AKM or AK-74

[Brother in Arms]

Hey everyone

I was wondering what you usually have WP soldiers armed with. Now I know at the time of the original printing of T2K not much was known about the AK-74 though the book does mention it, and also converted AKM's that use the 5.45X39mm round. Granted not all of the WP countries made a 5.45X39mm AK variant in fact when Russia invaded Georgia recently there troops where still armed with 7.62X39mm AKM. So sattellite nations are likely to still be armed with AKM's either of Russian Manufacture of of there own manufacture.

That being said by the 1990's in real life the AK-74 had supplanted the AKM in the hands of the Russians for more than a decade. By Afghanistan most of the Russian Army was equipped with the AK-74. Most of the eastern block countries made there own versions of the 74, but later in the 1980's. Countries like Romania made millions of AKM's and still do today, though they also make 74's the AKM seem more prevalent. Hungary stuck with the 7.62X39mm AK and made there own version the AMD-63 and AMD-65 as well as more standard clones of AKM's with fixed butt stock and under folding butt stocks as well.

So I guess my question is do you usually have WP forces armed by there country of origin? Or just a mix of whatever is available to them at the time? How common is the 5.45X39mm weapons vs. the older 7.62x39mm type.

Brother in Arms

[kato13]

I would probably only have had a majority of AK-74s in the Following

USSR
Spec Ops
Cat A
Cat B

East German
Spec Ops
Cat A
Some Cat B

Poland
Spec Ops
Cat A

Czechoslovakia
Spec Ops
Cat A

Other Pact
Spec Ops

Re-chambers would extend a level below.
Cat C for USSR for example

7.62 Would Start Two Levels Below.
Mobilization Only for USSR for example.


Of course this would have a ton of flexibility. Mobilization Only units near Moscow might have the same equipment as Cat B units in Azerbaijan. Plus oddly equipped reinforcements would really muddy the waters.

[jester]

I generaly give the current top of the line weapons to regular units. Special weapons like the AK 95 and such to ELITE type units, who get whatever they want.

As for the AK 47 type weapons, they go to the nations who still use them, as has already been mentioned and irregular forces. I tend to use ALOT of militia in my campaigns, and occassional partisans and locals who are really just an armed mob of villagers, these folks tend to have OLDER weapons, shotguns, Mausers and Mosin Nagant rifles, nagant revolvers and even PPsH submachineguns and SKSs. As I said, those normaly go to irregulars who are basicaly villagers, and taking from WWII a truck pulls up, and they start tossing out bundles of weapons or boxes, toss out some ammo pouches, a few caps and maybe uniform jackets and poof you are now members of the reserves and will fight for Mother Russia!

As for mobilized units, again, when they were Raised, if they had a prewar unit then they may get the rechambered rifles, if they were raised after the war then they may get the 47.

Also, some elite units can have AK 47s because they preffer them. I remember reading an article in Soldier of Fiction that actualy mentioned this. Among the Soviet forces in A-stan they preffered the 7.62 over the 5.45 round.

And of course marauders, bandits and criminals usualy use the 47, since they are cheaper and a bit shorter with more variations.

One other thing to consider, the 47 would be much more common in Asia, Africa and S. America than the 74, and of course the Middle East.

I have done similiar with US weapons, remember the game mentions the M16EZ, well for units that were raised later in the war or even after things fell apart, I have included the M16A1 and the M14 and M1 Carbines as well as the old M3 Greasegun being issued in numbers, and yes I have even issued units with M1 Garands with a new barrel to handle the 7.62 Nato round or retaining the 30-06 for use at home in the U.S. since ammo is almost universal.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by jester

I have included the M16A1 and the M14 and M1 Carbines as well as the old M3 Greasegun being issued in numbers, and yes I have even issued units with M1 Garands with a new barrel to handle the 7.62 Nato round or retaining the 30-06 for use at home in the U.S. since ammo is almost universal.

Jester,
I know in the era of Twilight 2000, the US Army armored vehicles (tanks, CEV, M88) had M3 as part of the vehicle issue.

As for modifying the '06 for use to the 7.62 NATO, a rebarreling is NOT necessary. A chamber insert, which can be purchased now for about $10 on open market, or could the last I bothered to look, was all that was needed. When the US switched to the NATO standard that is what they used in Garands. Sliped it in, and it seated on the first round fired. The only physical difference in the rounds is the shorter neck on the NATO round.

Grae

[Brother in Arms]

jester I was thinking along the same lines as you as far as equipping lesser units.
If I was a U.S. soldier I would get my hands on an M14 ASAP. As there would be plenty of M80 ball floating around for MG's.

Both you and grae are correct the M1 can be either rebarreled or have a chamber insert used to convert it from .30-06 to 7.62x51mm. The navy converted many M1's with a chamber insert but eventually found it to be unsatisfactory because the insert would eventually eject out of the chamber with a spent round and you never new when. But it would be a cheap easy T2K solution to ammunition commonality. Eventually the Navy took jesters route and re barreled several thousand M1's before they could receive enough M14's to fill the racks. And for the real clever armorer the M1 can also be modified to accept M14-20 round magazines.

As for the AKM i'm sure it would be prevalent. I prefer it for down range effect to the 5.45X39mm but the 74 certainly is more accurate. I have seen several pictures of Spetnaz troops armed with the older AKM rather than the 74 or its even newer AK-100 series replacements.

I always love a good gun thread.

Brother in Arms

[Matt Wiser]

Most of the Soviets and Poles we ran into had the -74. Most of the militia types (the better-equipped ones) had the AKM or AK-47, but they've done their share of battlefield scavenging. Marauders the same way: the better-equipped ones are the ones whose unit just mutinied, while the smaller fry make do with what they find on the battlefield and was missed in the cleanup by either combatants, locals or whatnot. One of the AF SpecOps people in our group actually preferred the AKM-more stopping power. Hers was a folding stock variant, but she did have an M-4A1 carbine in her Hummer close by.

[Grimace]

Most times I had the Soviets armed with the 74. Every now and then I'd have a unit armed with AKMs, but 8 out of 10 times it was the AK-74 that the PCs were facing.

[ChalkLine]

Another weapon the USSR had stopped using was the DShK and DShKM, both phased out in the seventies.
They brought in the NSU and then the Kord after the fall as the NSU was and is made primarily in Ukraine. So by the twilight war the DShKM was gone from front line units for near on thirty years.

Of course, they built literally millions of them. And. being the USSR, they never threw even one away. They either gave them away or stuck them in dispersed storage in case they needed to do another Great Patriotic War total mobilisation.

Sorry for thread drift, but this storage has never been really addressed. The Russians built enough tanks to totally replace the whole tank inventory of the west every year, with the elderly going into dispersed storage. This was where the old AK-47s went as well, as well as the DPMs and DPShs and all the other goodies. There was and is tens of thousands of unused SKS carbines there, just in case. The storage, as its name suggests, was built in simple earth berm bunkers or caches small enough to be a pain in the arse to strike with strategic weapons, and scattered to survive nuclear strikes. Nothing underlies the Russian claims that their militarism was defensive so much as these caches, as it's useless for an aggressive war.

[Raellus]

For what it's worth, I tend to have 1st line Soviet and Polish units armed with the AK-74 and Tantal (a well made clone) respectively.

Second and third line units are equipped with the AKM. PACT marauder units tend to carry a mix of both.

As a side note, NoCarrier recently pointed out that the Brits were having lots of trouble with the L85 and that no systematic attempt was made to mod/upgrade their stocks until '97, too late for the original T2K timeline. So, in all likelihood, most UK units in '00 would likely be equiped with the "old" 7.62mm L1A1 SLR and Sterling SMGs and/or possibly M-16s and AR-18s (the firing mechanism upon which the L85 was based).

[Brother in Arms]

British Front line troops would probably reluctantly be using L85A1 because they had been issued for years before being revamped in 1997. I would hope for there sake there would be a lot of the old L1A1's in the hands of troops as it is a much better alternative to the L85A1. I'm sure sterlings would still be kicking around as well. The SAS used the M16 extensively especially in the old CAR-15 incarnation. GB also uses the H&K MP5 and G3A3 for special forces.

[ChalkLine]

This assumes the sedate pace of peacetime. It's pretty easy to dither about the vagaries of kit when you're doing peace-keeping, something different when you're trying to reach the USSR border before the Russians can turn around and stomp you.

I'd see the L85A2 arriving in the first year of the war, as well as the G36. The Germans may well deploy the MG4 LMG the year after. The USA would probably get a lot of its newer electronics out faster as well.

Don't forget that the world knew it was sliding towards war, and re-armament was taking place. Keeping RL time lines of issue is in my view unrealistic.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

Sorry for thread drift, but this storage has never been really addressed. The Russians built enough tanks to totally replace the whole tank inventory of the west every year, with the elderly going into dispersed storage. This was where the old AK-47s went as well, as well as the DPMs and DPShs and all the other goodies. There was and is tens of thousands of unused SKS carbines there, just in case. The storage, as its name suggests, was built in simple earth berm bunkers or caches small enough to be a pain in the arse to strike with strategic weapons, and scattered to survive nuclear strikes. Nothing underlies the Russian claims that their militarism was defensive so much as these caches, as it's useless for an aggressive war.

Great point, Chalkline!

To reiterate, the USSR had an unbelievable amount of old weapons stored away. The numbers are hard to pin down on tanks, but a few tidbits: in 1990 for the 45th Anniversary of VE Day the parade featured an entire T-34/85 regiment running through Red Square. For Jason's Soviet Army Guide we're looking at about 62,000 tanks assigned to Soviet units (including 19 Mobilization Only tank divisions) and another 10,500 in war reserve. On the small arms side, here in the US there has been a pretty much non-stop flood of old weapons from Russia into the civilian market since 1992 or so. Mosin Nagants have never stopped coming, the flow of SKSs was heavy but has now stopped, the Tokarev SVT-40s, captured Gewehr41s and 43s likewise came and went and Russian-captured Mausers are still coming in. Makarov, Mosin revolvers and Tokarevs are all coming in too. The PPsH and early model AKs never arrived on the US civilian market due to their full-auto features, but the number (and excellent condition) of WWII-era weaponry is truly staggering. In a T2k context I can easily see all Soviet combat troops having AKs of one type or another (with the troops in Category A units in the Western military districts with the most modern and Mobilization-only troops in the Urals with the oldest), with support troops (truck drivers, depot guards, etc.) and militia in areas near the Soviet borders armed with SKSs, militia inside the USSR with WWII-era weapons like the SVT, Mosin and Mauser.

On the NATO side, keep in mind that the Norwegians used the MG-34 in 8mm through the 1980s, and that the Danish, Greek and Turkish army reserves were issued M-1 Garands in the 1980s. And NATO's newest members in the v1 timeline, Romania and Jugoslavia, also were small arms hoarders on a scale comparable to the USSR. (And as far as old equipment goes, Jugoslav coastal artillery in the late 1980s had some 100-year old guns in service!).

[pmulcahy11b]

In addition to the sorts of things that have been mentioned, I have some weird things operational due to accelerated pre-war development. Some include the F/A-22 (though still called the F-22 in the T2K timeline), the Small-Diameter Bomb, Aurora aircraft, and even a few new fighters based on the X-29 and X-31 programs that in real life never resulted in actual production aircraft. And my personal favorite, the F-16F Scamp.