*Post*-TDM armor production.

[Legbreaker]

Speaking of the M113, I once had a group of PCs find the M113 in Grenada. After getting it running they promptly drove into the heart of the Cuban controlled area and ended the conflict.

It's amazing what you can do with just one lightly armoured vehicle when nobody has any weapon capable of stopping you.

[HorseSoldier]

Sad thing is since the war the M1 Plant in Warren, MI had been fully decommission. We are selling off our goods and not being able to replace them. Both Iraqi campaigns have give us causes to be too lax. But that is another story...

Big ticket items that require specialized facilities and equipment are a hard sell whenever they aren't running multiple shifts cranking product out as fast as possible, and global just-in-time economics surely isn't helping.

[Legbreaker]

Found this while searching around for info to help round out my proposed Australian OOB for Korea.
And yes, that really is a 25mm AA gun on top of an M113....
http://www.australian-armour.com/vehicles-3cav.htm

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I wouldn't write off the Japanese reluctance to deploy abroad. Look at what happened when a medical unit was sent to the middle east a couple of years ago - it almost brought down the government even though they weren't combat troops but there for humanitarian reasons.

No, Japanese troops would remain firmly within Japanese borders unless something absolutely catastrophic occurred.

This isn't to say their produce wouldn't be exported or that western units wouldn't be welcome to spend R&R in the country (while transportation to and fro was still possible).

like T2K ...?

Japan has oil and food for possibly 6 months - after that its lights out and starvation. Being the only stable nation in the region it would have to aquire some petrochemicals and foodstuffs somewhere.

Its said that Japan could start today and have a weaponized nuclear device before 6 months have passed. I think they could reverse engineer and improve something like an AFV in a lot shorter time than that. As for materials - they could probably scrap such enormous amounts of metal from domestic consumer and industrial stocks that they could build hundreds if not thousands.

I dont think Japan would adopt an irresponsible stance though - they could be seen as deploying military assets to get their way. But also I think they would seek influence through humanitarian projects - like the distribution of pharmaceuticals - a commodity moreprecious than gold in T2K

-all imho h for humble as always

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Found this while searching around for info to help round out my proposed Australian OOB for Korea.
And yes, that really is a 25mm AA gun on top of an M113....
http://www.australian-armour.com/vehicles-3cav.htm

Umm.... that's a stock M2HB with a flash suppressor mounted on the muzzle. You can tell because the flash suppressor is pretty distinctive, and you can see the perforated barrel support/heat jacket of the fifty just past the armour plate.

[Legbreaker]

I do believe you are correct. It appears the author of the page got it rather wrong.
It wouldn't surprise me however if somebody did try something like that. During Vietnam a number of weapon fits were tried on M113s by the Australians including multiple .30 cals, .50 cals, and even one with an M134 borrowed from a Huey gunship. This last one didn't last very long as a viable option - it was apparently like firing 10 M60s all at the one location, and a complete and utter waste of ammo (but sooooo much fun!)

[HorseSoldier]

I've often wondered why no one tried fitting the 20mm commanders cupola from the M114 armored recce vehicle on an M113 ACAV in the Vietnam era, but I'm not aware of anyone trying it. Might be because that particular 20mm gun had reliability issues, or might have been tried and I just haven't heard about it.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I've often wondered why no one tried fitting the 20mm commanders cupola from the M114 armored recce vehicle on an M113 ACAV in the Vietnam era, but I'm not aware of anyone trying it. Might be because that particular 20mm gun had reliability issues, or might have been tried and I just haven't heard about it.

There were prototypes with that cupola fitted to the M113 or various 20mm autocannons fitted to several different cupolas and turrets, but none of them got into production. Some never made it past the mock-up phase. Eventually, they skipped the whole idea and went on to develop what became the Bradley.

[Legbreaker]

Personally I prefer the Saladin and Scimitar turrets as fitted to some M113s here in Australia. How can you go wrong with a 76mm cannon on an APC?

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I do believe you are correct. It appears the author of the page got it rather wrong.
It wouldn't surprise me however if somebody did try something like that. During Vietnam a number of weapon fits were tried on M113s by the Australians including multiple .30 cals, .50 cals, and even one with an M134 borrowed from a Huey gunship. This last one didn't last very long as a viable option - it was apparently like firing 10 M60s all at the one location, and a complete and utter waste of ammo (but sooooo much fun!)

Not to mention pics of M-113s mounting 106mm or 90mm recoilless rifles.

An E-8 multiple tear gas launcher, mounted on the front slope.

Flamethrower mounted, both a field expident M-2 and something FMC was playing with...

There is also a pic of a M-113 mounting a 20mm cannon on the TCs mount.

Another with a Honeywell hand-cranked 40mm grenade launcher in the tail gunner's spot.

There is also a story floating around that the 11th ACR traded for a breech-loading 81mm mortar from the Coast Guard....never have seen pics but there are so many people claiming to have seen it.

[TrailerParkJawa]

In the v1 world the M113 factory in San Jose would certainly still be in production right up to TDM. The nukes that hit the Bay Area would not damage the factory as they are too far away. The problem after the nuke exchange is now where are they gonna get all the parts, metal, etc, from sub-contractors scattered all over the country as I doubt they made everything right there on the premises.

The factory, in my mind, might still be useful though since it would have lots of tools and expertise to help turn out technicals or home brew mods. Assuming you can provide power and keep the employees from scattering to the winds.

[Legbreaker]

My guess is the factory was actually a primary target rather than the city itself. Any damage to the city would probably be either a byproduct of the attack on the M113 factory, from another warhead in the MIRV, or both.

[rcaf_777]

I looked at TACOM (Tank-automotive and Armaments Command) and I would thinks that most of it's factories would be intact since the are away from major centers or places that nukes fell, they could also some materials or parts on hand I mean are looters going to try and haul a tank tranmission or oil and gas on the site? given the sitution in Twilight I woud'nt be supprised if the workforce is nearby the plants formed into some sort of State Guard or Milita unit.

Here are TACOM Major Plants

Warren, MI
Red River, TX
Rock Island, IL
Anniston, AL
Watervliet, NY
Sierra, CA

[Legbreaker]

The list of targets in the book only shows the larger nuke sites. Valuable strategic targets such as these would almost HAVE to have been attacked, and probably by something that wouldn't be overkill.
Leaving them intact is just plain incomprehensible.

[schnickelfritz]

I would agree that the TACOM sites, especially the Watervliet arsenal (manufacturer of cannon barrels) would be on the hit list. However, it is also entirely possible that those responsible for making that call were incapacitated, had enough of the destruction, or the delivery devices were destroyed. The ICBM's may have been hit in silo, gone off course, or the SLBM's tasked with their destruction may be sitting in a debris field beyond crush depth. I believe the Soviets/Russians had problems with some of their solid fuel engines (SS-24, some SS-25, some SLBM), so you could have had misfires or duds.

With that said, it's your game to run as you like. If you want your game's "devastation setting" to be "at 11", wipe these sites out too.

I look at it that if the canon material doesn't say it's gone, it ain't gone. It may not be functional (lack of materials, personnel, or power), but it isn't irradiated debris either. I point to "Lima Incident" in Challenge Magazine as an example.

My $.05

-Dave

[Legbreaker]

It's worth noting the books only detail those nuclear targets which received 250 kilotonnes or more. This essentially rules out almost every sub launched missile and possibly even aircraft delivered weapons as well.

So it's very possible, even probable that what is shown on the maps and in the books is just a small percentage of actual strikes.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Personally I prefer the Saladin and Scimitar turrets as fitted to some M113s here in Australia. How can you go wrong with a 76mm cannon on an APC?

One of my Favorite versions of the M113

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

One other Possibility is that former truck or automotive plants and facility's could/ would be turned into some sort of production. Granted they may not be the latest and greatest of vehicles, but light afvs are better then no afvs.

Some food for though. Think about how little time it took for the US to tool up for WW2. Say with the disruption of the Nukes, even if it would double or triple. Eventually say like early 2001 its possible that there may be something like Improved Sherman's, Half-tracks, trucks and Prop-driven aircraft being produced.

We were really not much of an Industrial power house at the start of WW2. Get the steel plants and the railroads running again. Dedicate the smaller and older refineries to the wartime production (the ones that were not nuked- yes there are some that people are generally unaware of, one is/was near Casper Wyoming). Jobs would be had. Food could be shipped from the farms to the population centers by trains.

[Legbreaker]

The US had 2-3 years of supplying the British before they became embroiled in the war themselves. Plenty of time to ramp up production of the comparatively primitive designs of the time. Even compared against the contemporary German designs, the Sherman for example was barely adequate and basic.

It would be interesting to see how they may have faired if they'd had a cold start and were trying to produce complex machines such as the Tiger or Panther. Probably better than Germany did, but definitely not as well as IRL.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Here are TACOM Major Plants

Warren, MI
Red River, TX
Rock Island, IL
Anniston, AL
Watervliet, NY
Sierra, CA

If I recall correctly someone did some homebrew stuff on Anniston years ago...from what I remember it was a pretty good write up. It might still be on the net somewhere, but if it is my google fu isn't up to finding it....

[Rockwolf66]

Has anyone else read up on the Armed and Armored Pickup trucks that Los Zetas are useing down in Mexico's drug wars?

Los Monsturos or something like that the news is calling them. The lattest one found is a modified Ford Pickup that can get up to 70mph and is resistant to most mexican small arms. Previous one found could get up to 40 and I've seen a 3rd that looked like a modified Garbage truck or some other vehicle of that size.

At one time I though it was overkill that the El Paso PD had a SAW in it's SWAT inventory...Now I hope they have a Ma Duce that they can fit onto a Bearcat.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Personally I prefer the Saladin and Scimitar turrets as fitted to some M113s here in Australia. How can you go wrong with a 76mm cannon on an APC?

We did the same thing with the FV432 back in the day, slapped a 30mm cannon turret on top.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

We did the same thing with the FV432 back in the day, slapped a 30mm cannon turret on top.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

These were issued to the British part of the Berlin Brigade. In real life they have now been sold off and are used for vehicle paintball - there is an article somewhere on the BBC News site.

[dragoon500ly]

You know, for an excellent source of home built armored vehicles that worked, you may want to reference the 1948 Israeli-Arab War.

Faced with an inability to acquire modern armor (although the Israelis did steal a Comet tank and several Daimler armored cars), most of what they used were standard trucks fitted with sandwich armor. Faced with a shortage of decent armor plate, the Israelis used boiler plate welded to the frame of the vehicle, then then welded another set of boiler plate 2-3 inches out and filled the space with a wide variety of material, everything from gravel to rubber to concrete to wood to tile. It was crude, anything larger than small arms would penetrate, but since most of the Arabs had few, if any, antitank weapons, it worked.

As the war progressed, it would be very likely that the various commanders would horde their remaining stocks of ATGMs for real emergencies. So I can see the possibility of ad hoc sandwich armored vehicles returning.....

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

You know, for an excellent source of home built armored vehicles that worked, you may want to reference the 1948 Israeli-Arab War.

Faced with an inability to acquire modern armor (although the Israelis did steal a Comet tank and several Daimler armored cars), most of what they used were standard trucks fitted with sandwich armor. Faced with a shortage of decent armor plate, the Israelis used boiler plate welded to the frame of the vehicle, then then welded another set of boiler plate 2-3 inches out and filled the space with a wide variety of material, everything from gravel to rubber to concrete to wood to tile. It was crude, anything larger than small arms would penetrate, but since most of the Arabs had few, if any, antitank weapons, it worked.

As the war progressed, it would be very likely that the various commanders would horde their remaining stocks of ATGMs for real emergencies. So I can see the possibility of ad hoc sandwich armored vehicles returning.....

Something like This

Yeah the drug gangs of northern Mexico are building armored combat vehicles.

[schnickelfritz]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It's worth noting the books only detail those nuclear targets which received 250 kilotonnes or more. This essentially rules out almost every sub launched missile and possibly even aircraft delivered weapons as well.

So it's very possible, even probable that what is shown on the maps and in the books is just a small percentage of actual strikes.

I agree that it seems against basic military common sense not to attack the TACOM sites. They most likely were on the target list. Unfortunately, their destruction or survival was never discussed except for the Lima Tank Plant in Challenge Magazine, which survived due to a near miss.

My argument is that by the post-TDM period, the delivery methods may have been destroyed, the number of warheads may have dropped due to losses necessitating their targeting having been changed, or that those in the USSR giving the word may have either had tired of the destruction or been incapacitated themselves, all through a variety of ways.

It could be as simple as a Frigate in the Gulf making a lucky discovery of a SLCM carrying Victor III with the weapons to neutralize Anniston (and/or Rock Island) and putting it on the bottom with a pair of Mark 48's in a chance encounter.

My point is that in the canon material, except for Lima, it isn't stated either way, on the hit lists or in any narrative material that I've ever seen, and I remember ordering Howling Wilderness new from the local comic shop....and being rather disappointed with what I got. Does it really imbalance your average T2K campaign to have them partially/completely intact? I really can't see how. Even if intact, the federal covernment won't have the energy, raw materials, or bodies to run the plants for years to come. They will, however, be rather instrumental in rebuilding the US military.

[TrailerParkJawa]

I alwasy had a more literal interpetation of the target list for the USA proper. I do remember that only attacks of a certain size where listed but ran on the assumption that tonnages less than 250k were reserved for battlefields. Meaning most of them were smaller tacticals.

The plant in San Jose most certainly could be hit by a MIRV from the Benecia attacks but in my mind and the material I created it was just the refineries that were hit.

I had mulled around the idea of a Soviet submarine attackign the plant with a conventional cruise missiles. Hit the plant at lunch time or a shift change and you'd kill a lot of employees and do some good damage. Although in none of the source material did I ever follow up with the idea.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

My guess is the factory was actually a primary target rather than the city itself. Any damage to the city would probably be either a byproduct of the attack on the M113 factory, from another warhead in the MIRV, or both.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Wow, this thread is still going in fits and starts (rather like post TDM armor production would! ha!)

Interesting to note that AAI is located in Hunt Valley, MD. AAI is the primary producer of the RDF/LT (aka "LAV-75"). If Baltimore survived there's a chance some LAV75s could still be rolled out with remaining parts (I'm sure like all defense contracting, sub-assemblies were spread out to hell and gone).

Of course DC is a mere 60 miles away, that could make things impossible.

The LAV family is primarily manufactured at GDLS-Canada; dunno how bad Canada got pasted, nor where the factory for that would have been.

FMC is in Santa Clara so...yeah, no more M113s or Bradleys. Santa Clara is just south of the Bay and everything up that way gets hit pretty bad.

I think for the first 25 or 30 years after the war the best bet would be to keep what you have running, simplify, and when you absolutely positively need a "new" vehicle you put forth a massive effort to cobble one together out of spares.

(Of course my own non-canon Coming Home scenario would see a bunch of AFVs being taken back home - still a bunch left in Germany, too, mind.)