Cadillac Gage Vehilces

[kalos72]

So I am seeing alot of their descriptions say they were adopted by the Army, but I see no TOE's for them or even have them as options.

Anyone have any ideas there? My players are looking for a LAV-300 APC but I dont have a clue where they fit into a standard ORBAT.

[Matt Wiser]

According to the U.S. Army Vehicle Guide, the U.S. put a hold on arms sales to overseas customers and impressed the vehicles (and aircraft, no doubt) for the U.S. military. A tank battalion in 8th ID (4-34 Armor) was reequipped with Stingrays in late '97, pre TDM, and other Cadillac-Gage vehicles were also shipped to Europe to replace losses. A likely unit to have a lot of such vehicles is the 278th ACR, which lost a lot of equipment to Soviet subs when they deployed, and likely reequipped with Cadillac-Gage vehicles, among others.

[kalos72]

I saw that bout the Stingrays, but didnt connect the two. So units that are in the US for the war might be re-fitted with this stuff to then?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by kalos72

So units that are in the US for the war might be re-fitted with this stuff to then?

Definitely a possibility IMO. As things got increasingly desperate you'd even see civilian vehicles such as cash-in-transit armored cars being pressed into service as troop transports and gun trucks.

[HorseSoldier]

More agreement on that idea. As things go pear shaped in Europe, I'd think that even the strategic reserve units in CONUS probably got raided for both personnel and AFVs. I could see deficiencies in Bradleys, 113s, and other vehicles that got shipped to Europe, the Middle East, or Korea made up for with stuff like Cadillac Gage wheeled light armor (and the later use of armored cars, as was mentioned). I'd guess that the late war USAR light infantry divisions would be pretty happy to scarf up any armored cars they could find to give them a little more maneuver and punch capability.

Another place they may have been on the books in the MTOE that GDW doesn't go into is with MP units, where Cadillac Gage armored cars have been used a bunch through the years, even if they were never universally used to equip all MP units.

[copeab]

I'll add that over the last few decades, light armored cars have been purchased by many major cities, primarily for SWAT operations. While not numerous, I imagine those surviving would be impressed into military service, first for security patrols and, as things continued to deteriorate, front-line combat vehicles.

[rcaf_777]

Ok

this has been talked about for some time, I found this doc which talk about tank production is was produced in 1993, it also list the current (1993) tank levels for M1 Abrams and the M60, it also names factories that make the tank parts and breaks tank production down by state

hope it help

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/75xx/doc7522/93doc04.pdf

[Webstral]

I don't believe a TO&E would be created specifically for CG vehicles. The CG vehicles probably owuld be used as replacements for vehicles in an existing TO&E.

Webstral

[kalos72]

I should have said that I saw no TOE's that included them...

Where would the Army store vehicles like the LAV's for replacement? Is there a list of sites or something?

[nuke11]

The Department of Energy uses a few different models of CG vehicles. V-150 and Ranger Peacekeeper for protection duties.

The US Air Force Security units that protect the nuclear silo's also use (used) the V-150 and Ranger Peacekeeper for security details.

I believe there are (where) a number of the Ranger Peacekeepers in the UK at the USAF bases.

[rcaf_777]

Here something I found from the Ranger wikipedia entry

"Rangers/Peacekeepers were produced in the early 1980s on a shortened Dodge 200 or Dodge Ram pickup truck chassis, the same chassis as the CUCV"

wonder how many CUVC the guard had and how were in storage, could these be rebuilt as rangers, I mean you alreay have the chassis which alot of the work done, I could totally see the USAF requesting that more be rebulit used the CUCV in storage, the army might want too for MP and Guard after the strip them of there vehciles

[Webstral]

The vehicle guides tend not to list anything lighter than an LAV-75 by name. Therefore, almost anything lighter could be worked into the TO&E with a little imagination. CG vehicles were distributed as replacements for other AFV in CONUS and overseas. Once they arrived in-theater, the CG replacement vehicles would be subject to the same vagaries of chance as any other vehicle. In short, one could justify the presence of a single light AFV almost anywhere.

Webstral

[kalos72]

With the power plant and SWAT ideas then this shouldn't be a problem to justify in game.

Thanks for the help all.

[Raellus]

The U.S. Army Vehicle Guide (v1) has two color plate illustrations of wheeled LAVs: the Cadillac Gage V-350 and the Peacekeeper armored car. Both were assigned to the 278th ACR. Both, I believe, were originally USAF security vehicles although the plate description for the V-350 says Army MP units used them as well.

So, as Web said earlier, one could justify wheeled LAVs (besides the fairly ubiquitous LAV-25) in just about any army unit anywhere during the war.

[Abbott Shaull]

Like was said before there would be no official TO&E for many of these vehicle that would be 'seconded' from other source. They would be used much the same way in lot of units in the DoD that use SUV's and Trucks in roles that HMMWVs were suppose to fill. The CG vehicle would be placed into in units as replacements. The LAV-25, LAV-75, and other such units depending if you use them or not would be used mainly as fill on the as needed basis. Lot of times this would be done to keep units in somewhat combat ready condition, and the time it would take to convert an infantry, armor, or cavalry unit for a total conversion of a new TO&E.

Like stated in another thread, units would adapt vehicles.

Also some of the Modules in the US hit upon the Armor Cars that are used to transfer money that have been converted for new use too.

Remember by 1998 their would be capture vehicle that the allies had decide to split as war captures. As many of these vehicle weren't going anywhere, some Army, Corps, Divisional, and Regimental/Brigade Commanders would be asking if these vehicles could be re-furbished and made ready for use by their units as things drag into 1999 and into 2000. Of course there would be the fear of the unit operating these vehicle of friendly fire, but they would try to operate in more secure areas where all friendly knew their was possibility that lone platoon of mix Pact vehicle maybe friendly. Of course, this would make Soviet Special Forces slipping in and out much more easier, but I am sure the Pact would be doing the same thing in their rear areas of capture NATO equipment. You wouldn't place the unit too near the front trace since if they were captured by other side, the troops could basically executed as spies.

Remember the US vehicle module only gave numbers of AFVs and such vehicle like M1s, CEVs, and LAV-75 and aviation assets of the 101st AAD and 6th ACCB. The rest was up to the imagination of the GM to pick and choose. They did the same basic idea of the Soviet vehicle guide and I am sure they did much the same in similar publication. The only units they got specific about were units one found in various modules and even then it depended on how the units role they play in how much information GWD would give. Two examples would be the details of the 8th Polish MRD (Krakow ORMO) and the 14th MRD too the west of them in southern Poland where they played a large role. With all other Pact units and many of the NATO we don't get much hints on any organization or given they do ad hoc organization. Then you go to Going Home, it doesn't give much information on various organization of a German or UK Division except that they are their and troop levels. As well as brief description of the French III Corps and details of Mechanized Platoon and Airmobile Platoon/Reactionary Force.

One of the thing I would do if you own several module, look at the military organization and militias that they give you both generic and detail information on organization other than troop number and AFV total. Use the various units as templates that you can mix and match as needed. Black Mondonna, Free City of Krakow, the Warsaw one, Armies of the Night, the module in southern Florida, Lone Star/Red Star, Going Home, the three updated modules based in Poland if you didn't catch the boat, the modules for Iran/resource guide, and the vehicle and weapon manuals all have plenty of information where you can have Base for units before the war, and then how they look after several years of war or newly raised militias.

There was a version of the 5th Mechanized Division that had been reformed and organization of the XI US Corps have floated around too. Also look up some historical TO&Es from WWII. There plenty of information for the US, UK, and German that are accurate enough for your purposes, as well looks at how the Soviet Army change from it organization in 1940-41sh to how morphed into by 1945 and the changes that were made from then into 1950s as the cold war started. Also look up the US Army when 1950-1960s when they went from Regimental Combat Teams to 5 Combat Groups and then (back) to Brigade (Combat Teams), which if they were Light/Airborne were like the older Regimental Combat Team based Division and the Mechanized/Armor were beefed up Heavy Armor Divisions from WWII (2nd and 3rd Armored Divisions). Also look at the Light Armor Division organization which all other Armor Division were based on, look at the US Army Mechanized/Armor Division under the Unit of Action concept.

Yes it lot of material to go over, but does give you a good overall view.

[kalos72]

Good post Abbott, thats about the thinking I came up with after going through these posts.

Does anyone know where vehicles would be stored for later use? Like when a unit goes overseas and leaves it heavy equipment behind, where doe that equipment go to be stored? Or all the surplus vehicles that are no longer in use, where are those stored?

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Good post Abbott, thats about the thinking I came up with after going through these posts.

Does anyone know where vehicles would be stored for later use? Like when a unit goes overseas and leaves it heavy equipment behind, where doe that equipment go to be stored? Or all the surplus vehicles that are no longer in use, where are those stored?

Lot of the equipment of the Division state side was used to help bring incoming National Guard and Reserve up to strength. What was left over after that was used to help train said units and used after that to train next upcoming units and given to them...and so on...Some of the units according to the Vehicle guide still had M60 and M113 units. So the first National Guard Divisions and Round-Out units I am sure would be trained on the M1 and M2, with the round-out rather than round-out brigade taking their M60 and M113 as one of many option when the game was published.

In fact, shortly after the game was release many of the Round-out heavy brigade were in various stages of conversion, while units like the 197th Mechanized Brigade later reflagged the 3-24th Mechanized and later the 3-3rd Brigade still had M113 in their Infantry Battalions at the time they deployed to the middle east to bring the 24th Mechanized up to full strength. Once in Saudi the Brigade equipment was completely updated to more modern system.

There is article in one of the threads about why the Round-out Brigades didn't make it to battle and how some they had more training at the same time when some NG units were undergoing the same conversion training and was a mute point why the NG units weren't performing as well as their counterparts in the 197th Brigade.