China's Carrier Killer

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by jester

There is another option.

Playing on the vastness of China, and the diverse ethnic groups, many who are persecuted and disenfranchised with Bejin.

Not false but not entirely true either. These disatisfied groups will be mainly Tibetans and Ouighours. Then, unrest will occur mainly in western china. I'm not sure it would last long. With China not needing to show a kind face to the world, it could rely on genocide with little regret and end it quite fast.

About economical unrest, it could indeed be a problem for China but it will entirely depend on their political choices. If the West stop buying goods in China, China simply has to switch it's economy to fuel its domestic market.

[jester]

Mo;

China is having alot of small seperatists groups in the West, and some muslim terrorist activity too. Granted the Chinese would be too bashful about moving into India or Pakistan or other countries to deal with the folks giving them a hard time, but that could be politicaly damaging, as well as bringing the force of the country they just invaded.

As for China and Comerce, I was actauly thinking stopping major commerce ie, raw materials comming in and manufactured goods going out by means of submarine, air, surface ships and anti shipping missiles.

And of course with Chinas raising unemployed ranks of low and no skilled workers, well alot of dissatisfaction can be fostered. Cripple them economicaly, hit them with several small militant groups and back one or two or three of the larger revolutionary groups again encourafging their displeasure with Bejin.

[Mohoender]

Jester

I like your ideas and see them as perfectly plausible. However, depending on the level of isolation for China, it can be extremely different.

If Russia doesn't close commercial relations with China, things can turn a very different way. The groups you are talking about can start to have a very had time.

Commercialy, the situation can become more complex. Russia can provide China with more than enough raw materials in exchange for a wide variety of industrial goods (what Russia lacks). Then, with enough raw materials to keep its industry working, China could not face so much unrest and under wise leadership, it can chose to turn to its own population to sell a majority of its products.

Then, I don't think that western economy would collapse (also it could). It would, however, face a crisis that could be very long and damaging and need time to recover. As we just seen, stock exchange can make the entire western world go down and we have done very little (to these days) to correct this.

[jester]

Oh, I do not advocate that any of those ideas by themselves would cause them terrible harm. But,with all of them combined it would. What I am more working with, is the idea of causing them rebelling within their boarders. <It already exists the further one gets from Bejin.>

As for them turning inward for inner markets, true, but then again, this is what I see with China today. A vast chasm between the rich who live lives of luxury. And the poor who still live in the countryside who don't even have electricity. It exists! And yes they had a growning middle class of the skilled labor, but these folks are now suffering as a result of the worlds economic crisis because China put most of its domestic energy into industrialization and manufacturing.

And, I just do not see Russia being as big a market for China alone that it will keep them from going bankrupt if a blockade were to be put in place. And N. Korea and Cuba wouldn't do it either. They would of course turn to the 3rd World. But, if a blockade were to be made of China then assuming Russia were on freindly terms, they could transit through Russia, into the Baltic and Black Sea ports and Arctic, but those ports are all landlocked with limited access and you would have to travel the expanse of Asia and Europe to get them to market. But, they could find markets in the 3rd World, some Asian, Africa for sure and some S. American. And I do not doubt that many European and other nations would stab the US in the back and conduct under the table trade deals with China much like they have with Iran, Iraq and A-Stan. <In my view those nations could do with a little thermo nuclear renovations.>

And another aspect is, how much does China have invested in the US and areas that are within the US's sphere of influence? All of those assets and facilities get siezed immediatly and used for the war effort <thus they are eliminated as a bargaining chip or reparation once hostilities are ended.>

[Mohoender]

And I like the idea of a nice scenario coming out of this. Don't advocate myself. I'll include some of our thinking to my homegrown t2k.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

And I like the idea of a nice scenario coming out of this. Don't advocate myself. I'll include some of our thinking to my homegrown t2k.

It seems this is more a T2K13 thing than a T2K thing, though.

[jester]

Heck, I've written several scenarios. In my home rules timeline I had China acting the oportunist and jumping in a landgrab of Taiwan while the US was buising fighting in the Middle East and Europe and their fleets scattered across the glob or on the bottom of the ocean or down for lack of spares.

I even came up with an idea of a couple Chinese variants of Division de Cuba, and well, similiar ideas that have been put in the 2013 variant....things, ideas I posted back in 01 hmmmmm

I incorportated Chinise infiltrations into the coastal cities China towns, operations on the former Long Beach Naval Station <leased to the Chinese under Clinton> several container ships with Chinese troops and supplies landing, and siezing the port areas coupled with the sleepers in the Chinatowns, and thus paralyzing the ports and logistics system of the Pacific Coast of N. America.

Further, I let the deal with the Chinese and Panama Canal go through so there is a presence there as well.


I also wrote another scenario years ago about a US/Free Chinese/Taiwanese landing on mainland China.

A token force of US forces, with Taiwanese, Ex Pat Chinese from N. America and the Commonwealth nationes, making up a few brigades, A division or two of Taiwanese, and a Free China Army, as I have China in a multiple party civil war, much like a great deal of their modern history. A force going through the countryside liberating them, which is for psychological purposes, to the people back home, to the enemy Chinese that they are not beyond being invaded, and to the FREE CHINA forces and the population that there is a force outside who will support them in ousting the communist regime. <Of course these people will have been prepared prior with propoganda, agents and SF types wooing the locals over to the NATO cause.> I even made a Kalisz type scenario with that one.

Then another scenario was full on commando operation. The PCs mission to go in and with other teams, make their way to the great damn they built and blow it. A little bit of Force 10 From Navarone, but I also had some ideas from Operation Eagle Claw, the rescue attempt by Delta Force to rescue the embassy personel in Iran. that would be an awesome game to play would it not? Get in, get to the locatiom, conduct the mission? Or not, and then if you are able make your getaway, all across one of the largest nations in the world after you <if you were successful> have devestated an entire region.

So, yeah, I have come up with a few ideas over the years.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by jester

<snip> and well, similiar ideas that have been put in the 2013 variant....things, ideas I posted back in 01 hmmmmm
<snip>

So now we're intellectual property thieves, too? Hellooooo....T2K13 Design Team member in the room....

[Webstral]

I think it's safe to say that a new carrier-killing missile, regardless of how well it works, must be put into a context in which neither the United States or China have much to gain from either a new cold war or a hot war. The Chinese, being students of history, clearly have concluded that a) peace is better than war, and b) maintaining the peace requires multiple methods and assets.

Webstral

[jester]

Originally Posted by Eddie

So now we're intellectual property thieves, too? Hellooooo....T2K13 Design Team member in the room....

Eddie, did you not see the emotocon? It was ment as a joke.

The idea is not unplausible, and the concept of simultainious ideas is pretty damn common. The whole China is pretty obvious as they are the rising player attempting to take Ivans place in the world stage so they fit the bill as a good antagonist, coupled with some of their actions and expansions the last two decades. Its almost a natural conclusion for folks with an idea of history which this group has in spades. Heck, a glaring example is the whole remake of Red Dawn with the Chicoms replacing Ivan.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by jester

Eddie, did you not see the emotocon? It was ment as a joke.

I know.

So you're saying I didn't have you at "Hellooooo..."?

[Cdnwolf]

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hti.../20130424.aspx

[Raellus]

I think that I posted a thread on this a year or two ago. If I can find it, I'll merge them.

EDIT: Merged.

[Cdnwolf]

Oops didn't see it before... but now they have updated and tested the missile and the USN is starting on a missile defence against it.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

Oops didn't see it before... but now they have updated and tested the missile and the USN is starting on a missile defence against it.

No problem. Thanks for posting the update.