SMG and Shotguns in CQB

[Twilight2000v3MM]

I still think the SMG is the king of CQB just for sheer size, volume of fire, and control. Though some new "PDW" designs seem interesting (the KA PDW and the supper short barrel M-4s/ARs in 5.56 and 6.8 SPC).

But we are traditionally talking pistol caliber SMGs and as someone stated they are limited on range.

Personally I carry a sidearm every day almost 24/7. But in a critcal incident I'm grabbing my M-4 carbine.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Oh... but wait... then there's SMG vs. shotgun in CQB LOL.

[Snake Eyes]

Originally Posted by Twilight2000v3MM

Oh... but wait... then there's SMG vs. shotgun in CQB LOL.

And then we could argue over traditional stocks vs. pistols grips, semi-auto vs. manual action, and slugs vs. all the different kinds of shot. It opens up a whole new world!

In all seriousness, it comes down to picking the right tool for the job, like I said before, but that depends largely on one's contextual interpretation of the job at hand. I'm sure somebody will pipe up if I'm wrong, but all other options being roughly equal, isn't the current preferred military method for securing a structure more along the lines of calling in an airstrike or artillery barrage on it? Only half joking there.

Even in the absence of combined arms support in the post-Twilight War era, a military entry is usually along the lines of "Kill everybody in the room" whereas an entry in a LE context usually gets tied up in preserving various and sundry Constitutional rights of the occupants. Same basic job, vastly differing process. Smack me if I'm too far off base.

The real task is framing the difference in relevant game mechanics over pure roleplaying. If the system you use doesn't make any meaningful distinction between submachinguns, shotguns or assault/battle rifles in CQB then there really is no reason not to use an FAL for every job.

[Brother in Arms]

LOL wow didn't mean to stir up such a controversy.

On the SMG vs. Shotgun debate though i'm sure a shotgun would be good but the tube fed pump action variety doesn't hold very many rounds. other than that it would be pretty sweet indoors using 00 buckshot or even better #4 buck shot which has 27 .240 pellets.

I think Grenades would be one of my weapons of choice for CQB. I wouldn't concerrn myself much with no-combatants. I think Assault rifles, SMG, Shotguns and Pistols would all be useful in different scenarios. A Battle rifle could be too, if penetration is what you need. Depends on what kind of building you are in. I was in an old woolen mill in Portland Maine, The rooms where very large and had long hall ways. There where large windows on the outer brick walls allowing a lot of light to enter but dark unlit corridors. I was imagining the building cratered from artillery fire dark with rain comingit.....And running around in there with an AK having a fire fight. But it was so large an open you could have easily carried a LMG.

Brother in Arms

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

On the SMG vs. Shotgun debate though i'm sure a shotgun would be good but the tube fed pump action variety doesn't hold very many rounds. other than that it would be pretty sweet indoors using 00 buckshot or even better #4 buck shot which has 27 .240 pellets.

Shotguns (and tactical buckshot, beehive, Claymores) are weapons I've never felt were well handled by the T2K rules. A shotgun's effects can really vary by bore, load, barrel length, and the choke of the shotgun. The choke problem has really made me nuts in the past, and I basically gave up on it. Same with the load.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

On the SMG vs. Shotgun debate though i'm sure a shotgun would be good but the tube fed pump action variety doesn't hold very many rounds.

While it's true that a shotgun doesn't hold as many shells as a SMG, an 8+1 shotgun with buckshot has more projectiles loaded than almost any SMG. 000 buckshot is 9.1mm and a couple of shells has about as many pellets as a typical 1-second burst from a SMG.

The two main limitations of the shotgun compared to the SMG is shorter range (round pellets lose velocity faster than modern bullets) and higher recoil (although it's my understanding that semiauto shotguns have less kick than pump or breechloading shotguns). With a detachable box magazine there there isn't a slow reload problem.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

copeab,

Correct on range but you also have slugs ;-). Slugs are effective and lethal easily to 75-100 meters. A 1-oz slug may lose velocity but when it hits you at that range .. OUCH!!! The only thing with slugs is that to be truly effective at that range you need good sights for accuracy. A 9mm round fired from an SMG (typically with a 8 to 10" barrel) will lose a lot of energy at 100m.

[Brother in Arms]

Gents these are all good points about SMG's and shotguns. In away at least for CQB I don't think either is an issue....penetration either for a SMG or Shotgun isn't anything to worry about. Range isn't an issue either Its true that Shotguns have as many or more projectiles than an SMG burst but doing a Mad minute with a shotgun is more difficult that with an SMG, not because of speed but recoil, shotguns have a fair amount of recoil...also The reason I mentioned the Pump shotgun is the prevalence of them in a T2k Setting. There are several semi-auto shotguns available as well, but few that use detachable mags though several where developed in the 1980's and 90's. Most of those firearms where never really common and only a few newer box fed semi-auto shotguns Like the Saiga-12 have become common in recent years.

If you look at the shotguns of the U.S military it wasn't until 1998 (realworld) that the US military adopted the Benelli 1014 and while semi auto, is still tube fed. Before that they had a used a huge mixture of pump shotguns from various commercial manufacturers, though in ww2 they did purchase the semi-auto remington model 11 which was a copy of the browning A5.

Maybe this thread should be changed to SMG and Shotguns in CQB

Brother in Arms

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Twilight2000v3MM

copeab,

Correct on range but you also have slugs ;-).

Not just slugs. You also have a lot of special purpose rounds for the shotgun (of varying practicality) that aren't available for SMGs.

(And yes, there are 9mm shotshells ...)

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Oh Im just commenting and broadening our knowledge. Everyone has good points. I think a well balanced entry team is the way to go. Both have their pros and cons. This is definitely a good discussion and its great to get everyones inputs!!

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

Gents these are all good points about SMG's and shotguns. In away at least for CQB I don't think either is an issue....penetration either for a SMG or Shotgun isn't anything to worry about. Range isn't an issue either Its true that Shotguns have as many or more projectiles than an SMG burst but doing a Mad minute with a shotgun is more difficult that with an SMG, not because of speed but recoil, shotguns have a fair amount of recoil...also The reason I mentioned the Pump shotgun is the prevalence of them in a T2k Setting. There are several semi-auto shotguns available as well, but few that use detachable mags though several where developed in the 1980's and 90's. Most of those firearms where never really common and only a few newer box fed semi-auto shotguns Like the Saiga-12 have become common in recent years.

If you look at the shotguns of the U.S military it wasn't until 1998 (realworld) that the US military adopted the Benelli 1014 and while semi auto, is still tube fed. Before that they had a used a huge mixture of pump shotguns from various commercial manufacturers, though in ww2 they did purchase the semi-auto remington model 11 which was a copy of the browning A5.

Maybe this thread should be changed to SMG and Shotguns in CQB

Brother in Arms

[Badbru]

I like pump action shotguns for close work in games due to the last round loaded is the next chambered to fire situation. Any lull in the fighting and you can adapt ammo to the changing needs. Room clearing - buckshot, covering the house across the street or down the road - slugs. With an smg or even assault carbine or rifle reloading a fresh mag is usually just going to be, more of the same. That's ok too if more of the same is all you need I guess.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by copeab

The two main limitations of the shotgun compared to the SMG is shorter range (round pellets lose velocity faster than modern bullets) and higher recoil (although it's my understanding that semiauto shotguns have less kick than pump or breechloading shotguns). With a detachable box magazine there there isn't a slow reload problem.

In my admittedly limited experience, your understanding of the recoil issue is dead on. Recoil is highly subjective, but I don't find a Saiga 12 to have any more than an AK.

Originally Posted by copeab

Not just slugs. You also have a lot of special purpose rounds for the shotgun (of varying practicality) that aren't available for SMGs.

How many of those will feed reliably in semi-autos, though? Not a rhetorical question - I have no firsthand experience with the specialized stuff, but I keep seeing posts on various gun and cop boards about the beanbag and gas rounds not having high enough pressure to cycle semi-auto gas systems (and likewise recoil for the recoil-operated designs).

Originally Posted by Badbru

I like pump action shotguns for close work in games due to the last round loaded is the next chambered to fire situation. Any lull in the fighting and you can adapt ammo to the changing needs. Room clearing - buckshot, covering the house across the street or down the road - slugs. With an smg or even assault carbine or rifle reloading a fresh mag is usually just going to be, more of the same. That's ok too if more of the same is all you need I guess.

You can get the same slug select with a shotgun with a detachable magazine, though. Best of both worlds. Though 12 gauge mags are frickin' bulky. Just by eyeballing it, I'd say you can fit three 30-round AK magazines into the same volume (read: vest space) occupied by two 8-round shotgun mags.

- C.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by copeab

(And yes, there are 9mm shotshells ...)

To give them a bad case of achne if at extremely close range. Of course #6 shot for 'home defense' is what I have loaded in the double. At the range of 20 feet they (doctor's if the scum bag survives) will pick shot for a LONG time. A head shot will possibly take the whole face and the sucker is blind. At the very least it will ruin his whole day. The reload is 00-buck though.

Hell if there's time to think, crotch shot with #6 sounds interesting for the AH too. But given circumstances for 'normal' B&E center of mass is the probable call and at 20' there's not much spread even from a 20" barrel with NO choke.

Grae
"Constable I warned 'em to leave when he had the chance and he still came at me. Then tried to come again. Well he won't be comin' no more."

[Twilight2000v3MM]

[QUOTE=Tegyrius]

How many of those will feed reliably in semi-autos, though? Not a rhetorical question - I have no firsthand experience with the specialized stuff, but I keep seeing posts on various gun and cop boards about the beanbag and gas rounds not having high enough pressure to cycle semi-auto gas systems (and likewise recoil for the recoil-operated designs).


Thats the problem with semi-autos. Im sure Justin would probably know more than I but my experience with the specialist rounds is that they will fire but they are sensative in the gas operated shotguns. That is why most PDs who use shotguns still have pump actions like 870s (thats like the GLOCK of shotguns). SWAT/SRT teams have semi's (I wanna say that 90%+ are probably Benelli's) in the inventory but I wanna say most are used as breaching and less-than-lethal (bean bag, tear gas, and the new X26 taser-type round) these days with the advent of the M-4 coming more and more in as the utility gun of the day.


I don't think the shotgun has seen its days because they are a great tool for breeching and room clearing (and for survival). But if I really wanted to use a less than lethal at more than 15 meters... gimme a 37mm/40mm beanbag ... now THAT will leave a mark LOL!!!

[JimmyRay73]

I'd like to preface my comments by stating that my real world range time is a bit spotty, but I'll say that few things in life are more enjoyable than ripping through several boxes of 12ga shells with a nice pump action. Sure, recoil can be an issue but with a little practice it can be controlled to a pretty good extent usually. In my younger days I was able to hold a Remington 870 on target while rapid-cycling 3" Magnum rifled slugs, and I think I tipped the scales at about 140 then. Practice helped, and so did adrenaline, although my right shoulder was usually black and blue afterwards...

I actually preferred a well broken in Winchester that another friend had, as opposed to the first guy's Remington, and I've fired a few Mossbergs that felt nice over the years too. I'd love to get my hands on one of those Stoeger pump actions I saw reviewed a few years ago too, with the "bullpup" top feed design and selectable separate tubes.

I also find it hard to fault pump action feed mechanisms, they've worked reliably for well over a century, so if I have to do home defense or room clearing that sort of reliability is a plus for me.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by JimmyRay73

I also find it hard to fault pump action feed mechanisms, they've worked reliably for well over a century, so if I have to do home defense or room clearing that sort of reliability is a plus for me.

You have a good point there.

[Brother in Arms]

Hey everyone I thought i would add to my post about US shotguns I had typed much more information but I timed out the site typing about them and lost it when I posted so I thought I would give a little more information on US shotguns...I found my training manual TM-9-285 from 1942 and it lists these shotguns and shows there disassembly and care.

M97 Winchester
M12 Winchester
M10 remington
M11 Remington
M31 Remington
M520 Stevens
M620A Stevens
M720 Savage
M37 Ithaca (my favorite)

Vietnam era they added few more.
M870 Remington
M67 Savage
M77 sevens
M1200 Winchester

There where several other commercial shotguns used in Vietnam as many of these where no longer in service by then however there are several photos of soldiers carrying M1897 trench guns in RVN....they are just a rock solid design.

CHeers

Brother in Arms