British Army Equipment in the Later Twilight War

[Tackleberry]

As an ex RAF Techie, I was just pointing out with my training, 1 day on a 25m range every 6 months, it was difficult to learn the know how to be able to hit a target consistently at 300m with the SLR.

Its only because I was an Armourer that I had the chance to shoot at 300m, not many non RAF Regt got the opportunity to learn how to shoot at proper distances. Its all down to how many rounds you have the chance to put down range.

More recently I have been able to fire at ranges of upto 1Km and can hit targets that I would have only "suppressed" in my youth.

Now 19 out of 20 rounds on a truck size target with a SCAR H at 900m, with a 4x ACOG sight.

Then 6 rounds out of 20 on 2 man size (fig 11) targets with an L1A1 at 300m, through iron sights.

It shows what a little training can do.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Tackleberry

1 day on a 25m range every 6 months, it was difficult to learn the know how to be able to hit a target consistently at 300m with the SLR.

That's not training! That's criminal!

[Tackleberry]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

That's not training! That's criminal!

That was the RAF in the 80's. The only reason that it was every 6 months was it was RAF Germany and there was a requirement for the Quick reaction force to defend the Nukes.

In the UK, on the non strike bases it was 20 rounds every 12 months.

I'm more concerned that the situation is worse now with the majority of the RAF not live firing, but firing on the laser simulator instead. Now that is criminal.

[perardua]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

That's not training! That's criminal!

The RAF long ago decided that in the contest between whether someone was a soldier or a tradesman, the tradesman aspect of their role came first. Certainly at present most RAF personnel will fire on a 25m range twice a year in order to maintain their Common Core Skills/Armed Guard status, unless they are deploying, in which case they will get more training and generally shoot up to whatever Annual Combat Marksmanship Test standard applies to non-infantry.

Obviously the RAF Regiment trains much more regularly, and to much higher standards, but then, we have to make sure the guins don't get disturbed when they are fixing their planes

[perardua]

Originally Posted by Tackleberry

I'm more concerned that the situation is worse now with the majority of the RAF not live firing, but firing on the laser simulator instead. Now that is criminal.

DCCT ranges can't be used for qualification purpose, as I recall, only practice. So they should still live fire. And as mentioned, anyone deploying will get a lot more live firing before they head out.

[Tackleberry]

Originally Posted by perardua

Obviously the RAF Regiment trains much more regularly, and to much higher standards, but then, we have to make sure the guins don't get disturbed when they are fixing their planes

Or having a kip.

[perardua]

Bunch of jack bastards, the lot of you.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Tackleberry

Or having a kip.

LOL...cheers mate...just had to wipe the coffee of the computer screen...

Nice one...

[TiggerCCW UK]

We're being over run by crab air..... :-)

As far as the accuracy of the L85 etc goes, most of my experience was with the L98 cadet GP rifle, and to be honest I could barely hit the side of a barn with it. From inside the barn. At the same time, using the L81A1 target rifle I was shooting consistent 2" groups at 600 yards with iron sights. I didn't use the L85A1 much (for some reason they were a bit leery of giving sprog cadets automatic weapons...) but I found it to be similar with iron sights, but the SUSAT definitely made a difference.

[perardua]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

We're being over run by crab air..... :-)

As far as the accuracy of the L85 etc goes, most of my experience was with the L98 cadet GP rifle, and to be honest I could barely hit the side of a barn with it. From inside the barn. At the same time, using the L81A1 target rifle I was shooting consistent 2" groups at 600 yards with iron sights. I didn't use the L85A1 much (for some reason they were a bit leery of giving sprog cadets automatic weapons...) but I found it to be similar with iron sights, but the SUSAT definitely made a difference.

Someone has to represent the British military!

The L98, in my opinion, has little to do with the L85 (either model) other than being the same general shape, and should never be spoken of again due to it's possibly satanic origins. Awful, awful weapon. The L85A2, on the other hand, as I will keep saying, is an accurate and extremely reliable rifle with the added feature of being unlikely to be stolen, as no-one else wants one.

[Tackleberry]

Ex Crab air, I deal mainly with the Provisional wing of the AA (REME) at the moment.

The L85A2 is possibly the most accurate 5.56 assault rifle I have fired, but its also the heaviest. The new magpul plastic mags are the D's B's, 2/3rds of the weight of the H&K metal ones, and you can tell how much you have left in the mag.

The Bullpup configuration means that the barrel is still 21" long so the MV is high enough to still do damage at 300/400m, the same cannot be said for the M4/M16 clones that have 16" or 11" barrels.

Another decent weapon is the new L129 Sharpshooter, the matched barrel really gives the edge in accuracy, it outshoots the HK417 IMO.

[Tackleberry]

Originally Posted by perardua

Someone has to represent the British military!

The L98, in my opinion, has little to do with the L85 (either model) other than being the same general shape, and should never be spoken of again due to it's possibly satanic origins. Awful, awful weapon. The L85A2, on the other hand, as I will keep saying, is an accurate and extremely reliable rifle with the added feature of being unlikely to be stolen, as no-one else wants one.

The L98A2 is just a L85A2 without the change lever, easy to change back if the balloon goes up again.

[perardua]

Having left cadets before the introduction of the L98A2, it's not something I have any knowledge of, though it seems like a pretty sensible weapon for cadet use. But the L98A1 creates unreasonable anger in me to this day. Not that it matters, I'm all about the 81mm...

[TiggerCCW UK]

Likewise I never used the A2 variant of either the L98 or the L85, merely the old bolt action A1. I can remember the first time I came across them, at Ballykinler when we were down for a practice session prior to the NISAM. My initial impression was 'Wow!', primarily becasue they looked so much nicer and shinier than the old .303's I was sued to using. Sadly that soon went to the board. I lifted the L98, pulled back the cocking handle to carry out my NSP's and immediately encountered a problem - the cocking handle came off in my hand....

Although I was only a cadet, and later instructor (asthma kept me out of the regs), we did touch lucky a few times and get to play with some toys we really shouldn't have - SLR's, Mini-14s and Sterlings (then RUC issue), MP-5s, an M16A1 on one occasion, GPMG's, Brens etc, and with pretty much everything I ever shot I did better than the L98 Even handguns! I have however heard good things about the A2. On the flip side of that I have to say I never found much of a difference in the quality of my shooting with the L85A1 in comparison to the L98A1, just didn't like it at all, and found it very butt heavy and unbalanced, but as I say I never used it that much. Perardura, you're right the L98A1 was satans spawn - given a choice between it and a .303 I know which I'd rather have.

And gents, I'm only slagging about the crabs - its good to see more brits on here, and I recognise and appreciate your service.

[Tackleberry]

The L98A1 was a piece of junk and was probably more dangerous than giving cadets L85's.
While cocking the weapon, if it didn't fall apart as has been previously mentioned, it had a habit of making the end of the barrel rise above the target line on the range. Sometimes even above the wall behind the range.

The biggest advantage of the L85 was the SUSAT sight, and now the ACOG or ELCAN sights that really improve the accuracy. From just being able to hit the target at 300m, now you can choose where you want to hit them, if you have the time.

[TiggerCCW UK]

I liked the SUSAT, although I only used it a couple of times. I heard some problems about it though, that it had a tendency to rust up in jungle conditions and that because squaddies used it so much there was a risk of losing peripheral awareness, but I guess thats true of any type of scope.

Does anyone know if there are many .303's left in stores anywhere in the UK? I could see Home Guard type militia units getting them if there are.

[Tackleberry]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

I liked the SUSAT, although I only used it a couple of times. I heard some problems about it though, that it had a tendency to rust up in jungle conditions and that because squaddies used it so much there was a risk of losing peripheral awareness, but I guess thats true of any type of scope.

Does anyone know if there are many .303's left in stores anywhere in the UK? I could see Home Guard type militia units getting them if there are.

The only .303" rifles left are in museums or private collections. All of the weapons the Cadet forces have should have been returned as there is a new DP version of the L98 for the Cadets.

There are pallets full of scrap DP .303 rifles in the stores at Donnington.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Thats a shame I wonder how many are knocking around in private hands, and how plentiful ammo would be for them.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

Thats a shame I wonder how many are knocking around in private hands, and how plentiful ammo would be for them.

I know a pub in Edinburgh which used to have one in a display case (along with a whole host of Sherlock Holmes memorabilia - the pub was just along the road from Arthur Conan Doyle's birthplace and played on that to catch the tourist trade). I can only but presume it was either a replica or deactivated!

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I know a pub in Edinburgh which used to have one in a display case (along with a whole host of Sherlock Holmes memorabilia - the pub was just along the road from Arthur Conan Doyle's birthplace and played on that to catch the tourist trade). I can only but presume it was either a replica or deactivated!

The pub might be like 'The Winchester' in Shaun of the Dead...

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Tackleberry

The L98A1 was a piece of junk and was probably more dangerous than giving cadets L85's.
While cocking the weapon, if it didn't fall apart as has been previously mentioned, it had a habit of making the end of the barrel rise above the target line on the range. Sometimes even above the wall behind the range.

The biggest advantage of the L85 was the SUSAT sight, and now the ACOG or ELCAN sights that really improve the accuracy. From just being able to hit the target at 300m, now you can choose where you want to hit them, if you have the time.

At least the L98A1 will be rare in TW2000 as it was planned to convert them to L85A1s.

[Legbreaker]

.303 SMLE's? I have two with match grade floating barrels...

Shame they're stuck a thousand kilometres away and I have no way to get them across the water to me...

[Ironside]

I was hoping to come back with more stuff by now but my health issues mean I'm going to have to take more time off. I'll be back when I can.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Ironside

I was hoping to come back with more stuff by now but my health issues mean I'm going to have to take more time off. I'll be back when I can.

That bodes ill...the last person on this board who had a serious health issue was TR

[Legbreaker]

I suppose a high percentage of forum members with health issues is to be expected since a large number are ex servicemen who've picked up injuries or mental illness.

I myself earned a couple of dodgy knees - relatively minor considering....

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I suppose a high percentage of forum members with health issues is to be expected since a large number are ex servicemen who've picked up injuries or mental illness.

I myself earned a couple of dodgy knees - relatively minor considering....

Stress: and the results from it. Go from Fallujah and its fun times right into a crooked Recruiting BN within months of each other, and it does a whammy. More the blowback from when you finally crack (No, you can't see mental health because you are behind mission...) than the stress itself in my case.

[Legbreaker]

Very true, the stress itself is often rather minor when compared to what the military puts you through when you fall apart. In my experience in the early to mid 90's there was almost no support available for stress and mental issues and anyone who did try and ask for help was treated as total scum.
Times are changing, but the culture of "hard men only" still exists.

The Army's method of dealing with mental illness is to medically discharge the effected soldier asap and then ignore them. Basically dump them unsupported back into civilian life after years of a structured and regimental environment. Unsurprisingly many don't cope, stressed as they already are and end up taking extreme measures up to and including taking their own life.

It's a deplorable situation. Been through it myself but came out the other side in basically one piece.