career. Another idea that came up, although we didn't explore it much, was the idea of making the sniping ability another Cascade of Small Arms with the basic idea that you used the Small Arms (Sniping) skill as the multiplier in the option rules rather than what's left after you subtract 7 from your Small Arms (Rifle) skill.


But, as I say, for all the talking we did about it, we never actually did anything with it. However, I do like the idea of making one rifle in a bunch a little more accurate and having it used as a sharpshooter rifle, so for example, the FN FAL has a range of 65 normally so the sharpshooter version gets say an extra 5 making total Range as Close - 70, Medium - 140, Long - 280 and Extreme - 560 compared to Close - 65, Medium - 130, Long - 260 & Extreme - 520 for a normal FAL.

This could make the rifle a prized piece of gear if you didn't have a sniping rifle or access to any suitable sights. You could afford to sit just that little further back from the enemy! In game terms it's not a big advantage and only one in every few thousand rifles produced would actually have this benefit so it's not like everyone in the group will have one.


Hmm, I'm having more ideas for optional rules now! LOL

Cheers,

Kevin

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DamianR 11-08-2005, 07:10 AM Back onto the Topic...


Some version of the Accuracy International AW in .338 magnum, closely followed by the same gun in 7.62N. http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn06-e.htm

The .338 has the extra range and hitting power to get out past 1000m with relative ease. However the 7.62N with the right ammo isn't that much behind in range.

The 7.62N gun has the advantage however of relative ease of getting something to put through it, while you'd want to carry your own reloading gear for the .338. Plus it can come factory with a small suppressor, to make the survivors life even harder when trying to spot you. :fsniper:


And this is a more practical AMR than the 20mm job. http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn25-e.htm

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Badbru 11-19-2005, 04:08 PM In game terms, does anyone really play a sniper like a sniper should be? I'd suspect it'd be much more like a unit sharpshooter than a true sniper anyway.


How often are players involving themselves in firefights beyond 100 to 200 meters?


In game terms I'd go with the US army sniper rifle M24.


Why, because a sniper in any game I have run would act more like a unit sharpshooter anyway.


The M24 is semi auto for faster 2nd shot or multi target engagements


Is fed from a twenty round box.


Is nearly as accurate as any of the other game statted rifles ( I think it was rng 65 instead of 75, big deal) and not much heavier, if at all than most of the others too.


And I just like the look of em

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ChalkLine 11-19-2005, 04:23 PM My vote is for either the SVD or the G3A3Z, both can be used as a combat weapon easily (both have bayonet lugs!) and both are rugged weapons that are time proven and use some of the most common calibre rounds available. Parts for both are extremeyl common, although the SVD uses the short bolt action that means it has less interchangeability than the G3A3Z.


As has been noted, the weapon system isn't the matter it's the role it's used in, we had a player run a sniper PC (yes Damian, you) and I could never let him use his PC correctly, it didn't suit the game. Snipers are agame in themselves, although the interdiction role is ideal for them, channelling the foe into an ambush.


Hey, that gives me an idea . . .

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kcdusk 11-19-2005, 04:35 PM "Run a sniper that way a sniper should?" - what does this mean?


I have a "sniper", in Afgahanastan. He comes across many targets of opportunity who he does not engage. He has been told to take out the commander of a platoon of tanks. He wont compromise his mission until he has done that.


On the way out he may start to engage more, but that will also endanger him trying to get out.


Is this how a sniper is played?


A marksmen though (i'm guessing) engages everything .... ?

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pmulcahy 11-19-2005, 04:36 PM In game terms, does anyone really play a sniper like a sniper should be? I'd suspect it'd be much more like a unit sharpshooter than a true sniper anyway.


How often are players involving themselves in firefights beyond 100 to 200 meters?


In game terms I'd go with the US army sniper rifle M24.


Why, because a sniper in any game I have run would act more like a unit sharpshooter anyway.


The M24 is semi auto for faster 2nd shot or multi target engagements


Is fed from a twenty round box.


Is nearly as accurate as any of the other game statted rifles ( I think it was rng 65 instead of 75, big deal) and not much heavier, if at all than most of the others too.


And I just like the look of em


You're actually thinking of the M-25. The M-24 SWS is a bolt-action rifle based on the Remington 700, fed from a 5-round rotary magazine and chambered in .300 Win Mag.

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kcdusk 11-19-2005, 04:44 PM This has been cut n pasted from the Gerald Seymour - Holding the Zero thread ...


The AWM has greater range and hitting power than the standard AW using 7.62n, and is more manoeuverable and covert than the heavier AW50 version.


The armour piercing rounds, the green spot ball, gives the AWM a versatility not present with more conventional sniper rifles. It has the penatrive power using FMJ rounds to be used successfully against a variety of targets - ammunition dumps, grounded aircraft, radar installations, bunkers and armoured vehilces.


The AWM creates COMBAT POWER. It can degrade key equipment and gain psychological battlefield advantage."


Sold me ...

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ChalkLine 11-19-2005, 05:42 PM "Run a sniper that way a sniper should?" - what does this mean?


Well, I've always seen sniper teams deployed in main force operations in a similiar way you deploy company or battalion assets, in situations where you need to alter the tactical balance in favour of your infantry (who are the guys that win wars). Back in the MOUT/FIBUA thread I mentioned how a sniper team provides reconnaisance and area denial, channeling and controlling the movement and options of the enemy.

So, if you deploy company delta to hold two blocks of city and company charlie is holding two blocks a kilometre away, sniper teams may be deployed to deny the intervening area to enemy troops, harrassing with invisible, accurate fire and calling artillery onto forming up points. Obviously, you have to pick your ground, and the snipers prefer open boulevardes and squares, etc.


If attached to a platoon, they become sharpshooters and deliver accurate small arms fire or control mortar artillery to platoon targets, but can't really be used in their strategic forte. This is how poor old Selner and his L96 in my game ended up in most cases, unable to alter the strategic situation.

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ReHerakhte 11-19-2005, 06:03 PM G'Day all, a three-part reply here...


In response to Badbru's question, I have had some Players take on the role of sniper but in reality they actually were sharpshooters.

In the post-apoc game that I have recently got started, one of the Players is in a scout role but has a good SA (Rifle) skill so he has been encouraged to take up the teams sniper rifle - which is really meant as a sharpshooter's rifle but they all just call it a sniper rifle (the weapon in question is the 7.62mmN G3A3Z). So when he is in a base area etc. he's going to get stuck on 'overwatch' duties, wandering around the place observing the personnel outside waiting to provide accurate supporting fire for anyone who gets into some bother (and there is a large pride of former zoo lions in the area that have caused the team some trouble!) - if he was a trained sniper this job would be a criminal waste of his talents!


In response to ChalkLine, I agree completely that PC snipers would be a game unto themselves. It would sure as hell make an interesting campaign with say a five or six man Sniper/Observation team providing surveillance and sniping for a larger unit. Two shooters, two observers and one or two extras to provide security, this is the kind of setup I read the US Army (or was it the Marines?) were using in Iraq. They would often occupy a commanding position for the day and provide forward observer info for friendly units as well as taking care of any heavy weapons or other snipers before friendly units could come in contact with the enemy.


In response to kcdusk, a marksman (or sharpshooter) is likely to be one of the better shooters in their unit (generally at platoon or company level) who is given the task of concentrating his actions on specific targets (such as radio operators, officers, machinegunners, vehicle commanders or drivers, heavy weapons teams, anti-aircraft teams etc.). The other people in the unit engage their targets as directed by their leaders and the team leaders will decide which targets deserve the most attention. So, the marksman ignores the grunts and concentrates on the support or leadership personnel to make life harder for those grunts and life easier for his platoon/company when they are engaging the enemy.

While the marksman seems to be just like a sniper, the difference is that he is still part of his platoon or company and is a specialized weapon within the unit like the platoon's machineguns for example.

A sniper team is under much higher command and is tasked with supporting much larger unit actions or longer range tactical goals. For example, a sniper team might be deployed far in advance of the regular units and be tasked with eliminating certain personnel or equipment to make life harder for the enemy before they engage the friendlies. Some countries train their sniper teams in forward observer tasks and even damage assessment and they provide another reconnaissance tool for higher command.

So the short and sharp (or should that be harsh!) answer is, a sniper is a specialized tool used for precision work while a marksman/sharpshooter is simply a 'good shot'.


Sorry all, another rambling post from me!

Cheers,

Kevin

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DamianR 11-19-2005, 06:37 PM Agreed that Selner was more of a Designated Marksman in SB, rather than a true sniper any more.

However it did allow for a few impressive shots from time to time... :fsniper:


Agreed that a sniper based game would be interesting, although it would probably be better set on a more static front line, rather than the classic polish campaign.

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Badbru 11-19-2005, 06:44 PM [

So the short and sharp (or should that be harsh!) answer is, a sniper is a specialized tool used for precision work while a marksman/sharpshooter is simply a 'good shot'.


Sorry all, another rambling post from me!

Cheers,

Kevin[/QUOTE]


snipped alot of quality to highlight this bit.


Given the nature of the game, in my experience, a bunch of fairly disparate player characters wandering around Poland from village to village, it's going to be far more likely that the player with a snipers rifle, if acting in conjunction with his fellow players, will be performing the role of marksman/sharpshooter.


The weapon I was thinking of is now called the M25, yes, and the T2k book lists it as the M21. But basically yes an accurised M14.

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Targan 11-20-2005, 11:03 PM In my campaign it is not uncommon for the party to deploy a sniper and observer in an overwatch position prior to the main element moving into a predetermined hostile area, if they are expecting big trouble.

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copeab 11-21-2005, 12:03 AM Hey Guys


In game terms, what would your preferred sniper weapon be? Taking into account weight, range, ROF, ammunition availability, stopping power.


Can I be a smart-ass and answer "120mm M256"?


Brandon

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Targan 11-21-2005, 12:05 AM You are not a smart arse. You are a winner. Right out to about 4.5km. Hard for the enemy to argue the point with a 120mm hole through their chest. Right on brother.

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