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#31
10-26-2010, 08:38 AM
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As far as I remember some of the close obs platoons used M16's over here, and IIRC the M16 was issued to certain units in Newry after an overpenetration incident when a squaddie with an SLR returned fire on a provie gunman and shot straight through the walls of a house and nearly hit a civilian. I'm unsure why this was deemed a particular problem in Newry as opposed to Belfast, Stroke sity or any other urban area.
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Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird. 
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#32
10-26-2010, 10:40 AM
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Thanks for the replies people; I would have responded earlier but RL raised its ugly head.
@StainlessSteelCynic Small arms did slip my mind, I'll rectify that in the next draft. I left out the 25pdr deliberately as my major source for that - Encyclopedia of the British Army 3rd Edition by Terry Gander 1986 - mentions that the 25pdr would soon be withdrawn due to diminishing ammo supplies, more having to be ordered from India or other country using it. I had no idea that the ammo was being produced in Britain. I'd be very grateful if you could share your info on that.
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#34
10-26-2010, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honoura...illery_Company
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#35
10-26-2010, 11:01 PM
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Diemaco is an interesting story. Both new and licenced weapons (SA-80, AUSTEYR-88) seem to have considerable teething difficulties; Diemaco took a design and within a decade had made improvements on the original so much that more C7s-C8s were sold to more foreign governments than the M16/M4 designs, and in more versions. In a move that is neither surprising nor ironic, Colt acquired Diemaco and it is now known as "Colt Canada". There were rumours in the 90's that the Diemaco C7 and C8 would replace the L85A1, but for many reasons this didn't come about. For one thing, a lot of time and money had been sunk into the SA-80. Also, the idea might have been to run out the clock until the next generation infantry weapon was developed, likely an OICW-type system. In the T2K timeline, it's possible that after being adopted by special units in the 90's, the L119A1 would become more widespread in British units due to quality and availability, at least as a stopgap while the L85A2 is developed and deployed. Tony
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#36
10-26-2010, 11:13 PM
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I can't say any of the early model F88 Austeyrs I was issued had any teething problems. All worked well without faults.
The only thing I could say about it is that the bolt hold open device (a simple slot for cocking handle) didn't exactly instill a lot of confidence in the user after handling the L1A1. It seemed too easy to accidentally knock it, allowing the bolt to fly forward and chamber a round (or potentially trapping a finger in the chamber while conducing night time safety checks).
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#37
10-26-2010, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
__________________
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
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#38
10-26-2010, 11:59 PM
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Having used both weapons, I have to say the catch on the M16 is definately the flimsier. At least with the F88 you can keep your hand in a position that will block the cocking handle if it does dislodge itself (just don't let any instructors see your hand anywhere near it).
It seems strange that with the L1A1 SOP was that you engaged the hold open device, yet kept your hand on the cocking handle (in case the catch failed), but with the Steyr you got in serious shit for doing exactly the same thing. 
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#39
10-27-2010, 03:18 AM
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There's some more info on them here (not all of this would be correct in a T2K timeline). http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Honourab...illery_Company Cheers Dave
__________________
Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom
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#40
10-27-2010, 04:33 AM
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A couple of the NCOs I was talking to on the range were of the opinion that the L119 was no more reliable than an L85A2, but offered the advantages of being able to be fired from the left shoulder, being not obviously British (plenty of people use Diemacos, whilst the L85 is rather distinctively ours), and most important of all, being different from the rest of the forces, which they admitted was part of the draw of being SF.
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#41
10-27-2010, 05:54 AM
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I could see this, the main advantage of the C8/L119A1 is that it was a proven design that was available immediately as a replacement for the L85A1, not that it was more reliable (once the SA80's kinks were worked out). Leg, I'm not going to get into the concerns with the early AUGs, as these mainly exaggerations and the AUSteyr does not belong on a "worst weapons" list. (There were a few changes that did improve things drastically but the design was sound.) Personally, I'd have been fine if Canada chose the AUG over the AR-15, but there it is. Tony
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#42
10-27-2010, 07:19 PM
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Personally I'd have been happy if they kept the 7.62N L1A1 instead of the 5.56 F88, but that's just me and my desire to see a target obliterated rather than tickled to death....
 I do like the ergonomices of the F88 a bit more though as it's much easier to use on handed than just about any other weapon I've every laid my greasy fingers on. Some say it's an uncomfortable weapon to use, but I think that's mainly because it's a bullpup and nothing is where you'd expect it to be on a conventional weapon. Adequate training fixes that. It's also one of the easiest weapons to carry on patrol because of it's centre of balance being right at the pistol grip. It's only other drawback, at least in the earlier versions, was it's inability to fit a GL or alternate sights and accessories (this wasn't much of an issue at the time though as VERY few accessories were available, let alone issued).
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#43
10-27-2010, 08:08 PM
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I've never fired a bullpup weapon, so...how does a bullpup compare to a conventional rifle? And has anyone here used one in combat?
__________________
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
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#44
10-27-2010, 08:18 PM
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You would have a lot of agreement from members of the Canadian Forces (Reg Force and militia) who transitioned from the 7.62x51mm FN C1A1/C2A1 to the 5.56x45mm C7/C8. There is still a lot of nostalgia for the old "FN". Tony
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#45
10-27-2010, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
__________________
 "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#46
10-27-2010, 08:42 PM
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Fortunatley I avoided combat, but I've trained intensively with the L1A1, M16A1, F88 and M60 (plus a few other less relevant systems). I'd have to say that I like the L1A1 for it's hitting power and solid contruction (now there's a weapon you can really smack somebody about with!), and the M60 is definately my favourite (what's not to like about a belt fed machinegun?), but for general patrolling and assault, the Steyr is the better weapon (note I'm ignoring the M16).
In it's base form (without accessories) it's perfectly balanced as I've already indicated around the pistol grip. It can be fired accurately one handed (although I'd advise tucking the stock into the shoulder anyway) which leaves the off hand to do other tasks such as open doors, carry equipment, etc. The 30 round mags are ok, certainly better than the 20 rounds of the L1A1, and the weapon of course is capable of automatic fire. It is however not suited to automatic due to it's light weight - still, it's a good option to have for close range "panic" fire.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#47
10-28-2010, 12:25 AM
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The L1A1 was a good weapon, one of the downsides of the new L85 is that it has a plastic butt, which is relevant to this:
During one of the numerous riots that happened in Northern Ireland in around 1982 my father was involved in a bit of defending, well... during said riot he got a hurling ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurling ) stick though this plexi-glass riot helmet shield, left him with a good cut above his left eye. Now, being sensible the army sent him to hospital to get patched up, except someone forgot to remove his ammo, so under SOP, no anaesthetic, which meant my father had 5 stitches with no pain relief. So when he got discharged some bright spark passed him a new helmet and told him to get back to the fight. To the day my father died, he was sure he got the bloke back, by swinging the rifle round and picking this bloke off the ground by usage of his groin region, my father is sure of this as 1) The gentlemen was wearing black balaclava, black bomber jacket, cammo trousers and 2) carrying a hurling stick. Only problem he had, was he broke the wooden butt of the SLR, and hated the new plastic one because you could not "slightly alter" the butt to fit your shoulder properly, with a simple bit of wood carving But I will say this, if ya want to stop a raging bull, and your marksman just put 10 rounds in its head with his SLR, make sure the Gimpy is loaded.
__________________
Newbie DM/PM/GM Semi-experienced player Mostly a sci-fi nut, who plays a few PC games. I do some technical and vehicle drawings in my native M20 scale. - http://braden1986.deviantart.com/
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#48
10-28-2010, 05:57 AM
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A friend told me about how he was on a winter exercise in the bush with Cadets and was charged by a starving wolverine. The beast was so low that only the top of the skull was visible above the snow as it humped furiously towards them. The .22LR bullets fired from their rechambered Lee-Enfields only enraged it without penetrating the skull. The soldier/instructor knew to aim lower and was armed with an FN, finally stopping it. Tony
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#49
10-28-2010, 10:01 AM
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The inability to fire from the left shoulder has never been a problem in my experience, but then my AO was mostly flat desert anyway. Something that was also brought to my attention is that for a weapon 785mm/30.9 inches long, you get 518mm/20.4 inches of barrel. Compared to the M16A2, which according to Wikipedia is 1010mm/39.625 inches long but with a 508mm/20 inch barrel, the advantages of the bullpup design in reducing overall weapon length without the loss of barrel length are obvious. I also wonder if the lack of experience with firearms in the majority of the general UK population helped with the adoption of a bullpup design - the majority of people have never used a 'conventional' layout weapon anyway, so recruits joining the armed forces will have their first experience with an L85. I know that when I have later used rifles like the M16 series on exchanges and suchlike I have not grasped the layout as quickly as someone used to a conventionally laid out rifle might. Unrelated to the bullpup design, but just as a general point, the weapon is unfortunately rather heavy, especially when fitted with a SUSAT (now being replaced by a combined ACOG/reflex sight) and LLM (visible/IR laser/torch thingy), and even more so when you stick a UGL on the end. However, this does mean that the barrel suffers relatively little climb in automatic fire (not that there is ever normally any good reason to be firing bursts of any length), and with the addition of the ops issue vertical foregrip/bipod, makes it very accurate.
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#51
10-28-2010, 10:43 AM
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The Belgian FN-MAG design, and its clones, the L7A2 and the M-240 have to be the best machineguns, almost as good as a M-2HB....and they will probably soldier on longer than the famous "Ma Deuce"!
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#52
10-28-2010, 11:43 AM
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It's better than a .50 purely because I can carry and fire it without assistance! Apparently Heckler & Koch is doing an update of the GPMG for the British forces, made from significantly lighter materials and with a picatinny rail on the top cover, or at least so I read in the various trade magazines we have in the crew room.
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#53
10-28-2010, 12:39 PM
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But there is still something, special about setting up a Ma Deuce on a tripod, setting the H&T...and loading a 500 round belt until the old bitch! Then firing that belt at on old truck...and then taking a look at just how much damage a .50 AP round does... It's almost as much fun as watching Tom & Jerry cartoons with my daughter!
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#54
10-28-2010, 01:22 PM
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We shot up old tank hulks on Lydd ranges with the .50 when we did our training with it. Good times, even if I did slip and burn myself doing a barrel change. GMG's pretty good too, though reassembing the bolt after cleaning is like doing a rubik's cube.
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#55
10-28-2010, 06:01 PM
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The FN MAG or whatever you want to call it has one drawback from what I've heard (we only had the M60) was that there was nothing up front to hold onto when the weapon was hot. Made it a little difficult to carry about in an attack.
Great weapon on a mount or stationary position, but try moving and fighting with it and you run into issues. Now as for destroying things, the .50cal has nothing on a hundred kilos of ANFO.... 
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#57
10-28-2010, 06:40 PM
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Yes, I'd heard the carrying handle was the only thing that could be used, however it's not exactly in the best position for that sort of activity.
A heatshield is in my opinion, an absolute MUST. Sure you can wear a glove, but that reduces your manual dexterity and slow reaction time in the event of a stoppage. Any glove thick enough to cope with the blistering heat is unlikely to allow the fine motorskills required to reload, etc.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#58
10-28-2010, 07:22 PM
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To be honest, for speed of movement in and especially out of firing positions (which with a GPMG, are going to be prone) whilst on the attack, the carrying handle is actually better than carrying it in a conventional fashion. Grab gun, run to next position, gun down, you go down behind it, then when you get up you just grab it by the handle and leg it forward again. That's how we used it in the light role, and is how it's supposed to be done on the annual weapons assessment for GPMG when advancing and withdrawing. SF role is a different matter.
Seemed to work at the time. Last edited by perardua; 10-28-2010 at 07:25 PM. Reason: Hit reply too soon
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#59
10-28-2010, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
__________________
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
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#60
10-28-2010, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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