German III Corps?

[Fusilier]

Hey,

Anyone know if any of the books mention the a detailed location for the German III Corps. Its the other half of German 3rd Army that US 11th Corps was a part of during the 2000 offensive.

German divisions, 6th, 21st, and 29th are all listed as "Northern Poland"... but where?

I'm running a game on RPoL set on the Baltic Coast and was only going by the maps and orbat locations of what is printed. Then I realized the entire other half of the Army is mentioned but not shown.

I can't seem to find more detail in any of the source books. Help or suggestions?

[Graebarde]

One of the modules gave the locations of the divisions, but don't recall which and don't have access to the books ATM, however IIRC the III Ge Korps was to the west of the US corps, mostly NW Poland from the coast south to the river that runs through Poznan, and from the Oder east to the corps dividing line. I'll see if I can comeup with the 'exacts' unless someone else can that has ready access to the info.

Grae

[Marc]

Navigating through the web I've found a nice map that I think it will be useful.
You will find the units of the III German Corps in the Baltic Coast (green stars). No idea about the information sources used to draw it.

http://leonpoifiles.googlepages.com/...ampaignMap.pdf

[Graebarde]

That lone blue star at Kalisz sure stands out bold. Makes you wonder what genius planned that operation?

Grae

[Marc]

I was thinking the same

I've been reading the movements of the 5ht Infantry Division, described in the "Escape from Kalisz" adventure for the campaign we're running. These movements seems to me somewhat strange, if the objective of the offensive was the Baltic Coast. The advance of the 5th ID from the departure position follows the South / South-East direction during more than 150Km! Too far away as for cover the southern flank of the advance, if it is what the genius planner had intended for the 5th. Anyway, the commander of the 5th lead his unit to a good mousetrap showing great gallantry.

For sure the response to "Good luck, you're on your own" could be "Don't worry, better alone than in bad company".

[Snake Eyes]

The 5th was sacrificed as a smokescreen to cover the Reset mission in Lodz.

[Benjamin]

Per "Going Home"

All German divisions seem to have been withdrawn from Polish territory following the failure of Operation Advent Crown, and by the time Operation Omega begins they are all back in their home country.

There are two locations listed for each unit. The special handouts meoked secret have III German Corps in Kiel along with the 29 PD. The 6 PGD is in Stralsund and the 21 PGD is in Neustrelitz. The Danish Jutland Division is said to be in Rostock. This is dated 25th of September 2000.

In Referee's Update section of the supplement (pages 12-18) is said to still be in Kiel with the 29 PD now in Lubeck. 6 PGD is in Hamburg and the 21 PGD is now in Breman cooperating with the evacuation. Jutland Division has returned to Denmark and no longer subordinate to III Corps.

I can't find any canon info as to their locations prior to or doing Advent Crown but I hope this info helps.

Benjamin

[Fusilier]

Thanks fellas. Too bad the the German involvement wasn't detailed for the operation.

[Graebarde]

That's the reason I changed the battle plans for my Operation Fredric. The plan of III Army was to consolidate all the area north of the Warta and west of the Vistula, old Prussia. At the same time they tasked the Yanks to secure the coal fields north of the Warta in the vic. Konin-Kolo area, where the Warta comes from the south and turns west.

The attacks were also prepped with insertion of contact teams. They were hopeful of getting PVA units to turn and drive the Soviets from their country, but alas that wasn't overy successful.

But 5 ID(M) did have a bonified mission, the coal fields. Getting caught by the horde from the east wasn't in the game plan for them however. I had my players as members of a rifle company HQ section (cook, clerk, first sergeant, supply sergeant, medic, mechanic) and stragglers picked up (tank crew from destroyed M1 (they ran out of ammo and fuel) an engineer, a female doctor (whose ambulance hit a mine evacuating critical-injured) and three wounded not hurt badly enough to really deserve the ride in an ambulance.

The 5th was having a fighting withdrawl, but only the elements still north of the Warta. When the pickings got easy, with relatively light resistance, and a lull, the corps commander ordered the division south of the Warta to vic Turek-Uniejow. They were getting pounded and retrograde northwest was ordered. However the Alleycats got spread out far and thin, and cut off SOUTH of the river, then lost communications with higher.

Alas the game came to an end when half the players (RL military) got deployed.

Grae.

[Marc]

I think that your approach to the III Army offensive makes sense. By the way, I like the idea of a group of characters members of an HQ section.

[Fusilier]

Yeah, if I had started this thread before I probably would have made some changes too. I don't think the 5th actions were originally well thought out by the authors and never really liked the Op Reset myself... (nor do I think the original reason for the 5th to be so far south was due to reset... I think they just came up with that later).

One more question. Going home lists the III Corps back in Germany. So at what date do you figure they crossed back over the border? Did they fight it out hoping to keep some ground or just pack up and leave for Germany?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

The 5th was sacrificed as a smokescreen to cover the Reset mission in Lodz.

I see it that way too although I doubt even the highest command echelons of the 5th realised that was the way things were going to go down. I think Colonel Stark had a big hand in that decision (well that is the way I played it in my current campaign anyway).

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

The 5th was sacrificed as a smokescreen to cover the Reset mission in Lodz.

I do not interpret that the paper of the 5th ID as a screening force for "Operation Reset" was premeditated, though in "The Free City of Krakow" it is mentioned that the Special Forces B Team was "masked by the fury of the 5th Division's attack" .

Anyway, not being very comfortable with the Reset device concept, I prefer the kind of explanation proposed by Graebarde. And happily I'm still in time to apply some changes to my campaign setup .

[Legbreaker]

This is an assessment of the German 3rd Army spring offensive, why it was undertaken and how it was that the sudden appearance of the Soviet 4th Guards Army at Lodz was so absolutely disastrous not only to the US 5th ID but to the offensive as a whole.

The 3rd Army, consisting of the German III Corp (6th PGD, 21st PGD, 29th PD, Jutland (Danish) Mechanised Division) and XI US Corp (5th ID, 8th ID, 50th AD, 2nd MARDIV, 4th Canadian Mechanised Brigade and the 116th ACR) were to sweep the Baltic coastline clear of Pact forces. Numbering approximately 30,000 troops and over 185 tanks it was a force more than capable of achieving it's goals, especially when it is considered that no major operations had been conducted in about a year (time in which fuel, food and ammunition was being stockpiled).

At the commencement of the offensive, Pact forces in the area consisted of little more than the remnants of almost all Poland’s military forces (predominately cavalry with mostly 40+ year old tanks). Total Polish strength was barely 20,000 men and 28 tanks. Between them and Czechoslovakia was the might of the Soviet Army - virtually impregnable for the forces of NATO in 2000.

Holding the right flank of the starting position of the offensive was the British army (region of Berlin and Frankfurt). Facing them across well prepared positions was the northern end of the Soviet line. It would have been the British responsibility to hold these Soviet positions with those units already in contact while swinging their reserves up and around behind the 3rd Army to cover their rear. Due to the appearance of the Soviet 4th Guards Army approximately 700km to the east, these units never moved.

The plan was simple enough in concept and should have been almost simpler in execution. XI US Corp was to lead, perhaps due to the usual American desire to be predominant, maybe because they had been resting longer, or perhaps it was as simple as them being in the best position to begin with. For whatever reason, the US 5th ID found itself the spearhead, tasked with making the initial breakthrough and then bearing south in an attempt to outflank and cut supply lines to Soviet forces close to the German border (the same ones facing the British).

Meanwhile amphibious landings were to be made by the 2nd MARDIV across the river estuaries of northern Poland with the 8th ID heading further east to cut lines of any hope of reinforcement from Russia. The 50th Armoured Division was to fill the gap between the 5th and 8th while 116th ACR and Can 4th Mech Bde were held in reserve.

The remainder of the 3rd Army were tasked with filling the gap between the 5th ID and the British forces. They, like the British, had barely reached the start line recently vacated by the US units before the Soviet 4th Guards Army screwed everything up.

The Polish units directly in the path of the juggernaut US XI Corps, simply melted away in the face of far superior technical and numeric forces rather than submitting to the certainty of defeat and destruction. Heading north in good order they entered the area between Gdansk and Slupsk to begin harassing the northern flank of the offensive. Although cut of from the rest of the Pact forces, their supply needs were minimal due to low numbers and high reliance on horses. Food was also plentiful with rich fishing grounds to three sides. With the Polish withdrawal north, XI Corps were forced to commit the 50th AD to hold them in check until the Canadians and 116th ACR could be brought up to assist with eliminating them.

The Canadians and bulk of 116th ACR however had been called upon to assist the British to hold an increasingly restless Soviet Army. The Germans were due to relieve the Canadians and 116th in place within a week, freeing them to join the 50th AD, crush the under equipped Poles and catch up with the remainder of the XI Corp.

The US 2nd MARDIV commenced it’s move by sea to assault the area from the ruins of Gdansk to Elblag escorted by the only US Destroyer still afloat in within five thousand miles, the USS John Hancock. Although the move was successful, valuable equipment was lost when a supporting vessel struck a sea mine and sunk taking nearly 30% of the divisions stores with it. Fortunately almost all the divisions personnel and armour made it to shore, but within a week were running short on fuel. Ammunition expenditure had been minimal due to the absence of any enemy opposition beyond local militias, while food was plentiful in the mainly agricultural floodplains.

Faced with the growing fuel shortage and lack of significant enemy units within the area to raid for more, the divisional commander chose to move westward with the aim of linking up with the 50th AD and lending what support he could against the trapped Poles.

By the middle of July the situation had changed dramatically for the worse. The US 5th ID was about to face annihilation, the 8th had moved far beyond it’s originally intended area chasing fleeing rear area Pact units, the 50th was stalled, holding the Polish forces in place and waiting for the Canadians and 116th ACR to arrive, and the 2nd Marines were virtually immobile but slowly crawling westward. There was nobody who could rescue the beleaguered 5th ID and the last reported position of the 8th was, amazingly, somewhere in western Russia.

As the sudden appearance of the Soviet 4th Guards Army had stirred up the entire European front with pressure being brought to bear everywhere, the 3rd Army commander had no choice but to cut his losses and attempt to consolidate what few gains had been made. The German III Corp was given orders to move into positions supporting British and other German units, but before this order could be carried out, the remaining Polish units not trapped by the US 50th AD or in contact with the remnants of the US 5th ID, began exerting northward pressure around the eastern flank of the Canadians and 116th ACR. Soviet units held in reserve moved northward directly against the Canadians forcing them back towards the coast.

What had initially been conceived as a deep penetration into central Poland via the Baltic coast, followed by right swing to cut off Pact forces had suddenly turned into a gigantic trap for the Americans and Canadians as Pact divisions forced their way towards Szczecin. With the German units already on the road elsewhere the race was on between the Americans and Soviets – if the Soviets reached the coastline first, the entire XI Corps would be cut off.

The 2nd MARDIV made contact with the right (east) flank of the 50th AD just in time. Fuel reserves were transferred and suddenly the marines were mobile once more. The bulk of the 50th ADs fighting force was hurriedly redeployed southward to screen the 2nd Marines move from the much more dangerous Soviets (the marines taking over responsibility for holding the Poles back).

Meanwhile the Canadians and 116th ACR fell back under increasing pressure from combined Soviet and Polish forces, towards the Corp HQ at Karlino, unable to do more than slow the oncoming mass of troops and tanks.

Aftermath
The XI Corp is cut off from friendly forces not so much by the Soviets as by the terrain – the Oder river and numerous interconnected lakes form a water barrier from Szczecin to the Baltic. The Corp is still in contact by sea with Germany, but any move to rejoin allied forces would require an offensive against Pact divisions to the south and east of the irradiated ruins of Szczecin. Some supply is possible by available shipping, but there is not enough capacity remaining after the spring debacle to withdraw even a small part of the Corp. Port facilities are likewise limited with most supplies having to be brought directly onto the beaches by small boat.

[Graebarde]

Good analysis Legbreaker.

[Adm.Lee]

Pretty good. I'd always figured B/116 Cav was the covering force for the Zulu/Reset operation, and they got hung out to dry.

Sending the 8th and 5th MD's so deep always struck me odd, I wonder now if the XI Corps CG was in his right mind? Or was he fooled by the light opposition into grabbing as much territory as he could.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Pretty good. I'd always figured B/116 Cav was the covering force for the Zulu/Reset operation, and they got hung out to dry.

Sending the 8th and 5th MD's so deep always struck me odd, I wonder now if the XI Corps CG was in his right mind? Or was he fooled by the light opposition into grabbing as much territory as he could.

Or perhaps pushed by HIS commanding general, who was a German. But whom ever was at fault, the grunts on the ground were the ones hung out to dry, which is usually the case.

Grae

[Legbreaker]

B Troop of 116th ACR was actually tasked with retreiving the Black Madonna and had nothing to do with Operation Reset. Problem is they never linked up with the person carrying their orders so all they know is they were to meet somebody or group of somebodies in central Poland for further orders....

Although the books state the aim of the offensive was to clear the Baltic coast of Pact forces, the presence of the US 5th in the Lodz area implies a more ambitious objective - that of swinging behind the Soviet lines and potentially cutting their line of supply (minimal as it is in 2000). The very threat alone of encirclment, even partial encirclement would force the Soviet and Polish unit to withdraw at least several hundred kilometres.

Unfortunately, the 4th Guards Army appeared and destroyed the spearhead of the offensive (the US 5th ID) while at the same time, instead of the expected withdrawal, Pact units went on the offensive forcing the units which were to have followed on behind the 5th ID to be committed on the German-Poland border.

In my opinion, the US 8th ID were to have halted and established a defensive line from the vicinity of Kalingrad to Olsztyn, the 50th AD fill between there and west of Warsaw with the 5th took responsibility for the southern section down to around Lodz.

The German III Corps would continue the drive down to (and perhaps through) Czestochowa, with a little luck reaching the mountainous Czech-Poland border. Far reaching and ambitious perhaps, and possibly more than could be achieved, but bearing in mind that the aim may have been to force the withdrawal of Pact forces from Western Poland....

The British, the only other force of significance in Europe, would be called upone to fill between the German III Corps and their own positions in the vicinity of Frankfurt.

I believe, even with the various holes and shortcomings, the above is a reasonable assessment/guess on why the 5th were so far to the south. Why they were allowed by the XI Corps commander, or even German 3rd Army Command to move so far ahead of supporting units is a question for another day.

[Adm.Lee]

Now you've got me thinking of something else. One division, even full strength, couldn't "cut off" much from that deep in the Pact rear. BUT, if there was a single-point to attack, it could do that. What if NATO intel had uncovered tales of a really important supply dump at/near Lodz, and the 5th was tasked to destroy/seize the said items. Same for the 8th?

It didn't have to be a secret, like Reset, but maybe a tale of real petroleum products?

[LAW0306]

The reason 5th division is inside Poland is that the Game designers had to find a way for characters to be cut off and behind the lines. Thats the only Reason. As the DC group has spent many hours looking over every aspect of the Game our best Ideas is. That the Designers were a army centric group Of Vietnam veterians with not alot of access to referance materials.(Ie books and computers). Now that we do have the stuff its easy to point fingers but we should not. They over looked the Navy and Marine Corps because they had no Idea how to use them. Same with the Air force. So we as a group are trying to fix this under the version 1 timeline without destroying the game integrity. So look to the future for the Maritime guide (Navy, Marine and Coast Guard) Vehicle Guide (Air force and Army) and our US Survivors guide. We also are working on in the future a Commonwealth forces Guide.

The largest factor now that I'm having trouble with is the US Navy. With over 750 ships in service or going into service this is more navy in size and power than the next 5 countrys navys combined. They also have a Air arm thats as large as 4 or 5 countrys air forces combined and much more advanced. With almost 20 carrier wings and 3 Marine wings (Over 500 aircraft just with the marines alone) . Its just hard to kill them all.

On 2d Marine Division in Europe. A Marine division never deploys by itself. It Goes as a Corps level unit(II MEF)( Marine Expeditonary Force)With 2d Force service support group and 2d Marine Aircraft wing making up the MEF. This is over 60,000 Marines with 200 some aircraft! So there will be small changes.

And on the marines gaining vehicles. Its historic for this to happen every war we(USMC) have been in we have come out with more either we steal/accuire from our other sister services or from the enemey. Expect 2 MEF to have vehicles from every country in theater.


(All comments posted here are my own and are not the comments of the DC group thoose are only posted by Chico our editor in chief)

[Legbreaker]

One statement covers all the above.

It's 4-5 years into a global war which turned nuclear 2 1/2 years before.

Divisions with a full strength of roughly ten thousand men and several hundred MBTs are now lucky to number a third of that in manpower and are likely to possess barely enough tanks to deploy a short company.

Nuclear weapons are not just targeted at cities. They were also aimed at factory complexes, transportation hubs, mining centres, and I'd be supprised if even agricultural capacity wasn't a factor in some of the larger nukes (even just at assessing the fallout zones). Note also troop concentrations were also targeted regularly with some divisions effectively wiped out.

Why wouldn't warships also be targeted? Some of them have crews numbering in the thousands and they're certainly not spread out the way a division is.

Airfields, even roadways capable of landing aircraft on would also be viable targets once restraint had given way to desperation. The planes themselves might be more than capable while in the air, but if they've got nowhere to land, and nobody left to service them once they're there.....

Supply of essential parts, munitions and fuel has been mentioned on many occasions both by the writers and players/GMs. Take the Krakow helicopter as another example - the machine is in perfect working order, but ammunition supply is limited to little more than it flew in with and fuel amounts to just a few hundred litres - maybe an hour or two of flight time. I'm almost certian theres plenty more aircraft out there, grounded for the very same reasons.

Shorthanded as they are (1000 men) the US 8th ID possesses an OH58, two Blackhawks and an Apache, all grounded (most of the time) by lack of fuel (and parts for at least one of the Blackhawks) but still so valuable as to be dragged around Europe by the Division on trucks.

The 2nd MARDIV likewise possesses at least one CV-22 Osprey based on the USS Tarawa (Plate C1, Nautical/Aviation Handbook). This reference also implies (along with the reference to the USS John Hancock in Going Home) that there is still at least some naval capacity (mostly likely heavily damaged from the aformentioned nukes and conventional attacks) but limited once again by lack of fuel, munitions and spare parts.

With regard to a marine division not deploying alone, the 2nd Marines in the spring offensive certainly did not! They were a part of a MUCH larger operation which involved the forces of at least four countries (the US, Germany, Canada and Denmark - the British possibly as I have written previously) with wide reaching aims. The 2nd Marines were also the only NATO marine force in Europe (besides the 500 strong UK 1st Royal Marine Brigade in Norway) and therefore the only unit capable of fulfilling the task of "launching amphibious assaults against the Polish Baltic Coast and across the estuary of the Vistula".

I would also point out that the divsion, listed on the 1st of July 2000 at a strength of 4000 men, is far stronger than the real life US 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Ma...ditionary_Unit with only approximately 2,200 men. I'm fairly certain there's plenty of support personel amongst the 4000 of the 2nd Marines and as mentioned above, air support is likely to be virtually nonexistant for all sides by that stage of the war. The Osprey above may in fact have been the only operational aircraft of any type within several hundred miles and reserved purely for emergencies (URGENT casualty evacuation for example).

Now the point I think most people tend to forget is units even of divisional size do not act without orders from above. Other divisions within the Corp undoubtably have their own missons, sometimes in support of each other, sometimes seperate, but there is almost always a guiding hand at the Corp or Army level.

Take the Allied operations in Europe in 1944-45. Eisenhower was in overall command of all allied forces with Patton and Montgomery in command of seperate armies consisting of a number of divisions. Breaking it down further and using Operation Market Garden as an example, we see individual divisions, all operating within a relatively narrow corridor, tasked with individual objectives, some of which were acheived, others which were not (the British Airborne at Arnhem springs to mind).

Therefore, I believe the only way possible to justify the presence of the US 5th ID at Lodz is if you take a step back and look at the big picture. Even just stepping back to the Corp level isn't far enough though - it only begins to make sense when you look at the European theatre as a whole and consider that the 5th ID was just the spearhead of a drive designed to force the Pact armies to withdraw and secure their lines of supply and communication (limited as they were by 2000).

Individual objectives such as securing coal fields would be simply a side benefit of the overall offensive.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Shorthanded as they are (1000 men) the US 8th ID possesses an OH58, two Blackhawks and an Apache, all grounded (most of the time) by lack of fuel (and parts for at least one of the Blackhawks) but still so valuable as to be dragged around Europe by the Division on trucks.

The 8th Mechanized, if we are to believe the order of battle, actually has more firepower man per man than a prewar division. I always felt that was insane. I chalked it up to a 60%+ causality rate from a particularly virulent flu after the 2000 assault began. This left the 8th trapped by the volume of equipment they had. I literally spent months trying to build a realistic support structure for the amount of equipment described in the Eastern European sourcebook, to no avail.

I mentioned this in an older thread (unfortunately lost in the great purge before we moved to our new home)

[Legbreaker]

Maybe this oversupply of firepower was one of the reasons the Division was chosen to hald the left flank/conduct deep penetration (depending on how you see the Divisions role within the overall 3rd Army offensive)?

I do believe that 42 M2 Bradleys as stated in the EE book has to be a misprint. 22 might be a more accurate figure, perhaps less, especially as it's stated the infantry component of the division is mainly carried in trucks.

Another factor which may have reduced troop number while keeping equipment levels relatively high is radiation. Perhaps dismounted elements of the division passed too close to a crater?

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Maybe this oversupply of firepower was one of the reasons the Division was chosen to hald the left flank/conduct deep penetration (depending on how you see the Divisions role within the overall 3rd Army offensive)?

I do believe that 42 M2 Bradleys as stated in the EE book has to be a misprint. 22 might be a more accurate figure, perhaps less, especially as it's stated the infantry component of the division is mainly carried in trucks.

Another factor which may have reduced troop number while keeping equipment levels relatively high is radiation. Perhaps dismounted elements of the division passed too close to a crater?

I would also like to think there are 22 Bradleys but the fact that there are 9 M109s and 4 MLRS makes me believe that someone took the total numbers for pieces of equipment for a mechanized division, and divided it by somewhere between 6 and 12 (with helicopters geting divided by a larger factor)

Radiation + Disease might be a good explanation for large human causalities without the corresponding equipment losses.

[LAW0306]

I wont even waste my time trying to talk to you. the things you bring up make no sense..2d marines is a regiment,they belong to 2d marine division a 20,000 man orginisation about 1/3 larger than a army division in RL. The tarawa is a west coast ship another example of the books being wrong. Please dont respond to my threads in the future unless you have your basic facts strait.


and by they way the forces in world war two were divided into divisions,corps and armys. the units at market garden were in a corps and army level battle they all had higher level headquarters..


Platoon
company
Battalion
regiment
Division
Marine expaditionary force (Corps)

[Legbreaker]

Once again, it is you mixing up a GAME with REALITY.

Several years of war has passed. Things change in war. My assessements have been made on what is published in the game materials with some reference to reality.

To begin with, no assessment of T2K situations can be based on what is IRL now but must instead begin from the divergence back in the very early 1990s (91 I believe when the coup occured in Moskow).

Who's to say ships remained where they were assigned almost ten years previously? Who can honestly say a marine division such as the 2nd mentioned in the books, has still got it's prewar paper strength of 20,000 you quoted.

Once again Law, you've shown your inability to suspend disbelief and work within the confines of previously established information. Sure that information may be wrong in relation to reality, but the world of T2K is essentially a paralell universe - you just CAN'T apply the same concepts, unit compositions, histories, etc.

Hell, even the laws of physics have been changed in T2K to reduce the half life of fallout to make the planet livable!

Once again, REAL LIFE FACT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!

[LAW0306]

your right i was talking pre war strenght.... I was talking about that in the post. read all of what i say before you return. ships in the US navy stay on certian areas of the world to perform missions and very raerly change sides . this is due to us being uneven in world war Two and having to do it. once again leg we do battle you have no knowledge or real world or the exp and fight from behind the screen ...a great friend told me last week only fools fight online so i wont. just stay out of my ecr and dont return posts on any of my subject matter usless you have an informed response and have read everything in depth.

[kato13]

Every game is going to end up different. Every GM will pull from whatever sources they feel provides what they need (factual or fictional).

I hope we can all state our opinions and remember that in the end it is just a game.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kato13

Every game is going to end up different. Every GM will pull from whatever sources they feel provides what they need (factual or fictional).

I hope we can all state our opinions and remember that in the end it is just a game.

Exactly my point. It's just a game but one that has certain facts already established, one of which is that "the last major naval fleet in being in the world has been shattered" by June 1997. Surely it can be argued that for any major operation such as the one in Spring 2000, resources would need to be pulled from around the world simply to make it possible, especially as this occured before any nuclear weapons were used further decimating naval forces?

Oh and Law, as you should well know I have a wealth of military experience, probably far more than most. Just because I am not American (and proud of it!) does not make my opinions and knowledge of any less value.

[kato13]

I hope this board remains one where we all can have a choice. Be it Pure canon V1, Enhanced canon V1 (DC working group), V2, T2013, a custom build, or any where in between.

The quote that belongs to my nick's namesake which sums up my opinion of all this is

"Research your own experience, absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, add what is specifically your own."

"Then walk on"